u-joint options

OK, there have been a few posts about the full circle clips, and I'm sure there has been some about tack welding. I'd like to know the pro-and cons of each. From what I see.

weld clips

pros - -dont need to grind -easier tail fix
yokes out



cons - -could ruin u-joint if -removing material to fit clips
weld sucks
-gotta grind out to replace
and will event. ruin shaft
(assuming yokes stay)

I have also heard of some people using high strength loc-tite...which will make a trail fix virtually impossible. There is also a place that I saw that makes sleeves that fit in the cap and replace the needle bearings. I forget who made them, if anyone has any info on them, please pass it along. Any ideas...how much material is actually needed to be grinded out to fit the full circle clips, I know it's enough to fit the clip, but is it a lot? Thanks _nicko_

well, my little table dind't work out.

TACK WELD
pros

-dont need to grind

cons

- could ruin u-joint if the weld sucks

- gotta grind out to replace
and will event. ruin shaft
(assuming yokes stay)

CIRCLE CLIPS
pros

-easier tail fix

cons

-removing material to fit clips

Why?

Why?

Click to expand...

because the stock c-clips that hold the caps on the u-joints suck and tend to walk out causing premature u-joint failure

Brad

Tack weld, cause its easier.

I have been interested in those rings that replace the needle bearings also.

another diffrence besides the size of the trunions of the 260 vs 297 is the diffrence in needle bearing size, the 297 joint ones are much bigger. I think by putting those rings in the 297 joints you should be moving the failure point to the shafts. I haven't really resurched the rings but I would probably only want to use them with a selectable hub.

OK, when you break a joint on the trail under any sort of load conditions, the shafts are goners anyway, so don't even think trail repair. The only caveat to this would be if you were using Warn shafts with regular 760 joints. The Warn's will survive a joint breaking, OEM junk WILL NOT.

I like welding for this reason, and the additional, albeit speculative, theoretical benefit of adding some resistance to stretching to the shafts. Once an OEM shaft stretches, and the cap begins to turn, failure is damn near imminent.

Either way you decide to go, you'll be much better off than with the junk OEM retaining clip.

On a side note, Superior is now making D-30 stub shafts that are hardened alloy and accept full circle snap rings. Warn has only, thus far, produced the inners.

CRASH

is there a diffrence between the warn vs superior axles? or does everyone just get warns for pricing and applications?

BTW I think its a good idea to throw a little paint on the ears and cap. It makes it alot more obvious if a cap has spun or moved.

I had a cap rotate 10 degrees and break the spot weld. and was able to catch it before any serious damage was caused. I then welded it a bit deeper.

I think it's more a matter of availability. Superior just finished their R&D recently, so they have only been selling for a couple of months. Warn inners have been out for years, but they still don't make a stub.

Warns are through hardened 4340 alloy, not induction hardened 1341 alloy, like a stock shaft. I don't know what Superiors are made of, and if they are through hardened, including the all-important ear area.

CRASH

To tell you the truth, I have yet to break a u-joint...wow hardcore wheeler here. I guess it's my at's that just don't like to get traction, but I did know almost all the time the ears have a tendency to break/bend, but jsut figured sometimes they don't. I want to find those insert sleeves big time now that I'm thinking. If the u-joint breaks, it breaks one of the yokes, or the inner and outer yokes. Why not have the u-joint hold together and JUST break one shaft instead of a u-joint and maybe even 2 shafts? Makes sense to me. So I'm gonna go take a look for those things now. _nicko_

If any one of the three components invloved (inner, outer, joint) break, they are all going to break. The impact of the two yokes coming together under 7,000 ft lbs of energy is going to grenade all the OEM components.

It is a very rare circumstance that a joint breaks under a light load and the two shafts don't hose each other.

Trust me on this, I've been involved in WAY too many trail side axle swaps and ball joint failures. The people involved always pull out a spare U-joint and say, "Luckily, I brought this spare joint!" Then I hold up the ends of two fragged shafts and their smile fades......

CRASH

Nick those sleeves are made by a guy from S&NFAB. I have the link saved on my old computer so i can't get it till tomorrow at earliest. Its somehwere on their website but i couldn't find it again (didn't look to hard either) www.snort4x4.com . Try searching the pirate board if you can't find it. peace

CRASH said:

"Luckily, I brought this spare joint!" Then I hold up the ends of two fragged shafts and their smile fades......

CRASH

Click to expand...

HAHA, that's a great line.

Yeah I have a full set of shafts, u-joints and hubs assemblies. I don't understand how everyhting will be grenaded if the u-joint and yokes are what holds up and the shaft part break. The reason for CTM's right? If it's the inner shaft that breaks you'll still have a good chance of having an outer and u-joint from being bolted to the hub, and if the outer breaks the outter breaking seems like it'll be a less of a for the inner to stay together, but maybe better than nothing.....does that make any sense?

Thanks for the site greg, but I can't find them.....pass the link on when you get it. _nicko_

The nice thing about the sleeves is that you get to weld all the way around the caps, and weld them in good, because you have no fear of hurting the needle bearings. so if one shaft, or U-joint breaks chances are slim you will be able to replace one of the shafts.

well that's IF you weld all the way around. Is a full weld truly needed...I would think 2-3 deep tacks would suffice to hold them in there good, and you could still reuse the one shaft you you ground down a bit as a spare.

found the link

http://www.sn-fab.com/images/retail/ujoint.html

what a rip off though...50 per joint. Seems liek they dont' sell jsut the sleeve. I think I'll fire up my mini lathe for first time and make them myself.

If you can make'em your self go for it but a lot of locals pummel those joints and have very few failures...

I personally run warns and CTM's so it is a non issue for me - but think about the extra 20 some bucks as shaft longevity insurance...

I ran my OEM's welded up (two solid tacks) and all it succeeded in do was destroying the whole shaft all at once; the cross was OK the caps were fragged - some still welded in but still fragged - long side non-disco for a 91' that came factory with 297's was about $135.00 that was looking a whole bunch to find that price - most wanted over $200...

For that much I could by a warn inner since I was switching to 44 outers and didn't need the outer and joint....

press some homebrew sleaves in an let us kno whow it goes...

Matt

gearwhine said:

I have also heard of some people using high strength loc-tite...which will make a trail fix virtually impossible. There is also a place that I saw that makes sleeves that fit in the cap and replace the needle bearings. I forget who made them, if anyone has any info on them, please pass it along. Any ideas...how much material is actually needed to be grinded out to fit the full circle clips, I know it's enough to fit the clip, but is it a lot? Thanks _nicko_

Click to expand...

Most people who modify the Spicer yokes to fit full circle clips simply cut down the inside of the yoke to extend the flat clip bearing surface another 1/8-inch. You need to remove enough to allow fitting the snap ring during installation (a little more than the installed snap ring diameter).

Some use a die grinder, some use a milling machine, some use a hacksaw or Porta-Band, some use a belt sander or angle grinder. Some enlarge only the radius around the existing flat surface where the clip will seat, and others simply extend the flat bearing surface to a straight line parallel to the factory machined line (this is very quick & easy to do by hand with a band saw).

Tha snap rings I use for 260X u-joints are 1" external snap rings. I use 1 1/8" for the 297X u-joints (anything smaller is difficult to install, and some people use a metric snap ring). I have not installed 760 joints (they may be slightly different).

Use of Loctite does not make it harder to remove a u-joint cap. The force to remove a cap will shear the sealer. The advantage to the sealer is to prevent the cap from spinning in the yoke, something that will promote misalignment and distortion of the yoke hole bore (what appears to occur before most failures).

FWIW, I snap ring and Loctite the u-joint caps, even in my spare 260X axles. I used to tack weld the caps in my younger days (EB's and CJ's with 260X joints) and it helped, but I also learned to believe the weld heat would temper the yoke ears and promote future failures (make it easier to oval the cap bores in the yoke, and start the misalignment road to distruction). The snap ring & Loctite seems to work just as well without the heat. The Locktite keeps the cap from spinning and the snap ring keeps the cap from walking out of the yoke.

But wouldn't taking that 1/8" off of each ear make the yoke much weaker....that's the only thing that keeps me from doing it...if you can prove to me that the little bit of damge the weld does is more damaging than grinding down for full-circle clips...then I will be happy. _nicko_

gearwhine said:

But wouldn't taking that 1/8" off of each ear make the yoke much weaker....that's the only thing that keeps me from doing it...if you can prove to me that the little bit of damge the weld does is more damaging than grinding down for full-circle clips...then I will be happy. _nicko_

Click to expand...

I understand the trade off concern.

The metal removed (shaved is a good term for the procedure) is ~1/8-inch and a little wider than the thickness of a hacksaw blade on the inside surface of the yoke ear base.

Look at the meat (metal thickness & expected strength) at the yoke ear base, where the clip seat machining is done, compared to the centerline of the cap bore? The yoke ear base has the full width of the forging where the clip relief grinding is required, easily four to five times the shear strength area of both sides of the cap centerline cross section area of the yoke combined.

The weakest area (IMO) is still the cap centerline sections, even after thinning the yoke at the clip area. This is where the yoke separated in all the damaged yoke ears I have (all the 297X yokes, and the 260X yokes where the u-joint did not strip all four stubs off the cross). The base where the shaving is required to fit the clip is intact on all the failed yokes I have seen (including mine, where I broke the knuckle by camming the yokes together, extreme abuse).

Repeat welding at the cap, close to this minimal metal cross section, may remove the temper from the forging at the weakest point (IMO, and from what I experienced on CJ's and EB's). Tack welding the caps works, but it may contribute to that "one time to failure" aspect Crash mentioned (plan on new axles if the welded yoke breaks a u-joint). With the torque of 33's or larger tires unrepairable axle damage is almost a given (so the difference between welded caps and snap ring cap retention is an equal "expect axle replacement after failure" result).