explain to me - illegal (non DOT) steering

rod ends, threaded inserts, and the whole bit

is taped thread in tube stronger than weld in inserts?
does anyone roll the threads on their weld in inserts?

a 3/4" x 3/4" rod end is:
a. 3/4" bolt hole with a 3/4" threaded stud welded to it
b. 3/4" stud welded to a heim with a 3.4" bolt hole
c. 3/4" stud with some other bolt hole
d. 3/4" bolt with some other stud...

are bigger rod ends better?
should i spend the coin on 1 1/4" rod ends for steering?
can i even drill my knuckle that big?

i envision a true crossover steering system for my XJ with completely independant drag link and tie rods.

draglink rod ends over the knuckle on both sides (one right hand and one left hand - does it matter which is which?) and the drag link attaches to the same spot as the passenger side rod end for the tie rod - stacked on top.
All heims.
drag link also has alternating heims (one left hand and one right hand threads with jam nuts on both ends)

Is there a specific company that i should get as far as rod ends?
what wall tube for steering - im thinking .188 (3/6" wall would be perfect)?

the "misalignment spacers" - what is the deal with thoes?


and to be the most n00bish ever:

TIA!
-Opie!

oh yeah - and i read this one:
http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billavista/Steering/Steering_Index/SteeringIndex.htm

I've enjoyed very, very good luck with my steering. I'm useing FK bearing 3/4 bore, 3/4 shank heims for all joints including at the pitman. For the links themselves I use 1 1/4 OD X 11?16 id which gives you a .281 wall thickness. The 11/16 is the correct id for 3/4" tap. I drill out the knuckles & pitman to 3/4" & bolt it all together with gd 8 hardware. Never have had a faliure yet (knock on wood). I use the same stuff for my track bar & will probably use it for my upper links when I link out the rear of the CAT.

Matt

i think the strength is there with the 3/4" rod ends but the nice thing about getting the 1-1/4 rod ends is that you can make misalignment bushings that allow them more range of motion when used in a draglink. when i first installed mine (3/4") they were binding at normal ride height (no high steer just crosover steering.) i had to make some bushings that allowed them to move further now they are maxed out just as my shocks max out so i'm not loosing anything (yet)


o yea farmer matt do you have high steer or is that a 7" grade eight:gag:

I use the IDENTICAL setup FarmerMatt uses. I have had the same setup on 2 rigs. NEVER had a single problem.

Poser shot of the first setup


Poser shot of the New rig


I know this a turdy, but the material wont change when I go to 1 tons and 40s with hydro. The nice thing about the thick DOM is that it can flex, and MAY bend, but you have to hit a wall at about 45 mph to do so. Right Matt :laugh3:

I cant give you an absolute factual yes or no whether threaded bung are weaker tapped material. But I would THINK that drect threading would be MUCH stronger. One less weld to fail dont you think?

On the D30, 3/4" holes in the knucle are about as big as you can go. As well as a stock pitman arm. The 44s may beable to take a 1" but you would still have to have a 3/4" joint at the pitman. I have only seen one Hiem Joint fail, and it was a 14mm steering joint. So very similar to a 5/8" hiem.

Any joint that cost some serious $$$ is a good one. Stay away from the $15 dollars and less. I think the FKs are around 28 bucks a pop? I may be wrong, but I know they aint cheap.

Misalignment spacers are very necessary if you want to have full range of travel of the joints. You really CANT build a proper steering system with out these.

FarmerMatt said:

I've enjoyed very, very good luck with my steering. I'm useing FK bearing 3/4 bore, 3/4 shank heims for all joints including at the pitman. For the links themselves I use 1 1/4 OD X 11?16 id which gives you a .281 wall thickness. The 11/16 is the correct id for 3/4" tap. I drill out the knuckles & pitman to 3/4" & bolt it all together with gd 8 hardware. Never have had a faliure yet (knock on wood). I use the same stuff for my track bar & will probably use it for my upper links when I link out the rear of the CAT.

Matt

Click to expand...

Looks like your running highsteer w/ crossover. Why is it that most setups i see with highsteer use an inverted T setup?

thanks guys

so scrappy - you are running the tie rod under the knuckle and the drag link on top, so there is a joint on each side of the steering knuckle on the passenger side - that seems like the strongest way to go - however

what if i were to put the tie rod over the knuckle and then "stack" the rod ends so that the drag link mounts ontop of the tie rod at the passenger knuckle?
would that be less safe? - there would be more torque on the bolt that holds it all together, but could it be tightened down enough to be safe?

did you have any issues with clearance as far as spring buckets and trackbar mounts?
I am going to be running a modified stock spring bucket and the JKS OAB (unless it gets here and is too short...)

This is really helpful - thanks guys

Jeepkid8037 said:

Looks like your running highsteer w/ crossover. Why is it that most setups i see with highsteer use an inverted T setup?

Click to expand...

inverted 2 is a bit easier, becasue you only need to mount the tie road on the knuckles, and the drag link can be bolted easily to a bracket on teh tie-rod, or to a hole in a TRE. Some high steer arms come with multiple mounting holes though.

Inverted T is also fine on high steer because you won't get the slop of the tie-rod twisting like it does on inverted T with large lift heights. _nicko_

bj-666 said:

o yea farmer matt do you have high steer or is that a 7" grade eight:gag:

Click to expand...

You need glasses... It's more like 9" long.:laugh3: If you look close you'll see that I'm running high steer knuckles. The differenence on mine is that I tied them back into the original steer arms along with having the the bolts on top of the "flat top" knuckles. I don't have a better pic of it handy...

gearwhine said:

inverted 2 is a bit easier, becasue you only need to mount the tie road on the knuckles, and the drag link can be bolted easily to a bracket on teh tie-rod, or to a hole in a TRE. Some high steer arms come with multiple mounting holes though.

Inverted T is also fine on high steer because you won't get the slop of the tie-rod twisting like it does on inverted T with large lift heights. _nicko_

Click to expand...

The only problem with the "T" style steering is that the drag link will have leverage over the tierod & can rotate the tierod causing a "dead" spot in the steering (as gearwhine stated) & can also loosen the joints at the knuckles. Also when adjusting toe you'll have to do it at the knuckle rather than just loosening the jam nuts & twisting the tierod (if you've tapped the threads left hand & the other right hand).

how much of a bend is *safe* in a drag link?
looking at scrappy's setup and wondering to myself - who has a tubing bender?

XJ_ranger said:

how much of a bend is *safe* in a drag link?
looking at scrappy's setup and wondering to myself - who has a tubing bender?

Click to expand...

Go to the BBQ and you'll see everything!

ChuckD said:

Go to the BBQ and you'll see everything!

Click to expand...

i think ill have to now...


took some measurements -
the ford knuckles have 1-3/4" of material compared to the d30 jeep knuckles 1-1/2" of material - so i could probably use a 1" bolt at the knuckles if i wanted, or a JJ for that matter... but i think that 3/4" heims will work...

Clearance wise you cant have sway bar mounts, unless you make some that are very different from stock. I dont need a sway bar. Its a trail rig.

I did try to run both the tie rod and drag link on top of the knuckles, but because of my trackbar mount I would not have full range of steering. So i sacrafice 2 inches of ground clearance for full range of steering. No biggie to me.

IMO do EVERYTHING you can to stay away from the inverted T style. Just seems like a retarded way to do it. Hard as hell to set toe and do simple tweaks to. Two indepent rods is just flat easy to work with. Loosen the jam nuts and twist. Done.

there is no way you need bigger than a 3/4" rodend if you're buying decent ones. tapped directly in the tube is stronger, but not a real big deal if you weld the inserts right. make sure you drill the knuckle perfectly, any slop or wallowing of that hole will create exponential problems with the leverage place on it of a draglink attaching a few inches above.

BrettM said:

there is no way you need bigger than a 3/4" rodend if you're buying decent ones. tapped directly in the tube is stronger, but not a real big deal if you weld the inserts right. make sure you drill the knuckle perfectly, any slop or wallowing of that hole will create exponential problems with the leverage place on it of a draglink attaching a few inches above.

Click to expand...

ill be taking it to a buddy's house with a mill and all thoes goodies and the best freeken clamps i have seen...

ill look around for some 3/4" taps, and ask my machinest friends...

thanks for all the help

what do you guys think about these?
http://bcbroncos.com/store/product_info.php?cPath=37_82&products_id=770
its a TRE taper stud that goes into the already there hole...

that would work well for my passenger side, but the drivers side i need a thru bolt...

as long as you're doing one knuckle, might as well do the other for a through bolt also.

with all the trouble of a D44 swap, why not do real crossover or hi-steer? how much lift is this going to have?

and why do you say it's illegal (non-DOT). are you aware of a CVC that states you can't take off a DOT spec part and replace it with a non-DOT part? Is it illegal for me to run a (non-DOT) PartsMike steering arm?

really the reason that i am not going hi-steer is because i cant afford it...

im looking at 125 shipped for the knuckles, milling on one of them, arms - that adds like $300 to the project - and right now, 300 is huge...

and i also would need to come up with the design for a really tall trackbar mount...

im trying to keep this as low $$$ as possible...
I have 175 into the complete housing and about 30.00 in the steel that i am intending to make the brackets out of (and recycle brackets from the d30)

am trying to save $$$ to buy some bilsteins and dump my fawking es3000's

total lift is about 6"

illegal - i read somewhere that TRE's were legal and some (most) Heim style rod ends are illegal...
mostly - it was an attention getter - i am afterall an e-attention whore...

XJ_ranger said:

illegal - i read somewhere that TRE's were legal and some (most) Heim style rod ends are illegal...
mostly - it was an attention getter - i am afterall an e-attention whore...

Click to expand...

I've heard that as well, but it's always a "my brother's cousin's girlfriend's doctor's plumber told me that..." thing, never any legal material cited. and yes, you are an e-whore.