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Double Down
July 31st, 2004, 15:41
I was reading a post about a guy who's problem was almost dead on to mine:

http://www.naxja.org/forum/showthread.php?t=29662&page=1&pp=15&highlight=tps

I have a 1997 4.0 4dr automatic with 77,000 miles and it was doing the same thing: "Everytime I would start up the vehicle it would run for a few seconds and then it would start to sputter, make a couple pops/clunks under the hood like it wasn't mixing fuel right or getting enough gas. I could floor it and it would still do it, till it cleared up after about 5 seconds and would be good to go. It would only do this at idle and low take-off speeds."

I replaced both O2 sensors, added new exhaust, plugs, rotor and cap, wires, battery, etc. I even bored out the TB and added a bored out spacer thinking I was having bad combustion issues and wasn't getting enough air, but it still did it and still showed an engine light that kept pulling heater circuit codes for front and back.

So yesterday I was at a light turning right to head to my place and all of a sudden it wouldn't go. The engine was running and I had it in automatic but it wouldn't move. The engine would rev but no luck at all. So I put it into the "1/2" gear setting and it worked fine. I went to bed, got up this morning and it ran fine for about 5 minutes and then did the same thing. So I went and had the transmission level checked. The fluid was brown but full. Then I took the advice of someone who told me to check my fuses, which I did and the only one I found popped, was the same fuse you told the guy was told about in the post above about regarding the o2 heater circuit which I was having the same issue with.

So while I was replacing that fuse I also was tightening down a sensor on the left side of my throttle body (if you are looking at the engine from the front). When you unscrew it this sensor, it looks like a small rod. Well, the rod was dirty so I cleaned it off with some TB cleaner, then plugged and screwed it back in. I then hooked the battery back up and went to start the jeep. Well...I put it in gear and pressed on the gas and the sucker almost bogged down on me...and then it did and died. Turned it back on, tried reverse and it worked great, but put it back in auto...even the "1/2" gear and it bogged and shutdown. I restarted it in park, put it in neutral and reved the engine...no problems....except I noticed that none of my gauges were working, rmps, fuel, battery, etc...none of them. I thought maybe I had not put a fuse back in correctly after going through all of them, so I took them out and put them back in again....same thing.

Could it be the sensor I cleaned (if so, what sensor was it?) Could it be my TPS possibly. I don't think the transmission has ever been flushed, could it be that? Could be the fact that the heater circuit for the O2 sensors are now working?

What do you all think or what should I try?

Thanks,

Chris

XJade
July 31st, 2004, 16:04
I think the sensor you cleaned was the idle speed motor (also called IAC, idle air control, etc.). That and the thing to the right of it (the TPS) are very suscpetible to failure when cleaning.

I would check to see if your TPS is adjusted right. Do a search on how to do this.

Double Down
August 1st, 2004, 13:09
Okay, I got a picture of it...what is this sensor with the red arrow pointing towards it? This is the one I pulled out and cleaned and looked like a prong. Also, what is the sensor to the right of it, is that the TPS?

http://f1.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/beebech/detail?.dir=/43d9&.dnm=5f9f.jpg

If this is the IAC that I cleaned and ruined, what is the best way to replace it or fix it? Would that cause the entire instrument panel to not function (i.e. gas gauge, rpm, speed, volts, etc)?

Thanks,

Chris

XJade
August 1st, 2004, 15:08
Looks like your throttle body is situated differently than my 87XJ. But that definitely looks like your IAC motor.

Replacing it is pretty straightforward. Unplug the connector, unscrew the old IAC and put in the new one. No adjustment that I know of.

The pintle (small rod thing) in the IAC is the thing to be careful about. Cleaning shouldn't really harm the IAC. Pulling on or damaging that pintle will. I had a bad IAC and it was the pintle that was broken.

As far as the gauges, the IAC shouldn't have anything to do with them going out. Isn't there a fuse for the instrument panel? Have you checked that?

old_man
August 1st, 2004, 15:23
The IAC is not normally sensitive to cleaning, the TPS however is. I hate to see anybody just go and buy an IAC since they are spendy and are seldom defective in my experience. Do you have a buddy you can swap IAC's with for a few minutes? Sure beats blowing the $$$.

Double Down
August 1st, 2004, 15:26
Okay, I will see if I can swap out my IAC with someone and I know there are posts for checking the TPS, but what is the best way?

Regarding the gauges, do you all have any idea which fuse controls the instrument panel, because all the fuses are working and not blown, could be one is just not in correctly.

Chris

XJade
August 1st, 2004, 15:44
Definitely don't shell out for a new IAC unless you know it's bad. They are pricey even at Autozone. Old_Man's advice would be the way to go. See if you can't swap it out with a known good one.

Double Down
August 1st, 2004, 16:08
What do you mean pull the pintle or broken pintle? How do you know if it's broken on the IAC? Because when I was cleaning it, I turned the sleeve that went around the pintle, etc. Does that do anything?

Chris

badge714
August 1st, 2004, 18:44
Okay, I got a picture of it...what is this sensor with the red arrow pointing towards it? This is the one I pulled out and cleaned and looked like a prong. Also, what is the sensor to the right of it, is that the TPS?

http://f1.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/beebech/detail?.dir=/43d9&.dnm=5f9f.jpg

If this is the IAC that I cleaned and ruined, what is the best way to replace it or fix it? Would that cause the entire instrument panel to not function (i.e. gas gauge, rpm, speed, volts, etc)?

Thanks,

Chris

THE SENSOR THAT THE RED ARROW IS POINTING TO IS THE AIR IDLE CONTROL VALVE. THE OTHER ONE IS THROTTLE POSITION SENSOR
in the power control box there are three rows of mini fuses between the relays and maxi fuses-----9-13-17
10-14-18
11-15-19 <<
12-16-20
check # 19-- 15amp. blue badge 714 jeepman600@aol.com


97 cherokee sport 4.0 k&N MSD Coil- MSD 5200 ignition pac.
1959 cj5 restored frame up jeep v/6 240 hp.

johnnyc
August 1st, 2004, 19:18
What do you mean pull the pintle or broken pintle? How do you know if it's broken on the IAC? Because when I was cleaning it, I turned the sleeve that went around the pintle, etc. Does that do anything?

Chris
When I cleaned my IAC last week and put it back on, it idled very high. Took the IAC off again, and the thing fell apart in my hands.

There's a small screw at the end of the pintle. This came completely out, along with the sleeve you mentioned, and the spring.

I thought I was screwed. But I carefully put it back together and made sure that the pintle moved smoothly. Now it runs perfectly.

I guess what I'm saying is - check that screw at the end of the pintle.

Double Down
August 2nd, 2004, 06:58
Okay, I will check the spindle and see if I can fix it or not and I will check the fuses again.

XJade
August 2nd, 2004, 12:37
As to your question. The sleeve (which I believe was plastic?) on my IAC was cracked and so the spring and pintle rod were loose and fell apart when I unbolted the IAC.

Are you still dealing with the bogging down problem or is it only an instrument panel issue now?

Double Down
August 2nd, 2004, 13:30
Haven't fixed/checked out the IAC yet, but I am going to do that after work and check all the fuses at the same time. The IAC is the only I can think of that I changed or messed with. The only other thing I did so far was to replace a 15 amp fuse that supposedly was for the O2 heater circuit that I kept getting a check engine light for. I can't imagine that changing the fuse to actually make it work would do that much....would it?

Just for giggles, when I did replace that fuse which now let's the O2 sensor heater circuit work, what exactly did i do?

Thanks,

Chris

Double Down
August 2nd, 2004, 16:46
Okay,

So I just went through all the fuses in the engine and regular fuse box inside the cab. Nothing was blown. I unscrewed the IAC thing and here is a picture of it:

http://f1.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/beebech/detail?.dir=/43d9&.dnm=2951.jpg

The crazy thing is that if you push on the top it pushes down inside the black piece. So I messed with it as much as I could, made sure it was working and then put it back.

Then I pulled every single fuse and put them back in...here is my engine fusebox:

http://f1.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/beebech/detail?.dir=/43d9&.dnm=d59a.jpg

Now here is where it gets interesting again.

I started my XJ and noticed now that all the gauges except for the oil pressure gauge, speedometer, and rpm were working. So then I put it in reverse and it worked fine....THEN I put it in auto and tried to go forward and I swear it was like all the brakes were on, because it labored really hard and then died. So I started it again, put it in reverse and everything was fine, so I decided to put it in the "1/2" gear setting and it did the same thing as the auto settings.

Then I turned off the Jeep and turned it back on again...NONE of the gauges were working. I then waited for a sec and then turned the Jeep back on and the same 3 gauges were working. :huh:

What the heck is going on here?

I can possibly understand that the gauges are faulty because of a fuse not being inserted correctly, etc but what gives with the transmission?

I decided to crawl underneath to see if I could see anything and the only thing I saw was this thing on top of the transfer case/transmission (not exactly sure what it is):

http://f1.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/beebech/detail?.dir=/43d9&.dnm=7bb4.jpg

But I was thinking that this thing has to have a fuse somewhere and if so, could that be part of the problem...actually, what the heck does it do? :dunce:

I can't go anywhere or do anything till this thing is fixed, so whatever you guys can do to help would be great.

Thanks,

Chris

XJade
August 2nd, 2004, 17:00
Damn. That really is perplexing. I wish I had enough experience and knowledge to direct you towards solving it. I've re-read your posts several times and a common denominator hasn't become clear to me yet. Unless something electrical went screwy when you were cleaning the IAC.

Anyone else wanna take a stab at this?

coach9119
August 2nd, 2004, 18:32
I decided to crawl underneath to see if I could see anything and the only thing I saw was this thing on top of the transfer case/transmission (not exactly sure what it is):

http://f1.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/beebech/detail?.dir=/43d9&.dnm=7bb4.jpg


That's the speedo gear - probably has nothing to do with your problem.

wascobi
August 2nd, 2004, 18:40
check all your grounds in the engine compartment

jneary
August 2nd, 2004, 18:45
can you tell if you have any stored codes now? i'm thinking it has something to do with the engine pulling the wiring while in drive. in reverse the engine is torquing in the opposite direction. i wuold chech the crank sensor wiring. try pulling the crank sensor wire while the jeep is running and see if it duplicates the problem.

Double Down
August 2nd, 2004, 22:06
How can you tell if those big black fuses are blown in the engine compartment? Those are fuses right? What do they have to do with anything?

http://f1.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/be...9&.dnm=d59a.jpg

I am going to check for codes, but everything is fine except for when it dies when I try to go forward and then it throws a check engine light, but that goes away the next time you start it.

Also, my airbag light is on now, probably from me taking out and looking at the fuses. Nothing is busted, but could it be possible that the fuses have been in there so long that they might need some cleaning? Or maybe the fuse box connector itself? How would you go about making sure that the fusebox connections for the fuses are clean contacts?

Thanks,

Chris

Double Down
August 2nd, 2004, 22:10
Where is the crank sensor wire...can I find it's location in my Haynes manual?

Chris

XJade
August 3rd, 2004, 06:18
Yes you should be able to locate it in a Haynes. Often called a Crank Position Sensor. My year XJ has it located on the top of the bell housing on the driver's side. Kinda have to hunt for it as it's not so obvious like a starter or alternator.

Those black square things in the fuse box should be relays I assume

Double Down
August 3rd, 2004, 06:44
Okay, I will take a look for the cable and see if that has anything to do with it.

Chris

Double Down
August 3rd, 2004, 17:15
Okay so here's the update:

I turned on the engine and yanked at the crankshaft sensor wire pretty decent and nothing happened, engine ran fine.

I rechecked all the fuses again and everyone is okay.

I tugged on every lose wire in the engine compartment and everything was fine.

I got in the Jeep, put her in reverse and she was great...no issues like normal. But then I put it back in auto, pressed on the gas and it groaned and moved along trying to die on me so I quickly put it back in neutral.

Tried again, same thing.

All my gauges are working EXCEPT FOR the oil pressure gauge, rpm, and speedometer (well, really can't test that ;)

Someone had told me before to check my transmission computer fuse and I have no idea where this is. Also, I was told to check my transmission computer fusible link, which I have NO idea where that is.

I can't check codes, because I can't take it anywhere.

I don't know if this helps, but since I have bought this Jeep about 6 months ago, everytime I would shift from park or neutral in auto you could hear something clunk, like it was basically throwing everything into gear. Don't know if this was bad or not, just trying to throw everything out here I can to help.

The engine runs great when just sitting there idling, I can rev it no problem and doesn't even stutter.

:dunno: I am so lost and this sucks. Can't go anywhere to get groceries, run errands...just messed up my left knee last night playing soccer, so now I can't ride my bike to places....ARGGGGGGGGGggg LOL

Call all your friends, ask all your buddies on this site, I gotta figure this out.

Hope you all can help,

Thanks,

Chris

Double Down
August 3rd, 2004, 18:12
Update....

Dale (or badge714 on this site) has been helping me a ton and told me to check the codes using the key method as seen here:

http://go.jeep-xj.info/HowtoECUcodes.htm (thank you goJeep ;) )

So the two codes I got were:

12 - Battery disconnected. Battery or power to the ECM disconnected in the last 50 key cycles (probably because I was working on it with the battery disconnected)

66 - TCM to PCM failure. No message from the Transmission Control Module (TCM) to the Powertrain Control Module (PCM)

Now that last one is interesting to me...don't want it means, but it looks important lol

maybe that will help.

Thanks,

Chris

Double Down
August 3rd, 2004, 20:11
Okay, another update, here's what my faulty code 66 means:

TCM CONTROL MODULE:

RIGHT ( PASSENGER ) SIDE OF ENGINE COMPARTMENT NEAR FIREWALL; MOUNTED TO THE INNER FENDER---THE TRANSMISSION CONTROL MODULE CONTROLS ALL THE ELECTRONIC OPERATIONS OF THE TRANSMISSION. THE TCM RECEIVES INFORMATION REGARDING VEHICLE OPERATION FROM BOTH DIRECT AND INDIRECT INPUTS AND SELECTS THE OPERATIONAL MODE OF THE TRANSMISSION. BASED ON INFORMATION RECEIVED FRON VARIOUS INPUTS, THE TCM DETERMINES THE APPROPRIATE SHIFT SCHEDULE AND SHIFT POINTS, DEPENDING ON THE PRESENT OPERATING CONDITIONS AND DRIVER DEMAND. THIS IS POSSIBLE THROUGH THE CONTROL OF VARIOUS DIRECT AND INDIRECT OUTPUTS

So what do I do about this? Could this be why everything is happening?

Thanks,

Chris

XJade
August 3rd, 2004, 21:14
I'm gonna ask a basic question here. You have checked the tranny fluid level, right? From my own personal experience, it may move in reverse fine but it will struggle to move in [D]rive. Don't ask me how that could be. Once I got the fluid level where it should everything was great.

From what I hear the AW4 is one tough cookie. So the first thing you should always do when encountering problems is check the fluid level.

Double Down
August 3rd, 2004, 21:26
Well, I went to Valvoline and had them check it and they said it was fine...now I know that may not mean much, so what is exactly the best way to check it? Meaning, should I have it running, should I have it in neutral? or off.

Thanks,

Chris

Yucca-Man
August 3rd, 2004, 21:41
Warm it up, cycle through all gears if possible, and check fluid level in Neutral

Double Down
August 4th, 2004, 09:37
Still, does anyone know what that code means or what I need to do?

Chris

Double Down
August 4th, 2004, 19:57
Well, here's what I've got. First I replaced the IAC and TPS tonight because I screwed up the IAC and the TPS I didn't trust. But those didn't solve the problem, Jeep still didn't go forward hardly at all without groaning.

So in a brainstorm of thinking "hmmm, maybe it's the simplest thing" I let it warm up, then cycled through the gears and put it in neutral and checked the tranny fluid. I checked it twice and unless I am reading it wrong (was doing it at night in a parking light) that sucker was bone dry. Now when I took it to valvoline they said it was fine...granted this was in park and engine off...does it make that big a difference?

Just so I know when I fill it up, how much is too much? I have heard the AW4 that too much fluid and it hates it. So do I fill it up while it's running in neutral or park? Also, from what I have read Dexron III/Mercon is what needs to go in the tranny. Is the only place I can get this from a dealer or do other tranny shops or quick shops have this stuff?

Thanks,

Chris

jneary
August 4th, 2004, 20:04
the fluid must be checked in neutral when warmed up. i think it even says that on the dipstick. if there i no fluid on the stick i would think at leat 2.5 to 3 quarts to start. the trans fluid mudt be dexron3 and nothing else. if the shop cant even check trans fluid, i would wonder what they can do.

Double Down
August 4th, 2004, 20:16
yeah, no kidding. The Jeep has 77,000 miles on it and I am guessing from the previous owner that the tranny fluid hasn't been flushed and filled since it's been bought...but could be wrong. So here's the question then. When I do get it flushed and filled, should I have it running in neutral or just in neutral?

Chris

PS - Also, does anyone know where the stupid TCM is so I can unplug it?

Yucca-Man
August 4th, 2004, 20:55
I neglected that part - running and in Neutral to check it. Doesn't matter how it is when you fill it, but just remember that if you pour fluid in there you'll have residual drips that may mess up your readings. If it's bone dry though you definitely need at least 2 quarts; don't get caried away and put too much in but I'd recommend a few services in the near future to get a lot of the old, burned junk diluted and removed.

Double Down
August 5th, 2004, 15:49
What the HELLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL !

I just tried working the Jeep again, pulling fuses and what not to check connections and all that Jazz, and now I go to start it back up and I another code LOL

42 - Automatic shutdown relay. Check relay and circuit. Needs specialist or dealer diagnostics.

What the heck does this mean now? I didn't pull out any relays, just fuses and they were all replaced.

This is driving me crazy.

Thanks,

Chris

Double Down
August 5th, 2004, 18:18
party1: WooooooooooooooooooooHooooooooooooooooo!

Okay, so I went outside now that I knew exactly where the TCM was and unplugged that bad boy. Let my battery disconnect for about 5 minutes and turn the key for 30 secs to get rid of any memory.

Turned that bad boy back on and BAM! all the gauges worked, the rpm's worked...everything. Then the test came, I put it in the "1/2" gear and everything was perfect. Drove it around for awhile in manual mode and no issues.

So what is crazy is that somehow the TCM was actually affecting all the gauges on the instrument panel to some degree? How can that be?

So tomorrow I will take the XJ in to get a transmission flush and fill and then install the new TCM module.

Of course, since I was feeling pretty sweet :laugh3: I decided to figure out why my air conditioning wasn't working...figured that out and now I have ice cold air.

I will let you all know how the TCM module replacement goes, but as of right now I still want to thank everyone for their help...can not tell how much I appreciate it.

Thanks,

Chris

jneary
August 5th, 2004, 19:02
all of the controllers communicate on what is called the "bus" line. if one sensor or controller short out it can shut down other components on the bus circuit. the instrument cluster is tied into that. usually when we see something along those lines it turns out to be the cps. but anything can cause this like tcm, air bag module, etc...

tripletsjeepin
August 5th, 2004, 20:27
Try plugging the TCM back in to see if the module is bad or if was just confused.. ie locked up.

Double Down
August 7th, 2004, 14:44
Well goooooooooooooo figure. I got the new TCM module, plugged it in and exact same thing...couldn't believe it. So I decided I drop by my local Valvoline, one of the few ones who really know there stuff and did a complete trans flush and fill and of course filled it with Mercon III/Decron. Still had the TCM module unplug but it was amazing in manual mode how much smoother it shifted and worked (go figure). So anyway, I was sitting there and thought, maybe I should plug my TCM back in just for giggles.

So I did :doh: and guess what...everything worked perfectly, absolutely frickin perfectly with my stock TCM module. So after all this, the sucker just needed a really, really good trans cleaning and fill.

Well, good side is I learned a ton and I want to thank you guys for your help. I know a couple of you told me to get the thing flushed and filled first, but I didn't even know how I would get there till I found the TCM module.

Well, at least I have an extra TPS, IAC, and TCM module if I ever need them :laugh2:

Chris (Double Down)

XJade
August 7th, 2004, 16:37
Bittersweet experience, huh? Welcome to the world of auto mechanics! I'm a newbie just like you. Let's just say I decided years ago to buy a huge spiral notebook and some sheet protectors and I continue to add handy info into that binder almost every day.

Glad to hear things are okey-dokey. As the old saying goes...we were starting to worry about ya, kid.

Double Down
August 7th, 2004, 20:05
Yeha...gotta love it. Thanks for the official invite.

Stupidity is one thing, but ignorance is another...I've learn in my life so far that it's easier to look back and take up the wisdom or sheet protected binders of others than spend time making the same mistakes and wasting paper ;)

When I was in my early teens, I wanted to race motorbikes...so my dad helped by me one. A beat up junker, torn to hell and I was upset because I wanted the newer version. I said to him "who's going to fix it?" He said, "You are". I said "how?" At that point he pointed his finger to a single screw on the bike and said unscrew that. So I did, then he pointed to another one and said "unscrew that one" and so I did. He told me to unscrew everything little thing on the bike, which I did and all I had one hundreds of pieces laying around me. Frustrated and upset, I said "now what...I don't have a bike to ride" and he smile and said "now put it back together". Damn I was mad :passgas: but as I put that thing back together over the next couple days I saw every single part that went together and learned all of their names. I realized that what looked like a bunch of complicated parts really was easy to understand once you broke them down into single pieces. Man, I love him for that.

As much as I love taking things apart and putting them back together :D , I'm glad you guys got to help save my parking lot from having 1,000 parts strewn all over the place.

Probably won't get back into the rock climbing thing till I get the understanding of how to fix stuff when it breaks, since it's my only car...but when I move out west in a couple years, I'm sure we'll run into each other, just always watch out for the license plate...you'll see me "Dubl Dwn" (Double Down).

Just remember "Cry in the Dojo, Laugh on the Battlefield"

I gotta go finishing watching "Bubba Ho-Tep", rent it when you get the chance, funny as hell.

Chris