Hey, more D30 steering!

Ok, I've been searching and reading about steering for my D30. I like this Inverted T that was done by ZPD. As he says, simple, easy, and strong. Also, you can use the stock setup as a spare. I think it was ChuckD who said that he would have two tabs on the tie rod, though, and do double shear on the drag link heim. I dunno, I read quite a few steering threads.

Goatman wrote this in April said:

The inverted T design only works when the drag link doesn't have much of an angle. When the drag link has too much angle there will be a dead spot as the tie rod rotates, which happens before any steering takes place because the high angle causes the drag link to rotate the tie rod to the limit of the TRE's before it actually moves the knuckles. The stock Waggy steering parts, or 3/4 ton truck parts, work real well on high steer setups, but like the old Rusty's design or stock YJ steering links they won't work well on with a tall lift in the stock XJ (under knuckle) location.

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How would the tie rod rotate? Does the inverted T work well at about 6" of lift? Would something like the Goferit Flip Kit help enough to make a difference?
The inverted T seems like a better solution for a limited budget than high steer or something like that. What do you think?

it does rotate when there is a steep angle on the draglink, the tierod has the ability to rotate a little bit fore and aft, and with a steep draglink it is pushing somewhat down on the tierod instead of just straight accross it. the downward push (push when steering right, pull when steering left) will rotate the tierod, then the pull will rotate it back the other way. this creates a dead spot because the draglink (and steering wheel) is moving but not making the knuckles move, just the tierod rotate. I experienced this with the Waggy axle and steering I have.

you have 5-6 inch lift right Phil? I think with a ZJ pitman (1" drop) and raising the tierod over the knuckle your draglink would be plenty flat. The goferit kit is decent, but it would be just as cheap or cheaper to buy or borrow a reamer and taper your knuckles from the top side for larger TREs. You can use a Waggy tierod on the top, or build a new one and use Chevy TREs. Flipping the steering also gains you about 2 inches of ground clearance for your tierod, and while you're at it, make it BEEFY

as for rodend (heim) mounting, do double sheer, there is no reason not to, and it's stronger and safer, and I think easier. In single sheer like the link you provided, you would have to drill a 5/8 hole through 1 inch steel and weld it to your tierod. In double sheer you would only have to drill 2 5/8 holes through 1/4 plates and weld those on.

some other things to think about along with all this:

steering brace; get or make one if you haven't already. big tires rip steering boxes off of "frames"

steering stabilizer; you most likely won't need one, so don't waste time putting one on until you drive it and see if you need it.

trackbar; you will need to relocate one or both ends of your trackpar to make it parallel with your draglink to avoid getting massive bumpsteer.

Phil Weeks said:

Ok, I've been searching and reading about steering for my D30. I like this Inverted T that was done by ZPD. As he says, simple, easy, and strong. Also, you can use the stock setup as a spare. I think it was ChuckD who said that he would have two tabs on the tie rod, though, and do double shear on the drag link heim. I dunno, I read quite a few steering threads.
How would the tie rod rotate? Does the inverted T work well at about 6" of lift? Would something like the Goferit Flip Kit help enough to make a difference?
The inverted T seems like a better solution for a limited budget than high steer or something like that. What do you think?

Click to expand...

This is exactly what I was thining, thanks Goatman, ZPD (who lives in Modesto) said the dea spot is there only if the jam nuts get loose. Otherewise if there is one there it is just from the movement of the joints them selves.

I'm still in a toss up, between ZPD's and Unknown Scrap's (with the Hiems). I think my wife took advantage of the sale MORE is having right now. So I may be over Maximus's shop next year to do my steering arms.



Each of them have there merits and with the sale that MORE has, the price is just about equal. ZPD's is a lot less work, but the Hiem's may have less bind and less play and that's all debatable. Since the bind is truely at the pitman and only by doing a true highsteer is the only way to eliminate it.

How are you dealing with the tie rod rotation on your Waggy setup? It seems like it wouldn't be much of a problem until you got up towards freeway speeds, but at speed, the dead spot would also allow the knuckles to pivot, and give you a shimmy, at least.

I'm probably about 6 inches, I haven't measured or anything. However much the RE 5.5" is really giving, is what I have. Are you still running the inverted T on your truck? How do your angles with that compare to what I would have with 6" lift, less the 3" from the ZJ and tie rod flip?

Reaming it myself would probably be cheaper for just that part, but what about spares? I think that if I reamed it out, I would at least need to carry parts for the new linkage, but with the Goferit, I could just carry the stock stuff. Or is that not worth worrying about?

Where would the track bar relocate to? Basically right above the stock location? I've got the RE HD bar, do you know how that would fit if it was relocated?
Oh, and I guess if I relocated the end of the track bar, it would give me bumpsteer if I put the stock stuff back on, so I couldn't use that as a spare anyway.

Chuck, did ZPD relocate one end of his track bar, or is it in the stock locations?
If the dead spot only shows up when the jam nuts get loose, would it be possible to make them not get loose? Like once the alignment is dialed in and the jam nuts are tightened down, tack weld the nut to the rod, enough so it wouldn't loosen, but you could still grind through the weld and loosen it of you wanted to? Does that make sense? Would it work?

What are you running now, just stock setup?

Phil Weeks said:

How are you dealing with the tie rod rotation on your Waggy setup? It seems like it wouldn't be much of a problem until you got up towards freeway speeds, but at speed, the dead spot would also allow the knuckles to pivot, and give you a shimmy, at least.

I'm probably about 6 inches, I haven't measured or anything. However much the RE 5.5" is really giving, is what I have. Are you still running the inverted T on your truck? How do your angles with that compare to what I would have with 6" lift, less the 3" from the ZJ and tie rod flip?

Reaming it myself would probably be cheaper for just that part, but what about spares? I think that if I reamed it out, I would at least need to carry parts for the new linkage, but with the Goferit, I could just carry the stock stuff. Or is that not worth worrying about?

Where would the track bar relocate to? Basically right above the stock location? I've got the RE HD bar, do you know how that would fit if it was relocated?
Oh, and I guess if I relocated the end of the track bar, it would give me bumpsteer if I put the stock stuff back on, so I couldn't use that as a spare anyway.

Chuck, did ZPD relocate one end of his track bar, or is it in the stock locations?
If the dead spot only shows up when the jam nuts get loose, would it be possible to make them not get loose? Like once the alignment is dialed in and the jam nuts are tightened down, tack weld the nut to the rod, enough so it wouldn't loosen, but you could still grind through the weld and loosen it of you wanted to? Does that make sense? Would it work?

What are you running now, just stock setup?

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I'm running my original OEM setup. uke: I had at one time some newer links from my TJ axle, but bent them up on Ershim.

ZPD did not move his trackbar, that's one of the reasons why it's so simple aside from not having to drill out your knuckles.

As far as the jam nuts, I think a little locktite should would just fine. He says the dead spot isn't a problem, when he first notices the steering loosing up a bit, he tightens them down. You could tack weld, your toe is not going to change even if you lift your MJ higher. For the money, time and extra strength; ZPD's or a combination of is the best way to go. Otherwise do a full high steer with the WJ knuckles.

Who else is running Inverted T style? How do you think I should set it up?
ZPD's is using stock mounts on the knuckles and stock trackbar mount points, which is definitely not relocating the tie rod and track bar. What's the deal?
I'm really likeing something similar to ZPD's: simple, better than stock, not much fab stuff involved. I would like to do it right when I do make something, though.

He didn't have to move the Trackbar, because he matched draglink.

Check this link out it explains it pretty well.

http://bulletproofsteering.com/geometry.html

After having looked at the high steer problem for a while and being an engineer and machinist, the problem you guys explain about the rotation caused by the back and forth pressure from the steering arm pressures are caused by missalignment. If you look at the picture, and draw an imaginary line from the steering arm down to the tie rod joint, the line is above the joint. If you were to move the mount back a touch and make the forces act directly in line with the heim at the wheel, there would be virtually no rotational forces as long as you keep the lock nuts tight. Yes as the wheel heim rotates you will get some missalignment, but not nearly as much.

Stacking the heims on a common stud has been done. The problem is that the longer the stud the higher the forces on the stud. I've seen several bent and broken.

Ok, so if I raise the tie rod to the top of the knuckles, then I need to either shorten the drag link, or raise one end's mounting point, to match the track bar angles? But if I don't raise the tie rod, I can use the stock track bar points? That's what I got out of the link.

Old man, which picture are you referring to? How is a line drawn to the join, above the joint? I think I understand about aligning the heim and the steering arm, make them line up so it only pushes straight against the tie rod. A plane bounded by the tie rod and drag link would be vertical, right? Not leaning towards the front or rear of the vehicle as a result of the drag link angling to the tie rod.

Note the plane of the steering arm (yellow), how it is above the centerline of the lower rod end (green). Ideally it should point at the green X.



Tom Houston

The yellow line is along the axis of the bolt through the rod end? And viewing the assembly from directly along the tie rod, the yellow line should cross the green X? Am I understanding this correctly?
If I'm understanding this right:
For an inverted T, does this also apply? If I were to use TREs, along the side view of the assembly, the bolt axis should point through the middle of the TRE, even though the rod end is not directly above the TRE?

actually you want the draglink to be in plane with the trackbar, this is what is more crucial. when setting up the steering, working with the all related componants at the sametime is what creates a good system. the tierod running knuckle to knuckle is the start. next step is to setup your draglink, with keeping your trackbar setup in mind. making sure that you won't max out your rodends is critical. I really like setting up using the Tera hi-steer knuckle, this makes for an easy config, and building a hi-mount trackbar is a no brainer at that point.

Tracy

granitecrawler said:

actually you want the draglink to be in plane with the trackbar, this is what is more crucial. when setting up the steering, working with the all related componants at the sametime is what creates a good system. the tierod running knuckle to knuckle is the start. next step is to setup your draglink, with keeping your trackbar setup in mind. making sure that you won't max out your rodends is critical. I really like setting up using the Tera hi-steer knuckle, this makes for an easy config, and building a hi-mount trackbar is a no brainer at that point.

Tracy

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I'm not following "in plane", unless you just mean parallel and are trying to confuse the simple minded. To me, they could be in te same plane, but not parallel, and I thought that led to bumpsteer. I'd much rather put a tie rod flip kit on m stock knuckles, than buy the Tera knuckles. How much are they, a couple hundred dollars for just knuckles? I'd rather do a whole setup for that much.

OK, when standing on level ground, ideally the steering rod, represented by the yellow arrow should be pointing directly at the center of the swivel on the tierod end. That way steering forces are applied straight and the rotation problem that causes slop is minimized. Things will change when at flex, but then you tend to be going 0 mph and the tires are all flexed up anyway.

Surprisingly, the original style link on the XJ isn't that bad a design. It does effect toe in as you hit a bump but it isn't that noticable, especially at lower speeds and if you hit a bump big enough to cause major changes you could probably kiss your ass good bye anyway

Ok, I was way off. :doh: Now I get it. Would this also apply for something like the Inverted T link I posted at the top? If there are bends in the rod, would the yellow line be drawn from one end to the other, or is it just for the last straight section?

I'm trying to draw this back to that inverted T, which seems to be very close to the stock setup, but better. It looks to me like I'd be better off having the knuckle to knuckle tie rod, and not having the ends of the tie rod and drag link kinda skewed to start with.

It's the line of force, namely from one joint to the other joint. The idea is to get the forces acting in line with the joint. This is a simple idea but you would be surprised how many people overlook this. It's not absolutely necessary but will help.

This may sound like a stupid question, but I've got to ask it anyway. If you run a solid rod between the steering knuckles and then another solid rod up to the pitman arm what happens when the suspension compresses or extends? Does the steering wheel simply move and that's all there is to it?

Robert

Yes you get what is called bump steer. When you lift one tire, the tires point differently and either they turn or the steering wheel does. As for the steering rod, it should be parallel to the track bar or as you load and unload the suspension on the highway the vehicle will go straight.

yes you are correct in your thought. this is where having the the trackbar setup on the same angle and arc as the draglink keeps the bumpsteer away.

T.