new starter solenoid?

I pulled my starte just a few mins ago, and its really nasty

should I go ahead and get a new solenoid? since the starter is off and its gonna get a nice bath.....
If I should, wheres is the best place?
TIA!

Solenoids, don´t often go bad. Might open it up and let the water out, maybe a coat of WD-40. Wash the outside of the starter off, real good. Mark the end cap, the case and front assembly, so it goes back together like it came apart.
Open up the back end of the starter, be careful not to back the aramture out to far. Wash the whole thing out with hot water, I use a solvent sprayer, with very hot water and a mild soap solution, then rinse. And blow it out with air.
A light coat of grease on the front shaft, a dab on the reduction gears, spray everything else, but the brushes and armature, with WD-40.
What usually goes wrong on the starter, is the brushes get worn down from sand and grit. The over running clutch fails or the Bendix (might be another name for it by Jeep) gets sticky from abrasion (sand and grit), or the reduction gears get jammed with grit.
There are usually some spacers (thrust washers) on the end of the shafts, that can become lost. Getting the reduction gears back together (if they fall out) can be a pain. Putting the end cap (brushes) back on, often requires some patience and a third hand. WD-40 leaves a light coating of wax, last longer than plain oil. A light coating of grease on the threads of the case bolts, will help with disassembly next time.
A small dab of loc tite on the starter mounting bolts, might help prevent, future problems (they come loose).
Nice to have the book around, while your doing the job. I´ve done it numerous times and always have the book handy, just in case.

yeah, Sequoia told me a breif overview of how to get it off. i used a haynes too (its directions were bass ackwards :wierd: )
So that is one vote for no I guess.
FYI, i am definitely an amature at this kinda stuff, so i really dont want to fubar anything. If you can give me some more precise directions to follow to clean the whole thing that would be great. (do it on back channel)
Keep the help coming!

the directions given were pretty good.. i would use a NON-PETROLEUM degreaser like 409 or something like that.. NO carb cleaner or solvents from an aerosol can.. i'm not positive but i would assume that any protective coating on the armature and anything else inside may be harmed by solvents.. just playing it safe i suppose..
mike

ive never greased anything before, so when re-assembling, what kinda grease do I use?
Also, when cleaning, what kind of brush should i use to scrub it with? any and all help will be much appreciated. I got all day tomorrow to work on this thing.
on another note. The small wire that I had to disconnect, where does it go?
Thanks!

i had my solenoid go bad last year, replaced just the solenoid and its still going good on the same starter.

I´ve used both lithium and bearing grease. Light on the grease, it could cause problems if it migrates back to the brushes and armature. Most times it´s not recommended to grease, bronze bushings (but I do). Excess grease also picks up grit. The reduction gears and front shaft/and gear, need a little grease. The small solenoid wire, I believe goes up to the starter relay "S" pin (if I´m wrong please somebody correct me).
I usually put a board (covered with a cloth) across two saw horses (or a clean work bench/hard to find around here) for disassembly and assembly. I have a solvent/parts sprayer (filled with mild soap/strong soap makes a lot of bubbles :wierd: ) that hooks up to compressed air. Dish washing soap, 409 or simple green works on most of the mud. You may have to spray the reduction gears off with a solvent, like brake cleaner (if grit is stuck in the factory grease). But like mentioned, spraying the windings with solvent could cause problems. Check the ends of the shafts for thrust washers, before carrying around or washing the starter (someimes the stay in the bushing, sometimes they stick to the shaft).
When the wife isn´t looking :rattle: , I´ve used the bath tub and the shower, to clean out my starters. I don´t use a brush on the insides, skinning the coating from the windings, could cause a short.
I usually carry an extra, rebuilt/serviceable, junk yard starter with me, on mud runs.
It doesn´t have to shine, the object is to remove most of the grit and mud. You´ll probably be doing it again soon anyway.
I´ve seen the plunger in the solenoid full of water and rust, nothing a cleaning won´t cure. A simple continuity test to ground should tell you if the coil is open (though I´ve never seen it). You can test it with power on the workbench (don´t melt the threads). Possible for the contacts in the back of the solenoid to burn and pit (but I have 15 year old starters that are still using the same solenoid). But heck any part can fail, solenoid wouldn´t be my first choice, when troubleshooting.

well, i guess ill give it a shot tomorrow. I got a nice utility tub to soak it in. About how long should i let it all soak in the 409 mix?
ok, now lets get to the what if.... what if, i do mess something up. will it hurt anything else or just the starter? If it only hurts the starter, i dont care, ill go pick up another one.

Brake cleaner is a good safe solvent..and it will not damage the parts..a cheap parts cleaner brush from the auto parts store is good to use...scrape as much gook off with a tool as possible before you use the solvent. Use moly or white lithium grease for lube...the hard part is determining if the parts are worn or not...the difference can be subtle, expecially with the bushing clearance...the starter drive (bendix) clutch should offer some resistance to turning (hard to explain, easy to demonstrate). If you don't have a lenght spec on the brushes, or don't have a new set to compare them with, it's hard to tell how worn they are..

As far as the solenoid goes, a new one is a great idea...Don't take any offense, but I recommend that you take the starter to a local auto electric shop for check-out..if you need parts/repairs the only real difference will be in the labor compared to you buying the parts yourself....and best of all you will have a warranty.

MudDawg said:

As far as the solenoid goes, a new one is a great idea...Don't take any offense, but I recommend that you take the starter to a local auto electric shop for check-out..if you need parts/repairs the only real difference will be in the labor compared to you buying the parts yourself....and best of all you will have a warranty.

Click to expand...

I would do that, but for a 13 year old starter, and the insane prices the rebuild places around here charge....its not an option. Stores like that are far in between here and they charge almost what i can get new. PLUS, i gotta learn somehow :repair:

:laugh3: I wouldn´t soak it, the object is to get the mud out and get it dry as fast as possible. Water getting inside the over running clutch, sure can´t be helpfull. Hot water, evaporates quickly, even quicker with a little air (use the blow side of the vacume cleaner).
Muddy water in with the brushes, grit in the bendix, will wear out your starter pretty quick. Same with the alternator. Most everytime I really soak mine, I clean them out good. I´ve got 14 year old starters that still work. A rebuild every couple of years (or months with sand) can get expensive.
I also clean every seal/bearing, shaft, and brake parts (in the drums), in the Jeep with a high pressure cleaner, after a serious mud run. Sure saves a lot of wrenching and parts in the long run.

ok, so no soaking then. Then should i like mix the 409 and really hot water in a bowl or something while scrubing the outside?

1. scrape off everything i can.
2. scrub off the rest with cleaner
3. open up carefully
then what? rinse with hot water and recoat with a little grease and WD-40?
reasemble and reinstall?

also, like i said before. if something goes wrong, will it only hurt the starter? and not chain react and mess other stuff up?
Thanks

At thirteen years, it might be time for a new set of brushes. I found a set at a local Mitsubishi/Honda dealer, for about half the price of the Mopar replacement. Still kicking myself in the rear, for not keeping the package with the part number. The whole brush assembly cost me about $18, probably half that, for just the brushes alone.

Can´t really see, how it would mess anything else up. Unhook the battery before messing with the wires.
The only things that can really go wrong, are forgetting to mark the case good, so the three pieces go back together like they came apart.
Loosing the thrust washers off of the end of the shaft.
I´ve not had the long bolts, holding mine together seize. but tap the heads with a punch and hammer, before, trying to force them too much. They are pretty thin.
If you run into trouble, I have one in pieces on the workbench now. I used three to make two. I can walk out and look how it goes together. Not real complicated.

Hey it's all good I just didn't want to see you spend a lot of time and money and possibly have the job go bad.

On the chain reaction thing....it's possible but not likely...if you get a dead short in the starter and the solenoid contacts weld together, you could burn up the starter cable (and anything else that is in contact with it) and possibly send your battery to the moon. A good battery can deliver over 1000 amps on a dead short...(just a little info from Delco school) I changed careers from being a line mechanic in '87, but it all still works the same.

Steve



Soon to be a member as soon as my membership gets processed

I always test them out on the workbench, before I put them back in the Jeep. Just be careful not to arch the cables and damage the threads (leave the nuts on, if you use jumper cables). Positive battery cable to the big nut on the back of the starter. Starter case to to the negetive/ground, then jump a small wire (from the positive/big nut on the back of the solenoid) to the small connection on the back of the solenoid. Have somebody hold the starter down or put it in a vice, it will jump a bit. I dont really think it´s gonny happen, but if it smokes, have somebody standing by, to pull the ground off of the battery, quick.
Before I forget, it´s easier to leave the armature winding (the inside part that rotates) in the front of the case (hold a little pressure pushing it forward). Just pull off the back end cap and the black outer case´(might have to pry a little). You can´t get the amature winding out, without removeing the solenoid anyway, but you can slide it back far enough, so the reduction gears fall off. Not necessary to take it apart to the last peice. If the reduction gears fall off, not really a big deal, just keep track of the pieces.
If you do much off roading, it´s probably good, to learn a little about the starter, in the garage, before you have to do it in the middle of the night, in a rain storm someday. Automatics are kind hard to get started, without a starter.

Suweet. Thanks guys. Im gonna go give it all a shot once daylight comes out and it warms up a bit (35-40 deg outside right now ).

P.S. - LOOK WHOS A now. woot woot (MudDawg, do you feel oh so pretty like me now since we fit in. LOL!)

ok, i got most of the outer case cleaned up, but when i tried to remove the two screws that hold the solenoid on, they both got stripped (phillips type).
Now what?? I even let em soak in PB blaster all night to try and break any bonds, but that apparently didnt help.

Those screws are hardened, hard to strip, the heads. Chances are you rounded off your screw driver some. They have a set of different type philip head, screw driver bits, for for ratchets or electric drill. They come in various sizes and types. All philips arn´t the same, metric philips and American philips are a little different, besides having a slightly different size, they have a different pitch. Have to find, a phillips head that fits the screw exactly. Try tapping the screw a little from the side with a small hammer and chisel (don´t ding it too much). Try putting a phillips bit in the head and and tapping it sharply, downwords, with a small hammer. A hammer ratchet (Impact driver), is a handy gadget, and often comes with a selection of philips type bits, often metric norm, fairly cheap. Korean are cheap and they make pretty good steel.
Next question, did you test the solenoid for function? Put the screw on the nut, use a set of jumper cables, positive to the small stud (with nut), negative to the case. Does the solenoid pop and move the gear forward, in the starter? Don´t leave it actuated for more than, say 15-20 seconds or it might overheat.
Imact Driver, is a usefull tool, often the only way to get a steel screw or bolt to turn in aluminum.

i havent tried for function yet, but it was working perfectly fine before i removed the starter..... Ive tried 7 different phillips bits......