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Alloy shafts or Rockwells? (long)

vintagespeed

NAXJA Forum User
Location
Upland, CA
Ok, call me crazy but I'm seriously contemplating tearing down my Junk for round 2 of suspension fab.

I spent the better part of this past year building a 3 link + TB front with a HP 3/4 ton D44, 14B rear, hi-steer, ARB, 38s & coilovers. It came out well with the exception of a DW problem. This could be caused by unbalanced 38" TSLs on beadlocks, but I dont know.

In order to make the front axle stout enough for the 38s I was planning on installing ChroMo axleshafts & CTMs. This will be on the order of $1200-1300 or more cause the shafts have to be made to length because the D44 is an F250 model not the F150 standard size 44.

This is where I find my quandry. I can make the front strong enough for the 38s by spending a sh*tload of $$$$ OR I can buy a pair of Rockwells ($750 PAIR) with enough left over to get at least 1 locker for the same price.

The plan would be to move the front axle forward an inch or two to fit the Rockwell with flex room, build a upside-down triangulated 3 link front & run full hydraulic steering. This would all be mounted on a sub frame to add some strength for mounting points. With 6.72 gears & 38s my rpms at 65mph in OD (AW4) would be 2810 or so, which is back to stock.

To fit the axles correctly I'd have some new hubs machined that'll fit my 8 lug wheel pattern with discs & position them as narrow as possible but still protect the drive flanges with my 5 3/8" b/s beadlocks. I'm targeting about 73" wms to wms with the custom hubs, about 4" wider than I am now.

Anyone have any idea how much it might cost to machine some custom hubs? Is it possible to trim down the OD of the hubs to a little less than 5" so that my wheels will fit (I love my wheels)?
 
vintagespeed said:
Ok, call me crazy but I'm seriously contemplating tearing down my Junk for round 2 of suspension fab.

I spent the better part of this past year building a 3 link + TB front with a HP 3/4 ton D44, 14B rear, hi-steer, ARB, 38s & coilovers. It came out well with the exception of a DW problem. This could be caused by unbalanced 38" TSLs on beadlocks, but I dont know.

In order to make the front axle stout enough for the 38s I was planning on installing ChroMo axleshafts & CTMs. This will be on the order of $1200-1300 or more cause the shafts have to be made to length because the D44 is an F250 model not the F150 standard size 44.

This is where I find my quandry. I can make the front strong enough for the 38s by spending a sh*tload of $$$$ OR I can buy a pair of Rockwells ($750 PAIR) with enough left over to get at least 1 locker for the same price.

The plan would be to move the front axle forward an inch or two to fit the Rockwell with flex room, build a upside-down triangulated 3 link front & run full hydraulic steering. This would all be mounted on a sub frame to add some strength for mounting points. With 6.72 gears & 38s my rpms at 65mph in OD (AW4) would be 2810 or so, which is back to stock.

To fit the axles correctly I'd have some new hubs machined that'll fit my 8 lug wheel pattern with discs & position them as narrow as possible but still protect the drive flanges with my 5 3/8" b/s beadlocks. I'm targeting about 73" wms to wms with the custom hubs, about 4" wider than I am now.

Anyone have any idea how much it might cost to machine some custom hubs? Is it possible to trim down the OD of the hubs to a little less than 5" so that my wheels will fit (I love my wheels)?

WOW.........6:72's, 38's, 65mph @ 2800rpm :confused: . All the while I thought my 33's with 4:56's @2500rpm on the highway was a pig. I wish I had the power to run 65mph on the steeps. I just can't see this beast being driven at highway speeds much.

Sorry, this has nothing to do what so ever with what your looking for. Just can't imagine your rig at highway speeds.

BTW........great looking XJ. Looking forward to seeing what you do to the front end :peace: .
 
Mojo Troll said:
WOW.........6:72's, 38's, 65mph @ 2800rpm :confused: . All the while I thought my 33's with 4:56's @2500rpm on the highway was a pig. I wish I had the power to run 65mph on the steeps. I just can't see this beast being driven at highway speeds much.

Sorry, this has nothing to do what so ever with what your looking for. Just can't imagine your rig at highway speeds.

BTW........great looking XJ. Looking forward to seeing what you do to the front end :peace: .

Yeah, I've driven it at 75mph down the Cahone pass here in CA, it's vibe free above 55mph. At 50-55 it has a hint of DW, but I just keep the hammer down. :) According to the calculator with my current 5.13s I'm turning 2100 which is about right and it's way undergeared.

Here's the calculator I used: http://www.dfw-tx4wd.org/gears.html
 
azxjman said:
yes oh and I forgot its high pinon to

That's the thing, I just sunk $1800 into my front axle, 5.13 gears, ARB, hi-steer, brakes, seals & etc.

Even if I get a front 60 I've still gotta do the same, on top of $900 just for a housing?

This is a good example of why I want a Rockwell.....
 
Fullsizexj said:
I still think you otta buy 2 front Rockwells and do rear steer at the same time

Of course you do, you've got the same illness as me. ;) However, if I do that I've gotta ditch the rear leafs!

-jb
 
vintagespeed said:
That's the thing, I just sunk $1800 into my front axle, 5.13 gears, ARB, hi-steer, brakes, seals & etc.

Even if I get a front 60 I've still gotta do the same, on top of $900 just for a housing?

This is a good example of why I want a Rockwell.....


its complete shafts and all
 
azxjman said:
its complete shafts and all

Yeah, and it's a good deal for a 60. BUT I'm still gonna need gears, ARB, hi-steer......which is more than I'd pay for the pair of Rockwells. Now, if you'd caught me 11 months ago........
 
vintagespeed said:
Of course you do, you've got the same illness as me. ;) However, if I do that I've gotta ditch the rear leafs!

-jb

So whats wrong with that, they are just warped peices of metal anyway, oh wait now I see why you relate to them
 
Fullsizexj said:
So whats wrong with that, they are just warped peices of metal anyway, oh wait now I see why you relate to them

After seeing YOUR rear droop, I'm very tempted to do a 1/4 elliptic rear or maybe coilover..... But if I do the new axles I'll have enough work on my hands just finishing the front, again. Although this time there wont be any DW problems cause I'll lose the TB for good!
 
I see two snags with you plan:

#1 The pumpkin is huge on the deuces - were talkin 13"+ above the axle centerline - while I think you jeep is tall; it will be even taller with rockwells under it

#2 - the hub idea will not work - unless you make new drive flanges, spindles and source a smaller bearing to fit inside your new hub (the stub shaft is a tight fit inside the OEM spindle - so they might have to be machined too)... The hub diameter on a rockwell is 6.5" - this would put your 8 lug pattern half way inside the stock hub... trust me there is not lots of room in there (plus now you have to find a new way to secure the axle boots to the hub)

Not to rain on your party but until you have worked up close and personal with a pair of rockwells you are making some assumptions that just won't happen....

rear_tub3.jpg
 
I think it boils down to 2 things: weight, and time vs. money

weight: Rockwells are HEAVY. the weight is low and unsprung. some people think this is a great thing, some think it is horrible, you decide. keep in mind that just about every competitor puts water in their tires now.

time vs. money: Rockwells will be cheaper, but require more time. Dana;s will be more expensive but require less time. Between setting up new CA mounts, subframing, etc, etc, it will take many more hours than just throwing some alloys in a D44. You decide how much your time is worth.


another alternative: why are you wanting alloys? have you been breaking shafts frequently? you can buy many, many stock shafts for the cost of going to alloys or rockwells. you can also get the Longfield u-joints (brass bushings) that are stronger than 760s, not as much as CTMs but much cheaper.
 
Matt said:
I see two snags with you plan:

#1 The pumpkin is huge on the deuces - were talkin 13"+ above the axle centerline - while I think you jeep is tall; it will be even taller with rockwells under it

#2 - the hub idea will not work - unless you make new drive flanges, spindles and source a smaller bearing to fit inside your new hub (the stub shaft is a tight fit inside the OEM spindle - so they might have to be machined too)... The hub diameter on a rockwell is 6.5" - this would put your 8 lug pattern half way inside the stock hub... trust me there is not lots of room in there (plus now you have to find a new way to secure the axle boots to the hub)

Not to rain on your party but until you have worked up close and personal with a pair of rockwells you are making some assumptions that just won't happen....

rear_tub3.jpg

do you have any more pics of that posted anywhere? lookin pretty sweet! the rams are for ride-height adjustment right? do you have them on the front too?
 
mad maXJ said:
do you have any more pics of that posted anywhere? lookin pretty sweet! the rams are for ride-height adjustment right? do you have them on the front too?

There are more pics here:

http://home.off-road.com/~wanderingwillys/xjpics/Buggy_Stuff/

The rams are for ride height control of the rear end - the front is going to be set up with fox air shox...

I am waiting on a radiator and then I need to redo the belly as there was more room below the engine and tranny than I expected...

Matt
 
Matt said:
I see two snags with you plan:

#1 The pumpkin is huge on the deuces - were talkin 13"+ above the axle centerline - while I think you jeep is tall; it will be even taller with rockwells under it

#2 - the hub idea will not work - unless you make new drive flanges, spindles and source a smaller bearing to fit inside your new hub (the stub shaft is a tight fit inside the OEM spindle - so they might have to be machined too)... The hub diameter on a rockwell is 6.5" - this would put your 8 lug pattern half way inside the stock hub... trust me there is not lots of room in there (plus now you have to find a new way to secure the axle boots to the hub)

Good, this is what I was looking for in info.

#1, I read that the center chunk was 9.75" above the tube. Is this wrong? Can you measure yours to confirm? I have 13" above the tube to play with right now, and I was planning on adding a couple inches with the Rockwells.

#2, the hubs would be the same dimensions and attach to the spindle the same, only the wheel mounting surface would be moved. So why wouldn't that work? I didn't know the hub diameter was 6.5", do you know what the diameter of the spindle is at the bearing surfaces? I'm sure I can find smaller OD bearings to fit a custom hub. The hub center needs to be 5" or less. Do you have a pic of how the axle boot attaches to the hub? It doesn't sit under the spindle mounting surface?
 
vintagespeed said:
Matt said:
I see two snags with you plan:

#1 The pumpkin is huge on the deuces - were talkin 13"+ above the axle centerline - while I think you jeep is tall; it will be even taller with rockwells under it

#2 - the hub idea will not work - unless you make new drive flanges, spindles and source a smaller bearing to fit inside your new hub (the stub shaft is a tight fit inside the OEM spindle - so they might have to be machined too)... The hub diameter on a rockwell is 6.5" - this would put your 8 lug pattern half way inside the stock hub... trust me there is not lots of room in there (plus now you have to find a new way to secure the axle boots to the hub)

Good, this is what I was looking for in info.

#1, I read that the center chunk was 9.75" above the tube. Is this wrong? Can you measure yours to confirm? I have 13" above the tube to play with right now, and I was planning on adding a couple inches with the Rockwells.

#2, the hubs would be the same dimensions and attach to the spindle the same, only the wheel mounting surface would be moved. So why wouldn't that work? I didn't know the hub diameter was 6.5", do you know what the diameter of the spindle is at the bearing surfaces? I'm sure I can find smaller OD bearings to fit a custom hub. The hub center needs to be 5" or less. Do you have a pic of how the axle boot attaches to the hub? It doesn't sit under the spindle mounting surface?

Good, this is what I was looking for in info.

#1, I read that the center chunk was 9.75" above the tube. Is this wrong? Can you measure yours to confirm? I have 13" above the tube to play with right now, and I was planning on adding a couple inches with the Rockwells.

#2, the hubs would be the same dimensions and attach to the spindle the same, only the wheel mounting surface would be moved. So why wouldn't that work? I didn't know the hub diameter was 6.5", do you know what the diameter of the spindle is at the bearing surfaces? I'm sure I can find smaller OD bearings to fit a custom hub. The hub center needs to be 5" or less. Do you have a pic of how the axle boot attaches to the hub? It doesn't sit under the spindle mounting surface?

The height above tube top is more like 11"; the tubes are 3.75 square - I can measure one when I get home... (ps remember to leave room for a pinion brake unless you are going to shell out a G or two for a disc at the wheel kit - center of the pinion is only 3" below the top of the diff - so if you use a 10" rotor you are now pushing 13" above the axle tube)

The problem is the drive flange bolts like a cap to the end of the hub - it is also 6.5" in diam - you would have to broach a new set of drive flanges...

As for the hub wall is about 1/2" thick and has 3/8" or 7/16" (can't remember offhand) holes tapped in it for the bolts to secure the drive flange...

The spindle nuts have just enough room to run inside the hub.. the spindle itself has to be about 2 - 2.5" in diam - since they are all assembled I can't get a measurement - but for referance the holes in the edge of the spindle are countersunk 3/8" holes:

countersunk_spindles1.jpg


I think your drive flange issue is going to be the biggest blocker - even if you ran the hubs out (OEM) and shortened the axles at the tubes you will need to make a custom hub or maybe an adapter that would bolt on after the hub was installed and the drive flange afixed...

- my opinion, not that you asked - buy some new wheels and get over it :p

Matt

You can copy and paste what I said about the centersections in the PM if you like - for all to see

PS the axle boot uses a large wire clamp to hold onto a groove int he back of the hub - you would just need to copy this dimension onto your new hub...
 
Thanks Matt, great info for a Rockwell Newbie like myself. I've got some stuff to chew on now. Things I definitely dont want to do, run hubs out with adapters, shorten housing.

If I were to scrap the idea of keeping my wheels (cry) would it be worthwhile to make up some new hubs to relocate the wms further from the knuckle to allow room for wheel brakes without running the hubs out?
 
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