Attn Farmermat and other radius arm folk....? about wristing...

Hey all, I know that some of you run the ford style radius arms. I was wondering if you've ever wanted to wrist one arm to get more flex. I'm asking this from a theory perspective, 'cause I plan to use rover style arms.

If you have done it, do you feel that you lose all control stability wise? I'm not quite ready to lay out my plans for everyone to critique yet, but I planned to use rubber bushings and no swaybar because I've been told that in the rover setup, the twin radius arms with solid rubber allows for very little flex and is very stiff, which means I can get rid of that pesky swaybar. Anyway, what do you guys think, I was also considering one radius arm and one control arm, and just skipping the wristed setup, but I think I want to radius arms controlling axle twist on the road, especially considering how close together the two mounting points are on the axle. Peace

Ary

No wrist. I like my arms solid. I use all of a 14" travel shock in the front & don't think I need any more.

Matt

Wrist. Definitely wrist. Especially if we're dealing from a theoretical standpoint, there's no question in my mind. The main reason long arms are successful in flexing well is that they travel through a larger arc. This doesn't decrease the bind inherent in the stock radius arm configuartion, it just allows the axle to articulate more before the bind stops it. In a non-wristed setup, you can either have good road manners or good trail flex. Not both. Anyone who says they have both has learned to put up with either bad road manners or limited flex.
Wristing, however, completely eliminates the bind. The articulation with a wristed arm is only limited to the other items - shock length, brake line length, track bar length, etc. Most of the methods to wrist radius arms also leave some way to lock the arm. Either replace the top arm, put a bolt through a hole, crank down on a clamp, etc. With this setup, you can have the best of both worlds. Use all tight urethane bushings or even fewer bushings and you'll get an extremely solid road ride. Unlock the wrist and you'll have as much articulation as you can handle. For example, I have locking wristed arms and on the street when it's locked, the side to side roll is very comparable to stock. This is with 8" of lift and no swaybars. On the trail, if I weren't limited by shock, I'd be limited by the track bar length.

To sum up: lockable wristed. The best of both worlds.

Now what if I were to throw in the fact that I want to retain use of the stock LCA brackets, i.e. my two radius arms would use the LCA mounts on the frame rather than lengthening the arms for a "long arm/radius arm setup" I have several reasons for doing this. 1) my arms would sit perfectly parallel to the ground, 2) I wouldn't have to hack off the frame brackets on my '01(I admit it's purely a fear driven reason, I'm scared of hacking them off), and 3) I won't have to go through fabbing a custom crossmember.

Okay, it seems like I'm gonna lay it out now, so here goes. Twin rover style radius arms, either custom made to use JJs or Montero rear arms with poly bushings. One wristed like this:



The arms will go over the axle and the spring buckets will mount to the tops of the arms themselves. The arms will utilize JJs at the frame end as well

My goal in all of this is to clear under the axle tubes of any brackets, improve my ride(i.e. lessen CA angles), eliminate need of a swaybar on road, and still have gratuitous amounts of flex off-road. So far, I have not been able to find a major design flaw with my idea, if you see one, please point it out. I'm planning to get started on this relatively soon, hopefully I'll have it done by the Cherokee Crawl. As for as I know, no one has used this style of radius arm under an XJ, but they have under numerous other vehicles. I've been talking with a guy that's got in under the back of his TJ and he loves it. Anyway, let me know what you guys think, positive and negative. Thanks again

Ary

Sounds like a great idea. I do recall someone using rover arms on an XJ, but not in this country. I'll see if I can find pics. Another great thing about a lockable radius arm like you pictured is that the shorter the arm is, the greater the swaybar effect when it's locked. I say go for it.

Wrist. Definitely wrist

Click to expand...

You know that the best of teh wristed arm setups over stock non wristed is ony about 3 to 4 inches of droop...according to teh guys at the ranger station....I jsut got back my narrowed HP44 for the front and the moron cut off and threw away the ford radius brackets so Im gonna make my own...just gonna cost me a few hundred more to put teh suspension under teh MJ now..but it will be a radius arm set up with around 39" arms and 15" travel coil overs

Not all wristed arm setups are the same. An improperly done wristed arm setup can be way worse than a standard long arm setup (see rockkrawler for an example of a wristed radius arm that should never see the road). The prevailing design from the guys at the ranger station involve something similar to the rover arm pictured above. They take a stock radius arm, chop it right behind the c-clamp and throw some sort of bolt in there to pivot on. While technically a wristed arm, this design still has bind in it. As the axle droops, the arm twists along its axis to accomodate. It also drops down, obviously. Since the bolt can only swivel in one plane, it'll still bind a bit.
On the other hand, 4 to 5 inches is a significant amount, considering you can achieve all that without sacrificing any sway control like you do with standard long arms. I gain probably closer to 10 inches on my setup, but I run a very different radius arm from what is pictured above.

WAH wristed axle housing BC Broncos...

http://www.bcbroncos.com/WAH.gif

I like the rear shackle pivot things too

Ok, so poly bushings are out I think, because they'd limit travel too much, making the road ride intolerable. Think I'll stick to rubber, but other than that, I think this will work. Anyone else have anything to contribute?? Thanks

Ary

Why is the swaybar pesky?

If you have a daily driven rig and wheel often is taking 4 minutes to disco that stressful?

Ary and I discussed this but I'm just making a point. I wheel with many rover folks and while no, the earlier rangies don't have swaybars, and the later guys who go big don't run them, it SUCKS on the street on a rig with 3" of lift.

When you compare Flex on road in a driving situation, as it relates to those bushings they will deflect TONS on a lifted rig. No, they won't flex a lot on a ramp, but the stressed and leverage is much different than at 45mpg around a corner or in a panic manouver.

Try it Ary, but don't forget where you left that swaybar. You indeed stand to gain some articulation, but be careful.

What happened to evening out flex? I thought you had too much up front and not enough in the back?

RJ, I've tried to explain in this thread my main motives for doing this swap, but here they are again:

1) Improved ride
2) Improved clearance
and lastly 3) Improved handling

The side benefits I hope to gain, are:

1) more fluid flex when un-pinned
2) more articulation overall(not sure if that will be the case with the arms so short)

Now that I think about it, Matt, aren't you running poly C-bushings?? I've seen pictures and you definately don't have a lack of flex. How is your on-road ride, do you still run a swaybar? or did your combination of springs, shocks, and bushings tighten everything up enough to get rid of the swaybar. Also, as for gaining more flex in the rear and stiffening the front, I'm trying to do this(maybe I should go poly afterall), but I have to get my new HP30 under the rig because of the gears that are in it, and a couple of the stock brackets are toast.... Thanks

Ary

P.S. BTW, IMHO this is where the old style board would have been better, because the thread's topic has changed direction slightly and I think a lot more people would contribute if they new what we were talking about in here....(just making a general statement)

You said Pesky swaybar :flip:

And then last week complained about too much front flex and needing to even things out

TOZOVR said:

You said Pesky swaybar :flip:

And then last week complained about too much front flex and needing to even things out

Click to expand...

Alright asshat, I'm about to own youD)

I said pesky swaybar because I don't like it, it makes my Jeep violently sway back and forth when I enter a parking lot at any kind of angle. As for the rear flex, I've got plans for it too. I just figured I could fix my front suspension by doing this suspension setup. Thanks

Ary

Edit: RJ and I are good friends and just engaging in a little friendly ribbin.

Asshat?

Right but initially it was a concern/reason for going with the Rover style...Fix as in how? What is wrong?

Just decide with what color anodizing you want on your new blingslingin wheels and stop harassing Matt and the rest of the guys....






BAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA


Good thing your my friend and showed me around Georgetown or I'd take ya apart!

Ok RJ, I have too much sway with my current setup, sans swaybar. If I hookup my swaybar the ride becomes intolerably stiff and beats me up when approching any sort of incline at an angle(like a parking lot entrance). I believe that with the Rover style arms, I will be able to stiffen my setup in regards to sway by using poly bushings(already have relatively stiff shocks, Bilstein 5100s), improve my straight line ride characteristics because the arms will be parrallel to the ground and gain clearance to boot. Does this not make any sense to you or what? I feel like I keep explaining and no one is getting it.

Ary

Get longer swaybar links.

I have JKS's for 6" of lift, how much longer should I make them?

Ary'01XJ said:

retain the use of the stock LCA brackets

my arms would sit perfectly parallel to the ground,

My goal ... is to improve my ride(i.e. lessen CA angles),

So far, I have not been able to find a major design flaw with my idea, if you see one, please point it out.

I've been talking with a guy that's got in under the back of his TJ and he loves it

Click to expand...

Use of the stock LCA brackets will severely limit the length of your swing arm. This will result in more axle rotation and fore/aft movement during articulation. The net result will be excessive stress on your bushings, binding and axle steer.

Mounting the arms over the axle might result in a physical arm that is parallel to the ground, but the "effective arm" will be at a steep angle and the ride will suffer because of it. Using a short arm, mounted at the axle will give you steeper "effective arm" angles than either long arms or stock 4-link.

IM(humble as usual)O, you will not achieve your goal with this design.

The TJ example is a rear axle suspension where the arm swings rearward and upward on impact with a bump. Big difference.

Ary,just take the plunge!!!! I was so nervous about cutting off the BB's,but now I really see the benefits.I even considered using Ford style stem/bushings at the frame end instead of JJ's but they made the arm alot shorter!

Just curious, but wouldn't the length and angle of the "effective arm" be determined by drawing a line from the frame bracket to the center of the axle tube? If so, my effective arm will still be nearly parrallel. Anyway, I'm just looking back at the fact that I hacked off my rear quarter panels and regret it from time to time, and I don't want that to happen with something as important as the frame. Thanks

Ary