trespassing????

Is it tresspassing when you go onto property that is not marked that other people have obviously gone down???

Technically yes, unless it is known public land.

Stupidity/ ignorance is not a legitimate defense in court.

Because the "Public Land" in Indiana, as well as a lot of other states, is still controlled property, the mandatory rule of thumb is to get permission if it "ain't your land". Some land owners or Supervisors make their own trails for land maintenance. This is not an indication it is open for the public. Even though they are supposed to be posted, it is a matter of being considerate ... which seems to be a rare human attribute these days.

Les

If it's not your land, get permission to be there. Just ask my buddy who has a court date at the end of this month for this very thing - and he wasn't even wheeling. It's a long story.

In addition, the sport of off-roading gets a bad rap many times because of irresponsible people doing things they shouldn't- including trespassing. I'd rather not give others opposed to our sport any ammo to use against us.

Somebody who has enough money to buy a peice of property at the head of a canyon, in my oppinion, has no right to deny passage.
Worse yet, is when they have a road graded, under some flavor of the month land useage program. With my and your tax dollar and end up controlling hundreds, thousands or more acres of land, that are public domain. If I have to drive across somebodies property to get out of the ghetto, sorry Charlie and to heck with the white man.
Aggrivates me, that some guy can come in and close a road, that my people have been using for 15,000 years. Personnaly think, ownership,tresspass and a few other adstract thoughts are real over rated. And really a pretty new, last hundred and fifty years or so, way of looking at things. Can understand limiting vehicle traffic for a reason, most times the reason is greed and control.
I´ve gotten a bunch of tresspassing citations, even had my ass beat by the Sherrifs, Most of it is might, not right.
Person who buys a house a hundred yards fromt he beach, does he own the sand to the water? Guy or company that has a mining claim, do they own the land? Most times they just dig a big hole and leave the mess, close the whole area to travel. Most times land useage regulations, are just a way for the few, to control the most.
If you don´t own it, don´t drive on it. Taken to the extreme, could mean, don´t use the streets or maybe I should ask the bank for permission to park in my driveway. :moon:

I can see your point 8Mud ... and the system does suck when there are loop holes. When I bought my home, there was farm ground behind the property (still is) that had no other access than up my driveway. Part of the abstract included an easement so it could be accessed. That does not include, however, "public" access. Sounds like the state (if they sold the land) may have overlooked this when they sold the property adjacent to the Public Land .... (do not know the whole story however ... may be way out in left field here)

Yes, the system of "ownership" is not the same as it was during the pre-US days when the land was not "owned". But even in those days, tribes fought over "control" which caused wars. I'm not so sure any system is absolute ...

If ... and I say if ... you were able to purchase property today, or even back 250 years ago "controlled" the land, wouldn't you want the authority to control who was able to use or abuse your land?

Les

Grew up in So.Cal, did a lot of exploring, spent most my money keeping the Jeep going, instead of other things, some a lot worse, than a Jeep ride. Watched them slowly but surely, close down most of my regular haunts.
Just think, often, people take the mine thing to extremes. As well as the save the nature freaks, that would prohibit fly overs, if they could.
Got shot in the ankle in Nam, always upset me, about 95% of the country is closed to my explorations. Can´t walk more than a few miles, allergic to horses.
In Central Germany, were I´m living now, there are areas closed to vehicular traffic. But very little, is closed because of tresspass. They've had a few hundred more years, to refine there land use policies. Barons don´t have the authority, anymore to close there property, to common sense useage.
I´m a game manager, though my access right is limited, nobody is going to question me beyond the badge. Also few are going to be able to enjoy some of the country I do, because most times it´s just to far, to hard (old people) or discouraged. Always seemed wrong, that if someone was just passing through and not destroying anything, to deny them access or egress, just wrong. Feel most times, the young people, by some master plan are herded into the cities, to many times find trouble or addiction. A drive through the woods or up a desert wash, can really change someones, outlook on things.
Seems the same thing, is being done to much of the normal citizenry, that was done to the indians, herded into reservations or ghetto´s. To a lot of people, the great outdoors, is the city park, small wonder so many go bad, I call it, terminal horizon constipation, there view of the world becomes way to narrow.
I have a decent sized piece of property in South Carolina. The only times anybody gets cited, is for trash, fires or driving through the cultivated parts. Planted black raspberry, on much of it, between the pines. The few paths through, the Jeepers keep open for me. Every few years, take the tractor out and fill in the worst holes. Don´t really see a problem. The Jeep trails, grow weeds, that won´t grow under the pines, foriage for bird and beast. The goverment pays me a stipend to leave it wild, never said, anything about forbidding Jeeps.

I'm not ready to go quite as far as 8Mud. I think if someone OWNS land, he or she has a right to control who has access to it. But ...

When it comes to closing off access to public land, I get upset. Especially the new theory of erasing lines on maps that represent roads which have been in regular use for a couple hundred years, and claiming it's a "roadless wilderness" area. I'm older than 8Mud, and I also have physical limitations that preclude my hiking 75 miles with a backpack. I want a Jeep so I can head out west and explore some of those roads and tracks I've seen looking down from planes as I flew over. Where those roads and trails are in National Forest lands, it seems only fair that I should be allowed to use them to access remote areas to which I can no longer walk.

The new issue of 4 Wheel Drive & Sport Utility has an example. They have an article about an off-pavement trek through Utah to Moab, and at one point they found that a road which has for years allowed automobile traffic is suddenly closed.

It's an outrage, nothing less.

I read that in 4Wheel Drive & Sport Utility Magazine ... I agree it is an "outrage". Seems to me to be a control thing for people. This attitude is prevelent in quite a few aspects of our society in my opinion.

One of the dreams I have for my "semi retirement" years is to be able to go out west and experience some of these old roads. 4Wheel Drive & Sport Utility Magazine has had several articles about some of these trips ... these are my favorite things to read in this mag ...

Les

Read about the Mojave trail trip, planned by the So.Cal chapter, warmed my heart, spent a lot of time, by the water holes. A three day trip, is better than nothing, but you really have to spend a couple of weeks at each water hole, to really get a feel for the area. Every animal in the desert has to come down for a drink every now and then.
Piece of advice, don´t camp on the water. 4-500 yards, is usually the distance an animal can´t stand the stink of human.
Speaking of control, just as an example of what actually goes on sometimes. Wriggly family or some members, owned everything from Encino, Granada hills and Woodland hills to the Ocean (Most of Malibu). Some is still owned by the Indians, which tribe (clan) is still up for debate. Wriggly didn´t sell much of the property, some of it was imminant domained (stolen), some was leased (some on hundred year leases). The Indians didn´t much care if you enjoyed walking up there or not, imagine they understood better than most, what would make a person want to. If you parked your Jeep anywhere in the mountains, you´d often return from your walk to a parking ticket, a $15-30 walk. At the edge of the Wriggly holdings, I heard a land developer argue, that a piece of property, wasn´t being used for anything by anybody, if you parked anywhere near it you got a ticket. Today it´s a parking lot for a super market, a year round spring and creek is running under the parking lot, into the city storm drain system. First they closed it to vehicular traffic, then they closed it to foot traffic, then they set it on fire, then they argued it was usless, then they built on it. I really believe much of the closed, to vehicular traffic and foot traffic (tresspass) is often part of a 10-20 year plan at robbery and the main reason for closure, of public lands, it is to limit the witnesses, possible witnesses or interested parties.
I guess I was some kind of activist, in the old days, early mid 70's, finally gave it up, after getting my skull cracked by the L.A. County Sheriiffs, While standing with one foot, on piece of sand claimed by an East coast Carpet bagger, leased from a Wriggly (who gave me written permission to be there), and the other foot in Federal lands, administered by the State fo California, that was at the time being fought over by both California and the Federal Govt. for possible oil exploration.