Lift with out the long arms

I am thinking of getting 5" lift .. how much difference does it make with or with out the long arm kit ?? Will my Jeep drive crappy with that much lift if I dont use them ?

I have the 2" BB now with add a leaf, am I better off to keep the BB and get a 4" lift or just take it out and start over ??

Thanks

long arms just reduce the control arm angles by positioning them farther back on the "frame". if you got the RE control arm drop bracket it would be doing almost the same thing.

I was at 6.5" and had no problems in drivabliity or comfort, or even drop brackets

Sounds good I was wanting to end up with 35's or somthing real close

I just didnt want to make it where I couldnt drive it on the highway

LS1Jeep said:

Sounds good I was wanting to end up with 35's or somthing real close

I just didnt want to make it where I couldnt drive it on the highway

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34x10.5 LTB is a very good choice, I drove the highways at 75 without issue

xjnation said:

34x10.5 LTB is a very good choice, I drove the highways at 75 without issue

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Yea I have 245/75/16 MTR's now and I love them So I'll prob get 285 or 305/75/16's
I really want to keep my Liberty wheels they look awsome IMO

LS1Jeep said:

I am thinking of getting 5" lift .. how much difference does it make with or with out the long arm kit ?? Will my Jeep drive crappy with that much lift if I dont use them ?

Click to expand...

To answer your second question pointedly: No, your jeep will not drive crappy with either solution. But it have better handling properties with one over the other.

When comparing long arms to drop brackets you need to determine what your ultimate goal is for your rig. First we need to understand what the differences are:

The short version is that drop brackets restore your short control arm angles so that the setup is closer to stock (after a lift). Long arms improve the arc in which the differential travles when it cycles - be it on the freeway or maxed out on a rock somewhere. Having a longer arc for the control arm allows for the differential to travel in a straighter line during it's cycling but the larger arc/arms now allow for more travel.

Typically drop brackets are cheaper than long arm kits. If you find a case where this is not true, you may want to do a little more research...

Drop brackets are not necessarily easier to install. I have inside information that some LA kits aren't much more difficult if not easier to install.

Drop brackets are bolt-on. Some LA kits are 100% bolt-on and some require some welding. Arguements can be made as to which is better but in the end, the quality of a suspension kit may not have anything to do with what's necessary to install it. A less difficult install is just a bonus.

There are pros and cons to each LA kit when comparing one to another and the same is true when comparing Drop Brackets to the various types of LA kits. There's many threads out there that can do this for you so it's worth searching around a little.

A drop bracket setup runs ~$325 and a LA kit may cost you $750 - $900 depending on what kit you're looking at. If you put together a pros and cons list, make sure you look at what you get in each kit. Your $325 doesn't get you very much when compared to how much more you can get for double that amount.

LS1Jeep said:

I have the 2" BB now with add a leaf, am I better off to keep the BB and get a 4" lift or just take it out and start over ??

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Two different schools of thought here. Either way works and neither is considered bad practice. My personal preference is to run all suspension but there are various components out there (that can both allow tuning and lift of the suspension at the same time) that are well worth looking at.

Matt

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xjnation said:

I was at 6.5" and had no problems in drivabliity or comfort, or even drop brackets...

...I drove the highways at 75 without issue

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This sounds like somethine you'd hear 2 or 3 years ago before radius arms(long arms) or drop brackets were common. Now days, you would only expect it from someone who sits on a pillow or has a fat butt to cushion the bumps. Cruising a glass smooth freeway at 75 MPH isn't a very good test of a suspension. City streets littered with pot holes, railroad tracks and gaping cracks at 30 - 45 MPH will show the difference that decent control arm angles can make.

Above 4" of lift, you'd be wise to seriously consider drop brackets or radius arms.

MaXJohnson said:

This sounds like somethine you'd hear 2 or 3 years ago before radius arms(long arms) or drop brackets were common. Now days, you would only expect it from someone who sits on a pillow or has a fat butt to cushion the bumps. Cruising a glass smooth freeway at 75 MPH isn't a very good test of a suspension. City streets littered with pot holes, railroad tracks and gaping cracks at 30 - 45 MPH will show the difference that decent control arm angles can make.

Above 4" of lift, you'd be wise to seriously consider drop brackets or radius arms.

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He asked if it could be done, and yes it can,


Trust me I dont live anywhere near a smooth road! 7000 ft altitude and average of over 6 ft of snow a year and spent most of the time on mountain roads. and had to cross the railroad tracks to get anywhere. The big difference is most have never actually run it and speak from hearsay.

I did I ran RE short arms with 5.5" spring and 1" spacer, with 33x9.5 big o xt's. I put 30,000 plus miles on it with that setup, ran class 4+ trails on a weekly basis and used as my DD and never had major DW problems. Was it the optimal setup? NO, but it drove very well and handled the mountain roads very without swaybars comfortably

I did run the RE drop brakcets and support brackets (bought from handlebars) but took em off after 2 weeks the stock lower control arm brackets would flex a good deal (caused by the additional height) while cornering on the road and did not like the loss of ground clearance on the trail (hung up several times.)

The new MJ Im building has a 3 link,(experimenting) the 01 will be using the T&T Y-link, I still feel it to be the best system on the market to date.

xjnation said:

He asked if it could be done, and yes it can,

Click to expand...

"I am thinking of getting 5" lift .. how much difference does it make with or with out the long arm kit ?? Will my Jeep drive crappy with that much lift if I dont use them ?

I have the 2" BB now with add a leaf, am I better off to keep the BB and get a 4" lift or just take it out and start over ??

Thanks"

I'm not seeing the "can it be done" in there...

xjnation said:

Trust me I dont live anywhere near a smooth road! 7000 ft altitude and average of over 6 ft of snow a year and spent most of the time on mountain roads. and had to cross the railroad tracks to get anywhere. The big difference is most have never actually run it and speak from hearsay.

I did I ran RE short arms with 5.5" spring and 1" spacer, with 33x9.5 big o xt's. I put 30,000 plus miles on it with that setup, ran class 4+ trails on a weekly basis and used as my DD and never had major DW problems. Was it the optimal setup? NO, but it drove very well and handled the mountain roads very without swaybars comfortably

I did run the RE drop brakcets and support brackets (bought from handlebars) but took em off after 2 weeks the stock lower control arm brackets would flex a good deal (caused by the additional height) while cornering on the road and did not like the loss of ground clearance on the trail (hung up several times.)

The new MJ Im building has a 3 link,(experimenting) the 01 will be using the T&T Y-link, I still feel it to be the best system on the market to date.

Click to expand...

very impressive, but, even if you are trustworthy and you live on a rough road, at high altitude, in the snow, drive all day long, over lots of tracks, and never had DW in 30,000 miles of smoooooth driving, with no sway bars,

steep control arm angles will still result in a rougher ride.

implying otherwise is doing a disservice to anyone coming to for advice.

MaXJohnson said:

"I am thinking of getting 5" lift .. how much difference does it make with or with out the long arm kit ?? Will my Jeep drive crappy with that much lift if I dont use them ?

I have the 2" BB now with add a leaf, am I better off to keep the BB and get a 4" lift or just take it out and start over ??

Thanks"

I'm not seeing the "can it be done" in there...


very impressive, but, even if you are trustworthy and you live on a rough road, at high altitude, in the snow, drive all day long, over lots of tracks, and never had DW in 30,000 miles of smoooooth driving, with no sway bars,

steep control arm angles will still result in a rougher ride.

implying otherwise is doing a disservice to anyone coming to for advice.

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I never said it was better but very acceptable.

I believe I also mentioned it was not the optimal system.

scorpion nice reply!

Thanks for your help Im going to order tires Friday 285/75/16 MTR's
and save for a bigger kit.

LS1Jeep said:

Thanks for your help Im going to order tires Friday 285/75/16 MTR's
and save for a bigger kit.

Click to expand...

I'm running 285's on 3" with no issue, altough my FenderZ have been seriously reworked to the point of cutting and welding them back together... If you are going to this size tire 4.5" is all that is needed, PERIOD!

The minimum setup required is a set of adjustable lower control arms; however they come with a hit in performance. With using adjustable lowers only you can manipulate the caster and pinion angle back to a liveable value, you cannot correct the wheel base. The axle will move reward with only using one arm that is adjustable, simple math. Does it work? For the most part...

The next level of performance will come from adjustable lowers and uppers. While most will say that you only need lowers (MFGs included), IMO you need both. By having both upper and lower adjustable arms you can increase the length of both to correct the wheelbase dimension. Why? to keep the tire out of the back of the wheel well and keep it centered in the opening. Also with both upper and lower adjustables you can dial the caster angle and pinion angles in without compromize. Also with longer uppers you decrease the radical changes in caster angle as the suspension cycles. With only having adjustable lowers and stock length uppers the front axle (pinion) will rotate down as the suspension droops. While it does this stock or with adjustble uppers it is not as severe a change as when you increase the length of the lower and not the upper.

The next level would be drop brackets combined with adjustable arms. This will flatten out the control arm geometry and get it close to stock. With the 5 link design of the XJ front suspension all impact loads are transferred back to the control arm mounts. The more linear you can make that force the better the suspesnsion works when encountering obstacles. whether potholes, stumps or rocks... Look at your stock suspension at rest in your driveway. The arms (without lift) are almost parralel to the ground and the frontal impacts are transferred directly rearward into the control arm mounts. Now lift the vehicle and the control arms point downward, the more the lift the more the angle. That front imapct load is now transferred to the rear into the control arm brackets but it is also pushing down on them. Counter active to the front wheel trying to climb up and over something... This is the main reason for the invention of drop brackets, i.e to level the control arms out again after a lift is installed. The down side is loss of ground clearance and expense, also the current offerings are not an easy install...

The ultimate in suspesnsion performance (that doesn't include custom one offs) is the long arm setup.

As mentioned above, make a logical comparison. It all boils down to what you are able to afford and the level of performance you are looking for. To get the best performance out of a short arm setup, i.e. adjustable uppers and lowers with drop brackets you are at or beyond the cost of a good LA kit.

:worship: :worship: :worship: :worship:

Very informative thread. This one ought to be bookmarked.

Rock Yacht said:

The next level of performance will come from adjustable lowers and uppers. While most will say that you only need lowers (MFGs included), IMO you need both. By having both upper and lower adjustable arms you can increase the length of both to correct the wheelbase dimension. Why? to keep the tire out of the back of the wheel well and keep it centered in the opening. Also with both upper and lower adjustables you can dial the caster angle and pinion angles in without compromize. Also with longer uppers you decrease the radical changes in caster angle as the suspension cycles. With only having adjustable lowers and stock length uppers the front axle (pinion) will rotate down as the suspension droops. While it does this stock or with adjustble uppers it is not as severe a change as when you increase the length of the lower and not the upper.

Click to expand...

Here is a pic of the xj with adj short arms and no drop brackets, with 33x9.5 tires, its a good illustration of how far back in the wheel well the wheel is at droop.

It worked well with the narrow tires but as you could tell steering would have been severly limited if tire was wider,

so even with the RE 4.5 kit it will still look like your pic with the wheel all folded back against the fender ?

it has top and bottom arms it appears on there site
RE6130 Components Component Quantity
U-BOLT KIT 2.75"X9.0" 1
CONTROL ARM SF2 LOWER FIXED 1
CONTROL ARM SR2 UPPER FT FIX 1
Gen2 Sway Bar Disconnects TJ/XJ 2" - 3.5"+ 1
T-CASE LOWERING KIT XJ/ZJ 1
BRAKE LINE SS REAR XJ/ZJ 1
TRACK BAR XJ/MJ/ZJ/TJ 3"+ 1
COIL SPRINGS XJ 4.5" 1
3.5" EXTREME DUTY XJ REAR SPRING 2
BUMP STOP 2" FRT XJ/ZJ/TJ 1
SHACKLE XJ REAR 1.25" LIFT 1
U-Bolts YJ Dana 35 Rear 1
BRAKE LINES SS FT XJ/MJ/ZJ/C

LS1Jeep said:

so even with the RE 4.5 kit it will still look like your pic with the wheel all folded back against the fender ?

it has top and bottom arms it appears on there site
RE6130 Components Component Quantity
U-BOLT KIT 2.75"X9.0" 1
CONTROL ARM SF2 LOWER FIXED 1
CONTROL ARM SR2 UPPER FT FIX 1
Gen2 Sway Bar Disconnects TJ/XJ 2" - 3.5"+ 1
T-CASE LOWERING KIT XJ/ZJ 1
BRAKE LINE SS REAR XJ/ZJ 1
TRACK BAR XJ/MJ/ZJ/TJ 3"+ 1
COIL SPRINGS XJ 4.5" 1
3.5" EXTREME DUTY XJ REAR SPRING 2
BUMP STOP 2" FRT XJ/ZJ/TJ 1
SHACKLE XJ REAR 1.25" LIFT 1
U-Bolts YJ Dana 35 Rear 1
BRAKE LINES SS FT XJ/MJ/ZJ/C

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That is the same basic parts I used except for adjustable control arms and national rear leafs, the 5.5" springs , and

without the drop brakcets yes, that is just what it will work like, the only difference is I was sitting 2" higher. so for optimal performance on that lift you are limited to a 10.5" wide tire or less and stock backspaced rims . so you will still be able to turn lock to lock at full stuff/droop

when i was at 6" with short arms in stock location

it sucked

there was a loud BANG with every bump in the road (my LCA hitting aginst the bolts - ProComp poly bushings are pretty crappy)

I did not have any death wobble - i did not have any sucky steering or scarry stuff going on, just a VERY rough ride...

after raising my axle end mounts 2.5" with my new front axle - it rides very noticeably better - and pushes the font axle forward about an inch.

personaly - id look into making the angles better...

For What Its Worth -
me on 6" with short arms: (click for fullsize pic)


i still need to flex out my front end now with no shocks and see what binds and go from there, but i garantee its better - just cuse the LCA's have more angle to go down before they bind

for what its worth - i agree with MaxJohnson on this one...