First post ... experienced Jeeper, new XJ owner, need tech

Howdy all: First post on this forum and hoping to get some good tech help here. You guys are pretty well-known across the wheeling community. I'm a long-time Jeeper here in Arizona, but a first-time XJ owner. My last rig was a built (i.e., trailered) YJ with custom-width 60s, 38.5 SX, detroit/spool, 5.13s, 4:1 case, high-steer, full cage, blah, blah, blah.

Sold that rig last year (post-divorce) and am really missing wheeling. Wanted to build something different. Scored an 86 Cherokee for $400 and it now sits in my garage. Body is in excellent shape. It was a blown 2.8 V6 (junk), unknown auto tranny (ideas????) and what appears to be a 207 or 208 t-case (I'm not familiar with these cases). Axles are a D30 and 35 which will go to the junk pile. Interior is fair, but I'll be gutting it anyway.

Here's my plan: Street-legal rig that's safe and reasonable to drive to the trails. Will see all but the most extreme rockcrawling duty. Probably 37 to 39-inch radial tires, full interior cage with seat tie-ins; cage will run through the floor boards to help stiffen the chassis. Beyond that, I'll be replacing most or all of the drivetrain and both axles. I may also go to leafs in the front, though that's undecided.

At this point, I'm free to do anything I want with the only constraint being budget (I'm a cheap bastard!!) That means I'm looking for reasonable drivetrain swaps (engine, tranny, t-case). I may wish to stay with a six cylinder as I'm not a power junkie. If I do that, I'll probably stay with 3/4-ton axles rather than 1-tons. I also have the option of going to Chevy axles if necessary (right dump) to facilitate a decent drivetrain. I do wish to stay with an auto tranny.

Sorry for the length of my post. Any good tech or links to this sort of information would be appreciated. I'm just a little excited about my new project!!
Dion

It sounds like yer the kind of guy that doesn't need any tech at all!

you have pretty ambitious plans there, thats for sure!

3.4 out of a Camaro to replace the 2.8, run it on LPG (propane) if you want to really have some fun. Tranny should be a 904, good tranny, a lot of competitors are actually putting these in their buggys as they mate up to I think it's the Shortstar engine. T-case is decent, but not for big meats, flip a D300 (don't buy the kit, you can do it yourself for $20). Or leave the D300 to the passenger side and run Chevy or Toyota axles.

If you're lookin to stay somewhat narrow (seems to be good in AZ) I would look into Toyota axles, they can be built for 37s for WAY less than Dana axles. If you want full width, Chevy (pass. side) D60 or D44/warns/ctms, or Ford (drivers side) D60 or D44/warns/ctms

Leaf springs are simple, there have been many debates on it here, I have leafs up front and more and more people are doing it. It won't be as good as a *great* link/coil setup, but it takes a LOT of work to do a great link suspension on an XJ. Leafs = simple, cheap, pretty dang effective.

Cage is a must with a strong emphasis on unibody rigidity. Check out CRASH's cage, I think his is the best one I've seen yet for frame tie-ins and structural rigidity.

Ford 302 v-8s go in place of the v6 easily, and I hear Chevy V8s do (s10s do it all the time.

Something to consider.




Oh and PS, Welcome n00b!

hjeepxj said:

Ford 302 v-8s go in place of the v6 easily, and I hear Chevy V8s do (s10s do it all the time.

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You run a Ford 302 in a Cherokee or know someone who does?

hey if your trashin the dana 30 I will take it off your hands

Thanks for the noobie welcome! ;-) I'm experienced in building SWB Jeeps. Just needed a heads-up of things to watch out for in a unibody buildup. No first-hand experience, so I thought I'd ask the experts.

If someone has a link/writeup for swapping to leaf springs in the front, I'd appreciate it. Also specific XJ drivetrain swaps would be cool. I've heard the Chevy 4.3 is a good swap. My tranny (assuming it's a 904) will bolt right up? Anyone have 904 specs (first gear ratio, hop-ups, etc.)? Will a D-300 xfer case bolt up to the 904? I can easily get Chevy axles, so a passenger dump isn't a big deal. A link to Crash's page would be nice. I want to do an internal cage only; no exo.

My previous rig was 84 inches outside tire to outside tire; nearly perfect for most of the hardcore AZ trails. Want to stay that width or narrower. Thanks for all the info so far.
Dion

Oh, I'm giving the D30 back to the PO for another project.

MaXJohnson said:

You run a Ford 302 in a Cherokee or know someone who does?

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A buddy of mine does.

Blatant,

Check out pirate 4x4 for the front leaves.... http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billavista/Leafspring_conversion/leafs.htm

Awesome site. Sounds like you have a lot of ambitions for your XJ, good luck and welcome.

i'm pretty sure the 4.3 doesn't bolt up to the 904. the 2.8(and 904) are for the Chavy 60 degree V engines which also includes the 3.1, 3.4 and I think the shortstar. the 4.3, 305, 350, etc are 90 degree V engines and use the 700r4, TH350, TH400 auto trannies.

i'm pretty sure all that is right, but i am no chevy expert. i do know the 3.4 is a relatively easy swap, power about equal to the 4.0, and a very lightweight engine. Add propane to the mix and you get some more power, and can run at any angle. If I was to ever build a budget buggy, it would be 3.4onLPG/904/D300w4:1 for the drivetrain.

mad maXJ said:

i'm pretty sure the 4.3 doesn't bolt up to the 904. the 2.8(and 904) are for the Chavy 60 degree V engines which also includes the 3.1, 3.4 and I think the shortstar. the 4.3, 305, 350, etc are 90 degree V engines and use the 700r4, TH350, TH400 auto trannies.

i'm pretty sure all that is right, but i am no chevy expert. i do know the 3.4 is a relatively easy swap, power about equal to the 4.0, and a very lightweight engine. Add propane to the mix and you get some more power, and can run at any angle. If I was to ever build a budget buggy, it would be 3.4onLPG/904/D300w4:1 for the drivetrain.

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Knowing the 3.4L and the 4.0 (both in their respective vehicles) they don't have the same power. 4.0L has better torque and power.

If you can get a V6 in there, why not yank a 3.8 series II motor and trans (4le60) from a 96 up Camaro/Firebird? Junking the electroic trans is easy and go to the 700r4 (these are golden to chevy guys).

Just thoughts to help... but I'm still wet behind the ears :greensmok

well, if you're talking 3.8, go with the Buick 3.8 supercharged

I really think that the 3.4 if rebuilt right, with the right cam, and LPG would be very similar to a 4.0, and much lighter, and you get that forklift smell

You're correct, sir. I mean to type 3.4 and my dyslexia got the best of me ;-)

As I understand it, the 904 tranny will bolt up to the Chevy 3.4. Will a Dana 300 case mate to the 904? Anyone know? Chevy, passenger drop axles are plentiful, so probs with a 300 for me.

I am interested in hearing experience with the 3.4L V6. My experience is with the 4.0HO Jeep motor in my previous rockcrawler. That stock motor made plenty of power and torque (with the low t-case and axles gears) for my needs. Is the 3.4 V6 going to come close to that or should I start looking elsewhere?

Thanks for the POR link. Found it earlier this afternooon and bookmarked.
Dion

Well if you have to swap in a motor and computer and what not I would go small ford. As long as smog is a non issue. A bronco 302/351 with efi, trans and t-case would be a great setup.

For 36-37 inch tires I am guessing you are thinking dana 44 up front. I would use the front 44 and rear 9 inch out of a 79 vintage ford 1/2 ton or bronco. Build a crossmember and run the ford radius arms with an RE joint at the crossmember end. You can flip the coil pads on the ford radius arms to narrow the coil stance a bit to make it fit the xj coil buckets okay. Then you can keep the coils up front and its probably less difficult then fabbing up some covered wagon technolgy leaves up front. The rear 9 inch essentually bolts in. You will be about 4 inches wider front and rear. Which will stick out a bit but not terribly bad.

Tires, I would run 35 or 37 mtrs, no brainer. You might want to consider some warn shafts and ctms for up front, but if you are nice you may be able to run some 760s with bushings instead of needle bearings. Though I would lean the warns and ctms route, I know now you are in the 60/44 debate.

Yes the unibody needs reinforcing, check the posts by Jes for his cage, rocker panel, framerail protection post and pictures, I think that will give you a solid foundation. Also the steering box needs reinforcement, a search will give you all that debate.

t-case, I guess a flipped 300 with a 4-1 kit. I haven't researched the $20 flip kit and am a bit dubious, but it looks like Brett has researched it more than me. I currently run a 4-1 in my 231 and like it.

Essentually that is what I would do if I were to start over and wanted to run 35s-37s Except I would be tempted to sell your cherokee and invest in one with a good 4.0 aw4 combo, It may cost you an extra grand but it would probably be worth it.

for 904 to D300 info check here, i'm not sure if the guy knows what he's talking about or not: http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=213129&highlight=3.4

the 3.4 is rated at 155hp 195lb/ft for some, 210/215, and 200/240, I don't know which versions each of those is for. good info here: http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=213289&highlight=3.4 even with the weakest one, you could probably bump it up to 4.0 range (190/220?) with some tuning, cam, and lpg

read this one too, sounds like the D300 is a direct bolt up: http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=201740&highlight=3.4

and this guy is using the 3.4 in his buggy: http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=196864



I also saw there that the 3.8 supercharged Buick motor bolts up to the 904, find one of those!! a girl i know has that motor in her Park Ave and that 6000 lb beast is fast.

Now with LPG that would be interesting. If you want to find the most info about the 3.4 or other V6's, you can look here: http://www.60degreev6.com/ or if you want to poke around my site and see what my members are doing, please feel free www.camarov6.com

Thinking about it... if money was no real object (yeah right) a new baby Northstar would be a fun motor to play with. Or even the DOHC 3.4.

Whatever you do, if in the V6 world... keep us posted. Should be interesting :cheers:

Gary definitely has a point with finding a 4.0/AW4 combo, it's a lot of work to try and match that combination.

the F150 HPD44 and 9" is a great recomendation as well, but I would try to find a 77 F150 to get the stronger tubes (welded not cast wedges).

right on with the 760s with bushings if you're going 35-37, but you said you're leaning 37-39, so I would say just do it once, do it right, and get Warns/CTMs

the D300 flip has been done by a guy on PBB with lots of pictures and great success, as well as someone here did it more recently. It's cheap, and straightforward, but will be timeconsuming (the other guys estimated something like 10-15 hours) and will require you being comfortable with some medium fabrication.

If you go passenger side drop, Chevy axles are dirt cheap, but they are all low-pinion. 79 and older Waggy D44s are passenger drop and 61-62 inches wide. I don't know that I would run a Chevy rear however. The 10 and 12 bolts are D44 strength and use C-clips. The 14 bolt can be had in the C&C version at 63" wide and is pretty much unbreakable, but it is a ditch digger. I think I would be leaning towards a 9" or D60 if you're going full-width, or a Toyota 8" or 8.25" if you're staying around 60" wide... oooh, or the T100 or Tundra 8.25 if you're going fullwidth. Toy axles, better than D44 strength, D35 clearance, tons of aftermarket, low factory ratios, factory e-lockers..... on and on, I'm a believer...




If you'll allow me to ramble again about my dreams... my dream axles (within reason, Volvos are my real dream) would be to a Tundra/t100 in the rear, and put fullsize D44 tubes and outers on a Toy 8" centersection (Welderboy from PBB, in Rancho Cordova does this). The D44 axles will actually fit in a 8" carrier, so I could get custom Warn/CTMs, and still carry junkyard spares. 37inch Krawlers or 38.5 SXs would be matched to this combination.

TealV6 said:

Now with LPG that would be interesting. If you want to find the most info about the 3.4 or other V6's, you can look here: http://www.60degreev6.com/ or if you want to poke around my site and see what my members are doing, please feel free www.camarov6.com

Thinking about it... if money was no real object (yeah right) a new baby Northstar would be a fun motor to play with. Or even the DOHC 3.4.

Whatever you do, if in the V6 world... keep us posted. Should be interesting :cheers:

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yup, my vote in order of best to worst; Shortstar (Northstar Al V8 with 2 cylinders lopped off), then 3.8 supercharged Buick, then 3.4 on LPG. Unfortuneatly the prices also reflect proportionally on best to worse, so realistically I would run the 3.4 on LPG

Thanks for all the great tech, you guys. Much appreciated. Like I said, I do expect this rig to be streetable and it will need to pass smog. Not having done a motor swap on a post-smog rig, I'm assuming any engine newer than my rig (86) would be feasible.

For now, I'm looking at the 3.4 to hook up my 904 tranny. I may also look into a 4.3 with a 700r4 behind it if I can find a good deal.

Don't be scared of the 14-bolt. My buddy was able to cut off a ton at the bottom of the axle, even shaving the ring gear slightly. He ended up with more clearance than my shaved 60.

I think I may stick with D44 or 9-inch. Trying to keep the weight down as well as the costs. Thanks again.
Dion

The 904 is a very good trans...popular in dragracing smallblock mopars...no overdrive...it does have a hydraulic actuated lock up converter...this feature can be disabled if desired by a good trans professional...the bellhousing pattern is indeed the "small" GM pattern, a variety of V-6 and 4 cyl gm engines will bolt up...the 4.3 chevy will not fit it, those use the "V-8" bellhousing pattern...The 700R4 GM from a 2.8 S-10 or Blazer is a good choice too if properly built, it has a much lower 1st gear, "87's and up have the better internals (according to my trans mechanic)...be aware to check the output spline count to match the TC you will be using...If you choose to go with a 4.0...find a GM TH400 tranny from a Waggy...One of the strongest auto's ever built...and no need for electronics to operate it...the transfer case should be a NP207...if you want low crawl ratios...get a different transfer case...not much available in the aftermarket for a 207...