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View Full Version : Alloy axles... I'm missing what?


Bones
April 25th, 2004, 07:33
Since going to 35's I think it's time for alloys F&R. I had already planned the rear, but now I am going to do inner fronts as well.

I have been trying to keep up with the alloy axle stuff (what’s stronger, what heat treatment is best, who's got the better deal, who's got the longest johnson, etc.) but I guess I've missed something somewhere.


I keep hearing how expensive the axles are. Now I know expense is a relative thing, but Warns seem to come in at less than $200 each for the front and I've seen the Dutchman, Superior et al companies rears at like $300 a pair. Axles that are not any more than the tires we run don't sound that expensive to me if they save carnage on the trail, so WTF am I missing? :huh:

:dunce: :dunce: :dunce: EDUMACATE ME :dunce: :dunce: :dunce:


Are there different Warn axles and I am just not looking at the proper ones?
Are Superiors that much more than the Warns?
Why would I want a two year warranty from one company if another company offers lifetime?
How hard is it to collect on the warranty with a failed shaft?
Are the Yukon’s that much cheaper than the Warns?

What is up with the Vendor selling the Yukons for $500? Yukon Axle 4340 CrMo front shafts. complete with full circle clipped 5-760x u-joints.
shipped at $500/set...Is this inner and outer, or just the bonus of installed 760's?


Does anyone know of a good tech site to review this axle stuff?

Thanks for the help!

Bones :skull1:

Redcbr007
April 25th, 2004, 07:50
I personally dont have that much experiance w/ axle strength....now, for the longest johnson....... :P


-Red

Bryan C.
April 25th, 2004, 11:08
I bought a set of the Yukon 4340 alloy front axle shafts from that same vendor. They are inners and outers plus the 760 joints. They aren't as strong, according to some over at Pirate, as Superior of Warn even though they are made from the same material. I cannot comment on the Warn/Superior debate, I haven't run either of them. But I do know the Yukons were cheaper than the Superior. And unless you run the Warn hub kit, you can only get the Warn inner shafts, they don't make the stock configuration outers. I wound up getting the Yukon axleshafts and a set of the Longfield u-joints. It was much cheaper than a Superior/CTM setup, although not quite as bulletproof. The price I found for Superior front axleshafts were close to $370 for each side with 760s installed, then another $185 for each CTM. The Yukon shafts were $500 and the Longfields were $140 a pair. I figured since I haven't broke a set of stock shafts yet, the Yukons were worth the money for me. I plan on getting a set of Dutchman rear shafts for my D44. I haven't been able to locate a set of Superiors for it yet, although I haven't really looked too hard.

Bryan

Edit: The Yukon shafts have a 5 year warranty, better than Superior, but not as good as Warn.

Goatman
April 25th, 2004, 12:37
Bryan makes some good points. The Yukons good be a good option for many people. One thing I would definitely recommend is getting alloy stub shafts as well as alloy inners. From what we've seen over and over again, the ears on the Spicer yokes just don't hold up to 35's and hard use. A good case in point is the six broken Spicer front axles in one day last Nov on Outer Limits in JV. All were snap ringed or had welded caps, and mostly the ears let go. Also, they were all with 33" tires. None of the guys with bigger tires and alloy shafts broke an axle.

You can't beat the Warn inners, and you probably can't beat the Superiors (except for the warrenty), but the only way to get Warn stubs is to get a hub kit. Whichever way you go on the inners, definitely get either the Yukon or Superior stubs......unless you're already going to spring for a hub kit. Since you're spending a little dough with a goal to avoid breaking and having to deal with a trail repair (and $$), I also recomend going with either the CTM's or Longfields.........I've seen you drive. :D

Warn only makes one type of shaft, in different applications. They won't give you any trouble if the shaft itself breaks, but they won't warrenty a shaft that has been damaged by a broken u-joint. If the u-joint fails and rips an ear off the shaft, and you stop immediately and don't drive on it so the yokes aren't all beat up from hitting each other, they will likely warrenty it. If you drive a little with a broken u-joint and put nicks and gouges in the yokes, they won't warrenty it. I've had stuff warrentied through Warn, both a winch and the spindles from a hub kit (and stub axle), and they were very easy to work with.

Goatman
April 26th, 2004, 18:53
Hey Bones.....you there? :)

rpili2001
April 26th, 2004, 19:13
Bones,

I had Moser axles in back but broke one at the flange. I how have Currie Axles. After breaking the Moser I would'nt recommend them to anyone. I went to Currie cause Dynatrack referred me to them. Currie was very, very easy to work with.

I didnt do much research, I should have stopped by Superior too but just went home after visiting with Currie.

Good luck.

Ray

What Rd
April 26th, 2004, 19:36
Hey Bones -

Grab a cooler of cold ones and settle in for some edumacation. This link is to Billavista's site giving you all you're likely to ever need to know about axle shafts, starting with "Steel is a metal", and going on from there (and on, and on, and . . . )

http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billavista/PR-BV60/index1a.html

MMIXJ
April 26th, 2004, 23:43
I keep hearing how expensive the axles are. Now I know expense is a relative thing, but Warns seem to come in at less than $200 each for the front and I've seen the Dutchman, Superior et al companies rears at like $300 a pair.
Are there different Warn axles and I am just not looking at the proper ones?
What is up with the Vendor selling the Yukons for $500? Is this inner and outer, or just the bonus of installed 760's?



it appears you're comparing apples to oranges, in that the prices you mention for warns don't include the inners AND outers (AND ujoints, like the yukon vendor you mentioned).

i called drivetrain direct today and the complete setup for the superiors was $399 per side, so $800 smackeroos total. they don't carry the warns anymore since warn doesn't do a chromo outer (and fwiw, re: a related thread-- he says superior has a much better hardening process).
;)

now my question: has anybody tried cryogenically treating axle shafts?

Bones
April 27th, 2004, 19:14
Hey Bones.....you there? :)
Ya, I'm here.

Went to the big city Sunday with the family, and got in one of those marathon poker games last PM. Only had two good winning hands all @#$%@ night. One full house and one jack high straight flush. Why is it when I have a good hand every one else has trash?

Small "pearl of wisdom"...If you look around the table and don't see a patsy...You are probably it ;)


Can the Dutchman or Superior rear axles be ordered already drilled for both 4.5 and 5.5 lug patterns?

Anyone running Currie axles or do they only build 9" stuff?

Bones :skull1:

bburge
April 27th, 2004, 19:23
Can the Dutchman or Superior rear axles be ordered already drilled for both 4.5 and 5.5 lug patterns?

Bones :skull1:

From http://www.dutchmanms.com

"Features include a non tapered body and a ductile flange which allows for shortening and/or an additional bolt pattern now or later if needed."

But I couldn't find it in the price list. Give 'em a call. They are noce and helpfull. I got axles from them for my 8.25...

bburge

Northern Pride
April 27th, 2004, 20:15
Currie uses Superior shafts

Do you have D30 in your Front? if so

Might want to get a super 30 kit same as TJ about $1300 locker and ring & pinion of choice, Chrom Alloy Superior shafts.

This is what I got. All said and done it was worth having them custom done!

rpili2001
April 27th, 2004, 21:09
Bones,

You can get the flange axles drilled both ways. My rear Mosers were when I was running the d30 in front. (5 X 4.5 and 5 X5.5)

As I said before I'm running Currie shafts, I think Dave Taylor is. Dave is running a 9 inch, I'm running a d60 with the ford big wheel bearing outers like a 9 inch so to the shaft it looks like a 9 inch ford.

Dont know if they make axles for d44 etc but you could give them a call. When I watched the guy entered the data into the computer, the pull down menus had all kins of axles bearing values, housing types, brkaes ,stud pattern etc.

There was mention that Currie runs Superior shafts - I doubt if this is true - I had a long email discussion with Travis Shephard at Currie (714-528-6957 x 115) w.r.t. the BillVista write up on alloy axles and this is what he wrote which is why I dont think currie uses superior shafts:

"RAY,

AS FAR AS SUPERIOR REAR AXLE BEING A BETTER AXLE, THAT'S NOT TRUE. IT IS THE
SAME EXACT MATERIAL AND HEAT TREATING AS CURRIE. THE ONLY DIFFERENCE IS THEY
ROLL THEIR SPLINE WHERE WE CUT OUR SPLINE. ROLLING IS A LITTLE BETTER METHOD
BUT THEY ONLY DO REPLACEMENT AXLES, NOT CUSTOM AXLES. YOU CANT RELY ON STOCK
SPECS WITH CUSTOM LENGTH AXLES. THEY DO HAVE CHROMMOLY FRONT AXLES, WHICH WE
CARRY WARN CHROMMOLY FRONT SHAFTS, AS WELL AS OUR PERFORMANCE 1541 ALLOY
FRONT AXLES. MOSER REAR AXLES ARE NOT THE SAME MATERIAL AND NO THEY ARENT AS
STRONG AS A CURRIE OR SUPERIOR AXLE. TO ADD ABOUT THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN
CHROMMOLY AND 1541; THE CHROMMOLY IS RIDGID WITH NO TORTIONAL GIVE, WHICH
ALSO MAKES IT BRITAL. THE 1541 HAS TORTIONAL GIVE WHICH TENDS TO BE EASIER
ON THE DRIVE COMPONENTS. BUT IF A UNIVERSAL JOINT BREAKS, ON A CHROMMOLY
SHAFT IT HAS ABOUT A 85% CHANCE OF NOT BEING HURT. WHERE THE 1541 SHAFT HAS
ABOUT A 50% CHANCE. BUT THE 1541 GENERALY HAS A LOT LONGER LIFE TO THE DRIVE
COMPONETS: U-JOINTS, HUBS, RING AND PINION ETC... SO UNLESS YOU ARE
UPGRADING THE FRONT TO A 1 TON AXLE AND HUB ASSEMBLY, THE STRENGTH ON
CHROMMOLY VS 1541 HAVE EQUAL GIVE AND TAKE. IF YOU HAVE ANY OTHER QUESTIONS
PLEASE LET ME KNOW.

THANK YOU, TRAVIS"

Goatman
April 27th, 2004, 21:52
I have Superior axles in my rear D60, and I had Dutchman axles in my rear D44. I got the Dutchman rears for the D44 when I went to the Warn hub kit on the D30, going to 5 on 5.5". Here's something to keep in mind when going to 5 on 5.5" on the XJ D44 if you have the stock drum brakes. The drum will handle being redrilled to the larger bolt pattern....but just barely. Get a good measurement of the inside flat surface of the drums so you know how large a radius you can have on the new axle flange. Dutchman made the flange slightly smaller than normal and beveled the edge of the flange so it would fit in the stock brake drum. Since the flange was slightly smaller, they used screw in studs rather than press in, which worked fine. I took the drums to a local machine shop to have them drilled to the larger bolt pattern. The only problem I had was after a few years a couple of the screw in studs loosened, but I tightened them all up with more Loctite and they are still working perfectly on a friends rig (who bought the D44). They can drill for both bolt patterns. Considering the money that can be spent for Jeep parts, roughly $300 for some nice alloy rear axles isn't bad. What might you do eventually in the front if you're concerned about 5 on 5.5" bolt pattern?

I believe Currie will build any axle shaft you want, as will Dutchman or Moser. I went with Dutchman because they would work off of my specs, while Moser wanted me to send them the stock axles so they could match them. Dutchman was very familiar with D44 axles.

Bones, like I said before, consider spending just a little more and getting chomo stubs. It seems the Spicer ears are more of a problem than the Spicer u-joints when they are snap ringed. Running snap ringed 760's with chomo shafts should be stronger than running a Longfield with a Spicer stub. Some places (like Pro Shaft here in Bakersfield) are selling a cryo'd 760x, which isn't a bad way to go, although guys are still crushing the needle bearings with a few years of hard use. This might not be a concern for you unless you run Montrose and places like that.

Bones
April 28th, 2004, 23:02
The dual drilled 4.5 and 5.5 lug pattern won't be an issue with my rear brakes. My rotors are already drilled for both patterns. It was one of the benefits of going with the Tera disc brake kit.

I'm not sure I want to go the full Superior shaft route as I don't want to drop a bunch in this D30, but I will go with stubs as well because of everyone's recommendations. I have to decide on the Yukons or to suck it up and run the Superiors. If I do the Superiors, I will probably end up running the D30 for a couple of years at least. Does anyone know for sure if the Yukons are really that much inferior to the superiors? It would be less painful to remove the Yukons and Longfields or cryo'ed 760's when the D44 was doable.

Sometimes I think I should just hub the D30, drop in a high steer Tera knuckle, brace it and just keep running it...Then I come to my senses and see that a custom D44 starts around 2.2K with all the stuff I want. In addition, I can have my caster and pinion angle both the way I want them.


Bones :skull1:

MMIXJ
April 29th, 2004, 16:12
i just got off the phone w/ randy's re: the yukon axles, and according to the guy i spoke w/ they don't offer the 4130 outers for the D30... so if you're getting "yukon" axles, you're getting the chromo inners, 760 joints, and dana outers.

$.02

P.S. take it for what it is worth, but he also claimed that their chromo inners aren't wany weaker than the warns or superiors...



The dual drilled 4.5 and 5.5 lug pattern won't be an issue with my rear brakes. My rotors are already drilled for both patterns. It was one of the benefits of going with the Tera disc brake kit.

I'm not sure I want to go the full Superior shaft route as I don't want to drop a bunch in this D30, but I will go with stubs as well because of everyone's recommendations. I have to decide on the Yukons or to suck it up and run the Superiors. If I do the Superiors, I will probably end up running the D30 for a couple of years at least. Does anyone know for sure if the Yukons are really that much inferior to the superiors? It would be less painful to remove the Yukons and Longfields or cryo'ed 760's when the D44 was doable.

Sometimes I think I should just hub the D30, drop in a high steer Tera knuckle, brace it and just keep running it...Then I come to my senses and see that a custom D44 starts around 2.2K with all the stuff I want. In addition, I can have my caster and pinion angle both the way I want them.


Bones :skull1:

Lincoln
April 29th, 2004, 18:57
Catalogue lists:
YA W37774 - 95 and newer YJ outter stub with 297 joint (stubs are the same as the XJ from what I can tell visually)
YA W38098 - 87-94 YJ outter stub with 260 joint.

Inners are YA W38821 (LH) and YA W38875 (RH).

Hmmm, don't know what they are selling? Someone correct me on the stubs if I'm wrong.

ECKSJAY
April 29th, 2004, 19:04
i just got off the phone w/ randy's re: the yukon axles, and according to the guy i spoke w/ they don't offer the 4130 outers for the D30... so if you're getting "yukon" axles, you're getting the chromo inners, 760 joints, and dana outers.

$.02

P.S. take it for what it is worth, but he also claimed that their chromo inners aren't wany weaker than the warns or superiors...

Had my friend call them (from his shop) and they told him the same thing. I was looking forward to getting a set of Yukon from Randy's but WTF....I'm not shelling out the $$ for Superior because I'm only running a D30 and 33s. Looks like it'll be replacement Spicers for me all around. Hell, I haven't broken anything to this point anyway (not as hard on the stuff as I've seen others). :) I'll wait and pay up for some Dana 44 stuff when I have one to build.

Bryan C.
April 29th, 2004, 19:11
When I bought my Yukon axleshafts from Rawbrown, he said the alloy outer stub shafts were on backorder until mid May. I wound up getting the Yukon 4340 inners with the Superior outers. I found the same thing in the Yukon catalog as Lincoln. And from what I can tell, the Chrysler parts manual lists the same axleshafts for a 97 XJ and a 97 TJ. Maybe they stopped production on the stub shafts, or only make them as a special order in quantities or something like that. I really don't know for sure.

Bryan

Lincoln
April 29th, 2004, 19:20
Thanks Bryan.

If forgot to add that I don't doubt the Superior and Warn shafts are much better than the Yukon's. The Yukon shafts might be a good middle of the road between Spicer and them.

Rawbrown
April 30th, 2004, 00:20
just to chime in since I am the vendor in question...

nobody got yukon inners with spicer outer except for my own rig. the original deal was meant for yukon inners and outers with 5-760x u-joints pressed in. but expected delivery dates kept getting pushed back for the CrMo Yukon outers. so to keep everyone happy that had paid for a set, I ordered up superior outers.

The part #'s listed below of for stub shafts for the front hub conversion kit.

Bones
April 30th, 2004, 15:13
just to chime in since I am the vendor in question...

nobody got yukon inners with spicer outer except for my own rig. the original deal was meant for yukon inners and outers with 5-760x u-joints pressed in. but expected delivery dates kept getting pushed back for the CrMo Yukon outers. so to keep everyone happy that had paid for a set, I ordered up superior outers.

The part #'s listed below of for stub shafts for the front hub conversion kit.

Ryan,

Thanks for weighing in. I wasn't trying to bag on you, or question your business. I was just trying to understand the difference in costs from one to another. It's great to see a vendor go the extra mile for his/her customers. We need more businesses out there with that credo.

Bones :skull1:

Rawbrown
April 30th, 2004, 16:57
FYI,

Just got a part # for the Yukon D30 outer stub shafts.
YA W39125
ETA is May as it stands.
I won't try and compare and say yukons are better than warn or superior. I will let the MFG do that. what I will say is that 4340 is 4340 steel. its approx 39% stronger than OEM 1040 steel.
Both Yukon and Superior have 5 year warranties on the CrMo front shafts.
superiors are made in Italy. Yukon's are made in India...

Lincoln
April 30th, 2004, 19:44
Thanks for the claification on the stubs. I was wondering why they would list a part number and then say they didn't make them.

You do bring up a good point to. I wonder if it has to do with the heat treating or maybe just plain steel quality. Dutchman lists prices for import and domestic (http://www.dutchmanms.com/pricesheet.html#Anchor-65139) and the import stuff it quite a bit cheaper. If it was just as good as the U.S. steel I think the prices would be closer or they would only offer one. I still think the Warns and Superior's are better than the Yukons, but you pay for it. :dunno:

Anyone know where the Warn's are made? When I replace my 44 shafts I might just have to spend big. I'm all about buying american right now and I especially don't want to buy India.

Thanks,
Lincoln

Loose_Nuts_Enterprises
April 30th, 2004, 19:54
I thought Superior axles were made by Foote Axle and Forge in Los Angeles. Could be wrong though.

Dan

Rawbrown
April 30th, 2004, 20:52
OK, just went back into my notes... plus a quick check on the web. The gears are made in Italy. The shafts are here... but I am question the domestic part about the CrMo front shafts. Warn shafts have no claim on there website about whether they are dom or imp...
no matter what, Warn will bag on Superior and Yukon.
Superior will bag on Warn and Yukon.
and if you call Yukon, they are gonna bag on Superior and Warn...

But just for the sake of arguement, I will call DTD monday am and find out if the CrMo shafts are also made in Italy or not.

Last time I talked to Dutchman I alked about the difference between there import and domestic shafts... He said They both seem to be about the same. no complaints either way.

Lincoln
April 30th, 2004, 21:11
I sure like it when other people do the research. :lecture:

Thanks for the info. I've been trying to decide whether to buy junk yard shafts or some form of alloy. They want to hit me $40 ($160 for inner and outers for both sides) for each piece on used crap. I figured for that price I would buy the Yukons.

Had some bad dealings with some Indian contractors today so I'm really not into buying them now and would spend more to go another route or stick with the used spicers.

Thanks,
Lincoln

Rawbrown
April 30th, 2004, 22:02
compared to what you get used shafts for. it should be that much more for new OEM Dana spicer shafts...

Goatman
May 1st, 2004, 22:16
Bones, the best bet is to sell the D30 complete when you go to the D44. The way you'll end up, it won't be a bad axle at all, and should hold up pretty well to the 35's as long as you don't get stupid and keep it out of a bind. Besides, a nice D44 comes with more body damage........

:D :D

Big Red
December 6th, 2004, 14:56
Revived old thread: :dunno:

Has Petersons, JP, or someone done a real world test and a machine test to test the strength of the Yukon, Superior, Warn, and Dutchman shafts, also compared to a stock Spicer shaft??? I'm looking into them because I really want to run 37's, but could stay with my 35's on my hp 44 front/ford 9" rear.
Troy

jrsxj98
December 6th, 2004, 16:32
Here is a full set of yukons. seems pretty reasonably priced

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=7939602738&category=33728

Big Red
December 6th, 2004, 17:14
Here is a full set of yukons. seems pretty reasonably priced

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=7939602738&category=33728

That's a good price. I might have considered that, but I just got a hp 44/ford 9"that I want to build up. My rev 30 has held up well on my 35's though.
Troy

Kittrell
December 6th, 2004, 18:24
I thought Superior axles were made by Foote Axle and Forge in Los Angeles. Could be wrong though.

Dan

Superior, Warn, and Dutchman all come from Foote Axle and Forge in LA, i'm sure someone will chime in and confirm........... :wierd:

Weasel
December 6th, 2004, 18:30
Warn I'm pretty sure makes their own.

Big Red
December 6th, 2004, 20:11
I hear that Warn used quite a bit less meat around the ears. I would like to get the Superiors and CTMs, but man those are expensive. What do you guys think about the Yukons, Warns, and Dutchmans? I head the Yukons and Dutchmans are make in good ole India. Not Indiana, India. :laugh3:
Are they still quite a bit stronger than the stock shafts? At least they don't neck down. What u-joint would you use on them? The CTM are a bit pricy, but really nice. I hear not to use CTMs on anything but Superiors, especially stock shafts or Warns which are soft and will get warped around the u-joint at the ears. Can anyone back this up?
Troy