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jeeperguy21
October 19th, 2017, 20:51
I am about to dive into the process of rotating the axle C's to get a better caster angle. Prior to making any adjustments, I measured the current angle on both the driver and passenger sides and am getting different measurements. The passenger side shows 1.1 degrees and the driver side shows 2.3 degrees, shown in the links below:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/0ldsdayjsd4mr0j/2017-10-18%2020.27.50.jpg?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/3cyuq4oxwpb1mcx/2017-10-18%2020.27.04.jpg?dl=0

Couple of questions:
1) Am I measuring this correctly?
2) Should I try adjusting the control arms to have the caster match on both sides before I start grinding away?

Tim_MN
October 20th, 2017, 07:38
Are you measuring from a raw casting surface, or from a machined surface ? I would be rough measuring caster from the top of the ball joint, or better yet, with the outer C and ball joint removed, measure from the flat machined surface at the ball joint opening. Some variation in caster is certainly possible.

I would be setting the caster angle in only relation to the axle housing, and not in relation to the control arms or the Jeep.

If you are using short control arms, minor caster adjustments can be made with caster shims on the frame side of the control arm.

jeeperguy21
October 20th, 2017, 07:56
I was measuring from the surface right next to the top of the lower ball joint. As I was trying to figure out the best place to measure the caster, I also got a measurement from on top of the top ball joint, which had the passenger caster at 1.8 degrees. I don't recall what it was on the driver side as I didn't snap a pic. Here's a pic of the passenger side:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/cpodda8913kuoj9/2017-10-18%2020.23.49.jpg?dl=0

Since some variation in caster is possible, should I make it the same on both sides before I adjust it, or just proceed and make them the same afterwards? I have long control arms that are easily adjustable. I would just need to decide if I should make the top shorter or the bottom longer on one side during the adjustment.

Tim_MN
October 20th, 2017, 09:05
Since you are going to change the caster, the current measured caster numbers, nor any side to side variance, do not matter, they are only used as a reference. Measure, or assume that the frame side mounts are equal distance from the axle, then make sure the adjustable control arms are close to each other in length, and get to work.

Rotate the C's in relation to the axle housing.

jeeperguy21
October 20th, 2017, 09:12
Sounds good. I plan on rotating both sides so that they are at 8 degrees. I'll make sure the arms are the same length on both sides and then go for it.

Not looking forward to this project, but I'm looking forward to the end result.

jeeperguy21
November 22nd, 2017, 08:46
I started grinding away on the welds holding the axle C's on the driver's side. I must not have enough of the weld ground away because I can't get it to rotate with a BFH. I don't want to grind too much into the axle tube, so I'm looking for a second opinion on where I need to focus my grinding efforts. Here are some pics:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/3ig0sl5qz4ylb3s/2017-11-18%2018.56.40.jpg?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ue6egaz7ysahcgz/2017-11-18%2018.53.34.jpg?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/b0426lvs50uq130/2017-11-18%2018.53.47.jpg?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/xae8xyomoeor8n6/2017-11-18%2018.55.39.jpg?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/qoxy4hhzys3t1nt/2017-11-18%2018.55.55.jpg?dl=0

XJEEPER
December 4th, 2017, 14:27
I PMed you the link to my knuckle rotation thread, but I'll share it here as well. Too bad Photobucket killed my picture links, but there are good descriptions of each step, which should help.

http://www.naxja.org/forum/showthread.php?t=935127&highlight=knuckle+rotation&page=4

jeeperguy21
December 4th, 2017, 15:15
I PMed you the link to my knuckle rotation thread, but I'll share it here as well. Too bad Photobucket killed my picture links, but there are good descriptions of each step, which should help.

http://www.naxja.org/forum/showthread.php?t=935127&highlight=knuckle+rotation&page=4

I read the thread in great detail prior to reaching out to you. I was able to see the pics using a Chrome extension that makes them visible. I'm hoping for some advice one where I currently stand. In my opinion, I think I've ground sufficiently, but the C's won't budge. I'm putting quite the mark on them as I've pounded them with a sledge.

I'm wondering if you can see anything obvious in the pics to point me in the right direction. Is it more grinding into the axle tube that I need to do, try to focus my efforts onto the C's themselves, or something else? The last thing I want to do is to grind a hole into the tube by attacking this the wrong way.

donthelegend
December 4th, 2017, 21:31
Did you cut fairly deeply into the inner C or stay farther out (so you were grinding more of the weld rather than the metal of the inner C)? I see a couple spots that look kinda like the end of the weld but it's hard to tell. The best way I can describe it is that it looks like a small "tear" at the transition point. I'm going to try to mark up a couple of your pics and I'll post them in a minute.

Edit:
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/tlVuUIyxezwES0dlCfeP8tjg9E_-4SCa8l_9HlRcFTnVcTk2gzz8OzMp6iXk6VGsXDL_YQgvCeBWRM R4QXJ9NDleUg3of99s-tbrR4YS-oPkqalvSLsmwtZHEj58czrrm0LVDsrLDCpeIkzA0zvGo6sCQ8p ZymoFmFxHKdkSKDzC56mhMn15ceX5F9NnmV1GOdbM_sfJz67VP ftWn6U6t39w7iFHJuOWFO0qP1tjw4_jAfVzU8V9Dl7KQYZeNl4 _oDrUNn66kzaRN_5lqyJxq_umaHxPNz16pHF37ITBVJmlChLMF TVUdqFw-p5NOxUTppXLUqM5XfKfbPn5qdK95SPilWQktN5Funha-KkdSbzt2xYb7wyGibpJS1sZ7gAulyhcVTUx9-KQKuyx9yXDY_f3rTGy0GiIjIOujh9e7zoie3Dbqcq8JVYxCzt7 mAigVLeJrh-i60B_bHw_P53PjjZvs1RZeSD42bNCPeGQsFM5xff39KRw7jWpb VJ2pXwWJ8HabIClZ1W1foCq_YID08CLNF5yOKhGyu02ig1JY81 yNae6HNI5-k-mK3kpkSa4A63svH1-CCxynismg8nU-turCsL16ScQNdtmAQFJjw=w688-h917-no

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/yFdFqHSZf1wKoQKb5z_Z0dv0YVu4culS6HGiAz2y1h-mz0CQFLMw5SYjE7tXVY8EaOnzNZOX8HAbXXah9Z1XWAK6nOGh4 0VyNzS9pz5pvLcnxcxzsj1YU4HcFFS8UlWMX7MLlRwiBD5jYY0 aho4c4dOVz_qtk0gtYaUZvhzpLaez1iU0b37GiFcLO2SNFt2Ya 1mrxE53-UbCXcO27dRFfc57T5pUN4F_9u863wyPqCLXmzUDuowrSYWdHhf 9p3T4EY7v5vOVKCPIOU1-DAJiRIVm4gSYMtAhoDWfK1R6An0sJ0KgdmgYZCT6Glq5hYUHrq LFlrRzH3Qz0Gf-sfuQWBkj9Ua6SGmAgMiptg1h70fJdYr-rL5btGTmXi1g3f8QPj90YIf4yAxvcHVMZ3jebRPaPdb4mwItKp cSQ-TDUOPKWisLUi58gzWz1ybkJG6pgw1eU_jmlLl22xVP7Wc_b4RR qD4kgZ2zmIj6l16PKalhng0DGVnj7veXWWNO8zzO6J7g3wGBOu rD3hP7oo3vKptXrp_EdXjxE9n_qzl0yJ9i6NsY4CGlX4BHWNjp A3Hm9vPWsrl5X4MBWHn5_kIT3XqcyLVoMtvJ7ta9aS6LZg=w68 8-h917-no

XJEEPER
December 5th, 2017, 09:16
I read the thread in great detail prior to reaching out to you. I was able to see the pics using a Chrome extension that makes them visible. I'm hoping for some advice one where I currently stand. In my opinion, I think I've ground sufficiently, but the C's won't budge. I'm putting quite the mark on them as I've pounded them with a sledge.

I'm wondering if you can see anything obvious in the pics to point me in the right direction. Is it more grinding into the axle tube that I need to do, try to focus my efforts onto the C's themselves, or something else? The last thing I want to do is to grind a hole into the tube by attacking this the wrong way.

It's difficult to tell from your images, if you have removed enough of the weld/knuckle to allow the knuckle to rotate freely on the tube, but suffice to say that if the knuckle is not rotating with the application of force from your hammer, then you need to remove more material.

It appears to me from the image 18.55.39, that you haven't sliced into the lower-rear section of the knuckle enough to cut through the weld.

I recall shaving about 1/8"+ from the inner knuckle surface, in order to get behind the factory weld. This required several cutoff discs and a right-angle die grinder to accomplish.

http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w52/XJEEPER1/XJ%20Build%20III/100_2964.jpg

A small section of weld will prevent the entire knuckle from rotating.

jeeperguy21
December 5th, 2017, 09:42
Thanks for looking at the pics, guys. I now think that I attacked the weld much more so than the inner C. I don't believe I really got into the inner C much, which is likely what is causing my inability to free it from the axle tube.

Next time I have a chance to grind, I will focus most, if not all of my efforts on shaving down the inner C to try and free it up. I'll let you know what the outcome is.

jeeperguy21
January 29th, 2018, 15:02
I am pleased to report that I was able to get my axle C's to rotate after grinding further into the C's. I've got them rotated to 8 degrees, which will be a night and day difference compared to them being a 1 degree previously.

I need to replace my ball joints as at least one of them is confirmed to be bad on the passenger side. It seemed to fail while I was trying to remove the knuckle. You can see a lovely clip of what this failure looks like here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7uAYoaAYtU

I need the help of someone to weld these puppies back into place. I have 3 neighbors that weld, but I don't fully know their level of competency. I have considered hiring someone on the local online classifieds, but haven't pulled the trigger on that yet. Any local volunteers? I will pay handsomely with a free meal, internet points, or cash. I have a 240V outlet in my garage. Needing someone that is mobile and can come to me.

I took two vastly different approaches to the driver and passenger side. I did the driver side first and thought it would be best to completely grind off the original weld. This means that this side will need to be built back up to the thickness of the original weld: https://www.dropbox.com/s/7tcalcup5ua2qk0/2018-01-13%2021.49.46.jpg?dl=0

I wised up after the first side and used only a cutoff wheel and sawzall on the passenger side which left most of the original weld in place, but I don't know if the space is wide enough to get a good weld in place: https://www.dropbox.com/s/oycj9kakdctwltg/2018-01-13%2021.48.56.jpg?dl=0

I want to make this as easy as possible for whoever I end up getting to do this. Thoughts?

Also, if anyone has a recent opinion of ball joints, feel free to share. It seems like the common theme I'm finding is that Moog joints aren't what they used to be, Spicer is a safe bet, and other brands are hit and miss.

jeeperguy21
January 31st, 2018, 15:48
Bump:

TLDR: Looking for a local to weld my rotated axle C's into place.

Also wondering what the latest opinions are on ball joints. Need to replace my Moog joints, but don't know if Moog is still a solid option.

David_Bricker
January 31st, 2018, 18:28
Word on the street is to stick with Spicer.

A million years ago, when I was in welding class (I'm no welder), when welding heavy stuff, the rule of thumb was to grind a "V" such that about 1/2 the thickness was ground away. This was so you get get full penetration to to opposite side of the material. From your description, you likely will need to grind some "V" in the work. A weld has no strength on any part of it that doesn't penetrate completely through.

David Bricker / SYR - YYZ

chasdb
January 31st, 2018, 21:57
Grind the passenger side weld down to the tube. Pull the axle out completely so the knuckle can be welded flat when the axle is positioned vertically and cooled, then flipped and the other knuckle done.

XJEEPER
February 1st, 2018, 10:50
I am pleased to report that I was able to get my axle C's to rotate after grinding further into the C's. I've got them rotated to 8 degrees, which will be a night and day difference compared to them being a 1 degree previously.

I need to replace my ball joints as at least one of them is confirmed to be bad on the passenger side. It seemed to fail while I was trying to remove the knuckle. You can see a lovely clip of what this failure looks like here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7uAYoaAYtU

I need the help of someone to weld these puppies back into place. I have 3 neighbors that weld, but I don't fully know their level of competency. I have considered hiring someone on the local online classifieds, but haven't pulled the trigger on that yet. Any local volunteers? I will pay handsomely with a free meal, internet points, or cash. I have a 240V outlet in my garage. Needing someone that is mobile and can come to me.

I took two vastly different approaches to the driver and passenger side. I did the driver side first and thought it would be best to completely grind off the original weld. This means that this side will need to be built back up to the thickness of the original weld: https://www.dropbox.com/s/7tcalcup5ua2qk0/2018-01-13%2021.49.46.jpg?dl=0

I wised up after the first side and used only a cutoff wheel and sawzall on the passenger side which left most of the original weld in place, but I don't know if the space is wide enough to get a good weld in place: https://www.dropbox.com/s/oycj9kakdctwltg/2018-01-13%2021.48.56.jpg?dl=0

I want to make this as easy as possible for whoever I end up getting to do this. Thoughts?

Also, if anyone has a recent opinion of ball joints, feel free to share. It seems like the common theme I'm finding is that Moog joints aren't what they used to be, Spicer is a safe bet, and other brands are hit and miss.

I'm located in So Ogden and could be persuaded to pay a house call with my welder, to melt your knuckles back on. PM me and we can discuss the details.

Looking at the Passenger side image, I would want the old weld ground down more so that there is more surface area to weld to, as I would plan on making a double pass.

burntkat
February 1st, 2018, 13:16
Are you measuring from a raw casting surface, or from a machined surface ? I would be rough measuring caster from the top of the ball joint, or better yet, with the outer C and ball joint removed, measure from the flat machined surface at the ball joint opening. Some variation in caster is certainly possible.

Concur, and also, is he measuring with the axle still in a vehicle, on a surface that is not level? Granted, all level measurements are done to the local gravity well, but if the axle is evenly mildly twisted up, this can give you junk data. I'd at least take the measurements on a hard flat surface (driveway is close enough for government work, unless it's uphill like mine). Even then, you're looking at a ballpark measurement. I wouldn't sweat accurate measurements till you have it out of the vehicle and on stands. What you want to measure before removing it, is how you need to adjust your pinion. Assuming you're running a DC front shaft (DC at the T-case), you want to point the pinion right at it. Figure out what the pinion needs to do (degrees up/down,and how many from level) to get there, and write it down.

Rip the axle out. But it on stands. Level itside/side, and fore/aft. Tear it down to parade rest, and take a grinder to those C welds. When you have a fine line visible where weld was, take a steel hammer to them till you break them loose. Now set your pinion angle where you want it. Check, check, triplecheck, and check again that the axle is still level side/side, fore/aft. Figure a way to hold it in place (I think a chain vise would work here, this is what I'm trying to figure out without building special fixturing I don't have room for). Now give the C's a few lovetaps till they are fully engaged with the tube, and around 6 degrees positive caster (ie, top inclined back toward the pinion). Tack each lightly in place , and recheck your work. Tack heavily, and check again. When happy, burn them in.

While this is probably pedantic and overly cautious, I'll be burning mine in in sections about 1" long at a time, then going to the other side to weld on it, then allowing them to cool before continuing. This will take quite some time. DO NOT *ever* quench the weld to cool it off so you can work faster.

This will take hours, of course. I have time to make sure I end up with a good product. I am not doing this for a job, I don't have a supervisor breathing down my back to hurry.

Definitely a shadetree approach to the problem, but it's worked for me so far (see below.. ;) . It took me about 3 hours to do the welds on my highsteer tierod and draglink. Knock wood, but I've had no problems.

burntkat
February 1st, 2018, 13:18
Sounds good. I plan on rotating both sides so that they are at 8 degrees. I'll make sure the arms are the same length on both sides and then go for it.

Not looking forward to this project, but I'm looking forward to the end result.

I would reconsider going to 8 degrees. 6 should be plenty. It sounds like very little difference, but it's huge.

burntkat
February 1st, 2018, 13:19
I need the help of someone to weld these puppies back into place. I have 3 neighbors that weld, but I don't fully know their level of competency. I have considered hiring someone on the local online classifieds, but haven't pulled the trigger on that yet. Any local volunteers? I will pay handsomely with a free meal, internet points, or cash. I have a 240V outlet in my garage. Needing someone that is mobile and can come to me.


Why on earth are you welding on the balljoints?!? No need, bad juju! They are a press fit.

EDIT: nevermind, context clues... I am reasonably sure you are referring to the Cs now. Carry on. :)

burntkat
February 1st, 2018, 13:22
Bump:

TLDR: Looking for a local to weld my rotated axle C's into place.

Also wondering what the latest opinions are on ball joints. Need to replace my Moog joints, but don't know if Moog is still a solid option.

Just installed Moog units in my son's 97. It's clearewd up the DW we were chasing, even with the alignment being "close enough for government work" till I can get him out there with me.

burntkat
February 1st, 2018, 13:23
Grind the passenger side weld down to the tube. Pull the axle out completely so the knuckle can be welded flat when the axle is positioned vertically and cooled, then flipped and the other knuckle done.

I'm not following this idea. Why does presence of the axle matter with weld positioning?

jeeperguy21
March 8th, 2018, 14:18
Much progress has been made in the last few weeks. I did a bunch more grinding to prep the axle C's to be welded. XJEEPER also recommended that I get some inner C gussets to help reinforce everything in that area, which meant more grinding to prep for welding. Here is what it looked like after grinding down the original welds even more to get a nice, clean starting point:

https://i.imgur.com/1ZFtfjKl.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/a7pdmY9l.jpg

I picked up a set of inner C gussets from Artec Industries, which happens to be a local company, which was convenient. http://www.artecindustries.com/Inner_C_Gussets

XJEEPER came over a couple of Saturdays ago and as we were getting him set to burn everything together, we discovered that the electrician that wired my garage had put a four pronged dryer outlet in my garage instead of a 3 pronged outlet for a welder. After I picked up the right outlet at Lowe's and wired it in place, we were in business.

If it weren't for the gussets, this would have been a relatively quick job, but it ended up taking much of the day. Here are some pics of how it all came together:
https://i.imgur.com/t8O15zel.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/oXSHRFUl.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/zFllYYIl.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/TMsIpqMl.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/qGkzFvGl.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/698MCTzl.jpg

I have started painting everything and will then put everything back together. I realized that I ordered the wrong Spicer ball joints, so until the correct ones arrive, this thing isn't going anywhere. I'm excited to get it on the road in the new few weeks to see the improvement in how it goes down the road.

jeeperguy21
June 18th, 2018, 14:39
I forgot to update where this thing stands now. After I got everything put back together and on the road, I discovered something that I failed to take into account: by rotating the inner C's, it brought the drag link closer to the axle, resulting in the drag link hitting the stock sway bar axle mount when turning sharply to the driver's side.

After that discovery, I haven't made any additional changes as I haven't had to use the Jeep for anything serious. I'm currently considering raising the sway bar axle mount location using weldable relocation brackets (https://www.morris4x4center.com/synergy-manufacturing-sway-bar-relocation-bracket-weld-on-ssm-8235-03.html), but haven't decided if this is the best path forward. Any suggestions are welcome.

cal
June 18th, 2018, 16:39
Sounds like time to WJ convert it.

XJEEPER
June 19th, 2018, 08:03
While I'm a huge fan of the WJ knuckle conversion, if you don't want to take that leap, then swaybar endlink relocation brackets will resolve your clearance issues.

Now that you have knuckle gussets in place, you also have more swaybar endlink mounting options......
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w52/XJEEPER1/XJ%20Build%20III/100_3457.jpg

burntkat
June 20th, 2018, 07:11
How much are we talking to pull off the WJ conversion, and does it require different wheels?

cal
June 20th, 2018, 07:23
Depends on what wheels you have. Most 15" alloy wheels won't fit over the brakes, some 15" steel wheels will. All 16's and 17's are fine.

Depending on how much you scavenge, re-use, quality of parts, etc the WJ swap will cost between $400 and $2000.

SFR sells a 'fab parts' kit and a 'complete' kit, read the instructions and it will give you an idea whats involved.

http://www.stinkyfab.com/jeep-high-steer-big-brake-kit/


You get better brakes, better steering, and with the relocated trackbar better road and trail manners. Its 100% worth the time and money and then some.

RCP Phx
June 20th, 2018, 09:02
How much are we talking to pull off the WJ conversion, and does it require different wheels?

The only difficult thing is finding some knuckles. I purchased some new ones from Crown that were machined incorrectly so I returned them a went to the P-n-P. I was able to buy the rest new.
http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww220/apayne82/2000%20Jeep%20Cherokee/P1080478_zpsubtwxyv0.jpg

burntkat
June 20th, 2018, 16:49
Depends on what wheels you have. Most 15" alloy wheels won't fit over the brakes, some 15" steel wheels will. All 16's and 17's are fine.

Depending on how much you scavenge, re-use, quality of parts, etc the WJ swap will cost between $400 and $2000.

SFR sells a 'fab parts' kit and a 'complete' kit, read the instructions and it will give you an idea whats involved.

http://www.stinkyfab.com/jeep-high-steer-big-brake-kit/


You get better brakes, better steering, and with the relocated trackbar better road and trail manners. Its 100% worth the time and money and then some.
Before I put that kind of money into polishing a turd, I'll just install D44s. It was a long shot.

burntkat
June 20th, 2018, 16:50
Is that a different bolt pattern? I see two patterns on the foreground rotor.

cal
June 20th, 2018, 16:52
Before I put that kind of money into polishing a turd, I'll just install D44s. It was a long shot.

I WJ converted my 44, for what its worth.

Was totally worth it, would do again.

cal
June 20th, 2018, 16:53
Is that a different bolt pattern? I see two patterns on the foreground rotor.

WJ's are 5x5 like a JK, and use the same balljoint as a JK. Oddly, a different unit bearing.

You dual drill the rotor to 5x4.5 for an XJ.

There are some formulas using Explorer rotors that don't require that, but they have other hacks to make them work that are really sketchy.

sinat01
June 20th, 2018, 17:03
might be me overthinking things as usual, but has anyone ever had the rotor crack from redrilling it?

cal
June 20th, 2018, 17:05
I've never heard of one, and its really doubtful. The holes in the rotor are irrelevant once the wheel is bolted down, they are just there to hold it in place for assembly.

The hat being sandwiched between the bearing and wheel is what holds it. I redrill my rotors with a 3/4" hole and use the hat of the unit bearing to center it.

burntkat
June 20th, 2018, 19:35
I didn't realize you had folks doing this to a 44. I have to ask, why on earth? Whybput a unit bearing on a 44? If i wanted unit bearings on a 44,I'd just buy a TJ Rubicon with its wannabe 44

cal
June 20th, 2018, 20:12
Unit bearings are stronger than 44 bearings and a spindle.

27 or 30 spline unit bearing stubs are stronger than 19 spline hub stubs.

hubs... not strong.

WJ brakes are better than dana 44 half ton stuff.

Crossover steering can be attained either way, but the cost of machining knuckles and buying high steer arms mostly pays for the WJ stuff.

RCP Phx
June 20th, 2018, 20:41
That's because WJ's are 5x5 bolt pattern.