saw KOR LA kit today

I saw one of the prototype KOR LA kit's going on today, here's a couple teaser pics:



http://www.pnwjeep.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=622

(pricing is somewhere in this thread)

I should be getting mine sometime this weak. I've checked out (and own/driven) alot of LA kits but I can't find one I like more than this one. If I figured it out right it costs less than RE drop brackets and arms

I will be getting me this setup sometime soon. Cant wait to see them in action!

they don't look so great to me, look like rock-anchors.

mad maXJ said:

they don't look so great to me, look like rock-anchors.

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yeah the 1/2" they stick down past the cross member is really gonna grab a rock :looser:

yeah, how about the 4 inches they hang down past the frame rail?


I have leafs up front, so it doesn't really apply to me. But I know that if I were to ever build a long-arm setup, which I had contemplated for probably hundreds of hours including 3d CAD modeling, I would absolutely make a crossmember that tucks up higher and have the arms mounted to the front of it, not the bottom.

I hear what you are saying, these are 2.5" tall (the mounts) and are sloped at the front and rear so you would slide over them on a rock anyways. The guy building them has been fabbing for a long time (not some 21 year old kid who got a welder for christmas) and he has been involved in rockcrawling comps for quite a while, even helped build a competative XJ. Reality is if this kit won't do it for you, then you should be fabbing your own stuff becuase you are beyond anythingyou can get out of the box.

i'm not saying it's not a good kit, but there are already a couple good kits out there. if you're going to all the effort of making a new kit, you need to make either significantly better or significantly cheaper than what's out there already. this doesn't seem to do either. when going to all the effort of designing a production suspension, why not just tuck up the mounts inside the framerails? it's been done many times by Joe-Shmoe with a welder.

and another thing, how does it bolt to the "frame" rails? it looks like just a bolt through, then through a seperate peice of plate on the inside. is there a sleeve in there so that the "frame" rail doesn't crush down?

I much prefer something welded on, and it's not as scary or difficult as some would leave you to believe.

Am I missing something or did he put the superflex joint on the wrong end?

Also, what are the on-road ramifications of running without upper arms? Trailer queens only? Should one expect to fail a safety inspection with a setup like this?

$200 less than the next cheapest longarm kit isn't "significantly cheaper"??

It is on my planet.

I'm building my own, so this doesn't appeal to me. Like it's been said, the attachment point needs to be moved up. This is why mine will actually have the attachment point above the bottom of the transfer crossmember. I'm doinc similar to this setup, though, and going with c-channel bolted to the framerail. No worries of crushing the factory bits, since it's 1/4" section cchannel I'm using. I'll weld it once I get a quality MIG. I don't think I'd be able to weld it properly with my monstrous arc box.

I'll have the c-channel, with a crossmember welded under it in 2x2 box, with a flat plate going across between them. This will lower my transfer case <for some reason, the poly tranny mount I put in is 1.5" taller than stock- WTF?> and address the vibration I'm getting with my 5" lift <yes, I'll eventually go with a SYE, but this solution is presently the ideal way to go> without coming any lower than the factory crossmember did. My arm mounts will be 1/4"X2.5" c-channel, with a sleeve through the box and the c-channel through which the arm mount bolt will pass, holding the whole bit together mechanically in an interlocking fashion. The welds holding it all together are merely secondary. Thus, no worries whatsoever.

On my application, rubber bushes at the frame, johnny joints at the axle, and a similar setup with the upper arms <in a radius arm fashion>. Next year I'll be putting in a EB D44, and will just adapt the factory ford radius arms to this setup. As near a bolt-in D44 front axle swap as you'll find for less than $1000 <axle, my longarms, etc>.

First of all this is a proto type kit and not even complete at the time that when he took the pictures.

Just to answer a few critiques--

On the back side of the fram is a 2.5x12x1/4" plate the outer bracket is also made from 1/4" material.It does not crush the body channel at all because of the surface area of the load.

The kit is recommended to be welded in.But not nescesary.

The flex joint is at the body end because the upper radius arms minimize there effect when they are at the axle end. When I build something the prority is trailperformance. This is a test to see which way works better.

I don't want the suspension mounted to the cross member for the simple reason that every time you need to work on your case or what ever it is a major hassel. Everyone who has that type of set knows what I mean.

This is still in R&D so I am exploring different routes to go. These pictures were put out way to soon.

Oh and 1 more thing trying to build something anybody can install on any XJ is a lot harder to design then something you build as a one off custom peice.


Have a nice day.

mad maXJ said:

they don't look so great to me, look like rock-anchors.

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Ditto!

As far as I'm concerned, any long arm kit that mounts the arms BELOW the frame rails is junk, and is worthless. Sorry to be so blunt (maybe not), but this is getting old. There are a couple of nice advantages to long arms, IF there is no significant loss of ground clearance. With the arms hanging down like in these pics, they will indeed become rock anchors.....seen it many times.

Again, back to 4x4 basics, hanging up something underneath on a rock (or dirt) stops you on the trail more often than a lack of traction. A LA kit does nothing to increase traction, and little to increase flex (which also has little to do with traction with lockers).

I still just don't get it......why all the rah! rah! about crappy long arm designs? :banghead:

A well done LA is not easy to do, and once you're into doing what it takes to get the mounts tucked up nicely, you're doing enough fabbing for it to make sense doing something with a shorter arm that will provide good control arm angles with much less compromising of ground clearance, or do a simple J arm setup. :dunno:

OK I'll get off my :soapbox:

Maybe not quite yet, since I see that Ken just posted. Why don't you come up with a bolt on mid-arm kit, which would actually provide better trail performance? Back to my biggest argument against low hanging long arms.......why would you make a modification to a trail rig that only works better on the street? (Well, it gives a much better ride)

Goatman said:

Ditto!

As far as I'm concerned, any long arm kit that mounts the arms BELOW the frame rails is junk, and is worthless. Sorry to be so blunt (maybe not), but this is getting old. There are a couple of nice advantages to long arms, IF there is no significant loss of ground clearance. With the arms hanging down like in these pics, they will indeed become rock anchors.....seen it many times.

Again, back to 4x4 basics, hanging up something underneath on a rock (or dirt) stops you on the trail more often than a lack of traction. A LA kit does nothing to increase traction, and little to increase flex (which also has little to do with traction with lockers).

I still just don't get it......why all the rah! rah! about crappy long arm designs? :banghead:

A well done LA is not easy to do, and once you're into doing what it takes to get the mounts tucked up nicely, you're doing enough fabbing for it to make sense doing something with a shorter arm that will provide good control arm angles with much less compromising of ground clearance, or do a simple J arm setup. :dunno:

OK I'll get off my :soapbox:

Maybe not quite yet, since I see that Ken just posted. Why don't you come up with a bolt on mid-arm kit, which would actually provide better trail performance? Back to my biggest argument against low hanging long arms.......why would you make a modification to a trail rig that only works better on the street? (Well, it gives a much better ride)

Click to expand...

Interesting discussion, Richard...
What's your opinion on the drop bracket set-up that RE uses instead of a long arm configuration? I'm curious 'cause that's what I have now. If I'm not really going to gain anything with a long arm set-up, I think I'll spend the time and bucks elsewhere and stay where I'm at.
TIA!

I am not opposed to mounting higher but it requires some pretty extensive mods. I am not sure if this will make the install beyond the grasp of average people. Like I said before this is still in development stages and is not a set design yet. I realsed a few sets all different to local people in my club for testing. I realy am not to happy with this thread even exsisting.Because of the fact that I haven't finsished them yet.


Why don't all of you critics give me a chance to finish design before you start running me into the ground. I do welcome ideas constructive ideas. Tell me what you want.

My goals are to keep the costs down and have a quality kit. It has to be applicable to any XJ and be fairly easy to install or they will not sell.

Kensoffroad said:

Why don't all of you critics give me a chance to finish design before you start running me into the ground. I do welcome ideas constructive ideas. Tell me what you want.

My goals are to keep the costs down and have a quality kit. It has to be applicable to any XJ and be fairly easy to install or they will not sell.

Click to expand...

The critics are usually the ones that have been there and done that, and know what works or doesnt. They dont want some noob highschool guy seeing your stuff and thinking that they are the greatest thing since sliced bread. People criticize because they dont want bogus info put out, and this is a Tech Forum, so get a thicker skin when it comes to people making comments about your stuff.

Cost should not be your #1 priority. That is like making a rollcage that doesnt affect how you get in and out, or affect your glove box. If you are going to build a performance part, build based on performance needs, not price and the ease of selling.

Fergie

burntkat said:

$200 less than the next cheapest longarm kit isn't "significantly cheaper"??

It is on my planet.

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It's only $50 cheaper when you factor in the HD crossmember that the *other* kit comes with.

Kensoffroad said:

Why don't all of you critics give me a chance to finish design before you start running me into the ground. I do welcome ideas constructive ideas. Tell me what you want.

Click to expand...

i'm glad you're open to suggestions, I think it's clear that people would like the mounts tucked up as much as possible. as far as having to mess with suspension to pull the tranny or t-case; i've had my suspension completely apart at least 2 dozen time in the last 2 years and only pulled the tranny and t-case once in that time. I think it's a rare enough event to warrant a little extra work.



And for those saying the RE superflex joints are on the wrong end, you are wrong. you need rubber (or poly) at the axle end to account for the inherent bind in a radius arm suspension. the body end will articulate more. hence the joint should be there.

I posted these up just give some people that had been asking about them a peek.

I guess I should have known better than to post it on here. I think Ken needs to upgrade his software the CAD he used must not have had a large enough rock!

Any kit you buy the mounts are going to hang down below the cross member about 1/2" even if it's on the cross member, it is just inboard. the price he is offering them at now is more than reasonable. the heims/joints/tubing first hand and they aren't some cheapo's. I've lifted alot of jeeps (and I mean alot) and seen alot of kits and built alot of my own stuff. and I actually wheel (sometimes ) along with drive my jeep to work everyday with my daughter in it and this is the one I chose.

Like I already said, if you need more clearance than this you should probably be building your own stuff anyways.

I guess I don't post enough here to be taken seriously ,

And people wonder why I don't post here. This board is becoming more like POR and it's a shame. Some really knowledgable folks.

If it was so easy to make something, why aren't more of you folks in business and offering killer discounts? Someone worded it well in saying if it needs to be that custom .. you should be doing it yourself. There is a way to point out short comings without slamming a person. I'm assuming we adults in here ... but the postings of people seem to indicate otherwise.

But it does not give you the right to put the design down as bad. And price is the driving cost for 99% of the people on the boards. I can't tell you how many sales I've missed becasue I was 5 bucks more than "the other guy" and I was selling at my cost. Tell you what ... let me offer a pricing. I'll charge 5% MORE than the highest price i can find. Then we'll see if price really doesn't matter.

There is a difference between thicker skin and being downright cruel. Amazing how this board has changed over the last few years. :doh: Come on guys ... constructive criticism is one thing, and calling it a rock anchor/bad design when it's clearly stated it's not done yet .......

Can't wait to see what happens when my own stuff gets posted in here.

Joe
EndlessMtnFab

Joe Attardo said:

Can't wait to see what happens when my own stuff gets posted in here.

Joe
EndlessMtnFab

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Post some pix of your stuff and we'll let you know what we think about it.

Honestly I see nothing wrong with people pointing out what they preceive as design flaws when someone comes on here posting "spy pixs" of a "new design". I mean what are you expecting? If you want oohhhhs and aaahhhs post it on JU. We are somewhere between JU and POR, I (ME, my opinion) believe we are a lot more Modified Tech orientented then JU but not as harsh as POR.
I have built my own LA design for myself, and based on the work I've done, I agree that the frame end mount on those is placed poorly. I would not want to be in the 4x4 market place, it is overrun with everyone and their brother thinking since they can weld and grind that they should open a shop. It'll make it hard for the good shops to suceed, but the cream does rise to the top. Retail sales are a compromise, same reason Jeep doesn't build a true rock crawler, small market demand, easier to build something pretty good that will appeal to a large market.
Also remember, the oringinal posted may have stated "prototype" he als stated he was getting one this weak (his spelling, not mine ). Which would lead a reader to believe that these are now available. It was not until the manufacturer posted that it was made clear that work was still being done to finalize the design, so you can't falt the earlier posters there.
So, let's see your stuff!

JnJ,

I'm not saying not constructive criticism is bad. Please don't take it that way. But I guess I was raised to have a little bit of tact. I would hope if there was a serious flaw or even something minor .. would get pointed out.

I've been watching this board for a long time and used to be more active in it. I have noticed a change in it tho.

The market is hard to compete in and it doesn't take much to knock an up & coming individual. I guess, being in the same boat and having been on the receiving end of e-trolls, I felt it wise to speak up. I tried to be fair in what i typed (except for the sarcastic pricing comment).

As for what's being made ... I'll keep it low key for now and just sell the parts and deal with locals until i refine things to my liking more. :scared: And I'll continue with the repairs as they hopefully come to me.

Regards

Joe
EndlessMtnFab