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Fosters
September 22nd, 2017, 22:13
Here's my situation. My XJ is kind of a toy, but I want it to do a bit more than that - I like camping and while I have a giant toy hauler and a dually, I want to be able to camp where most normal people can't get to...

So the goal is to have my XJ (01, 3" lift, 31s, soon to have an 8.8 swapped in, and in process of getting a non-cracked head put on) become a weekend camper puller.

I live in Phoenix AZ and for me to go camping anywhere I go to get out of the heat I have to go "up". N/A engines suck at high altitude - before the diesel dually I had a V10 and while it was awesome at low altitude, at 10k ft with a tiny 5000 lbs camper behind it it was 2nd gear 5000 rpm everywhere... So my idea with the cherokee looking at this thing was - if it is gonna pull a small 12-14ft 2000lb camper, it should have some assisted breathing.

Due to Jeep putting both intake and exhaust on the same side, it's really hard to fit something in the engine bay... I've studied the remote mount turbo kits a bit and I think they'll do what I'm after fairly well. Low boost ( <5psi), spool at under 2k rpm (aka a really tiny turbo), just to keep up at high altitudes... This would also eliminate the problem with underhood temps from stuffing a turbo in the engine bay eliminate the need to run an intercooler somewhat - since I'd have 10+ ft of pipe exposed to all of the air under the heep, and should in theory at least help with power a bit...

Now the questions that I couldn't find the answer to after searching... I'm also thinking of beefing up the bottom end as a first mod; gonna build a stroker, obviously gonna go with one of the low compression kits from Titan; at 8.8 CR. My question is how is that gonna play with a little bit of boost? I know there are a few strokers out there and these things need 91 just to run 9.5+ compression... I'm a little worried about the compression in this motor - too low to spool up the turbo in time, too high to run on pump gas reliably.. Anyone try a turbo stroker - and not in an all out balls to the wall application?

Last but not least, what are some of the injector options and how much is the stock fuel pump good for as far as power/injector size? If the stock jeep makes 135hp at the wheels, I'd be happy with 200 after the stroker/turbo... and 300 torks. Will the stock fuel pump (and why the hell is there no fuel filter on 2001s? dammit chrysler...) keep up?

I'm no stranger to boost - I have a 6.7 powerstroke, a 2.7 ecoboost f150 daily, and a paxton coyote mustang that needs 2 sets of tires per oil change...

If only we had diesel jeeps like in Europe (every one of those a-holes had a CRD badge on their jeep, I swear)... :D

RCP Phx
September 22nd, 2017, 22:30
I've never had a power issue at altitude and I've wheel around at 14,000ft! Also now with my stroker @ 9.4 CR, I use 87 octane. My dyno run netted @ 325hp/400 ft/lbs torque, I don't know how much more you could ask for?

Fosters
September 22nd, 2017, 23:07
That's at the wheels? or crank? And which stroker kit did you go with?

I'm a bit worried about the towing part - towing at high altitude with anything N/A seems to be an exercise in futility... :)

RCP Phx
September 22nd, 2017, 23:31
That was on a rolling dyno, so measured at the wheel. I didn't buy a kit, but it was conceived via Russ Pottenger(Bishop/Beuhl). My trailer weighs almost 3600# wet so I've dealt with towing before and only stopping was ever a issue!
http://naxja.org/forum/showthread.php?t=1140839

blakews2217
September 23rd, 2017, 03:57
That was on a rolling dyno, so measured at the wheel. I didn't buy a kit, but it was conceived via Russ Pottenger(Bishop/Beuhl). My trailer weighs almost 3600# wet so I've dealt with towing before and only stopping was ever a issue!

http://naxja.org/forum/showthread.php?t=1140839



I agree. After a 4.7 stroker running about a 9.0 CR I made 190 hp and 250 tq, the only issue of towing is stopping. I had a 98 zj with the 360. Pulled 8500 with it. Talk about a struggle. Lost all breaks once goin down a hill. After a close scrape with god at about 117 I use trailer breaks with that much weight now. But I never had an issue moving it ( till I got the trans super hot and baked a solenoid. ). It's all in preference on how fast you wanna go.


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Green XJ Jeep
September 23rd, 2017, 06:28
A roots supercharger setup would work better for what you are asking. Its a shame there isnt a paxton/procharger setup for 4.0's

trippled
September 23rd, 2017, 07:56
A roots supercharger setup would work better for what you are asking. Its a shame there isnt a paxton/procharger setup for 4.0's

I hate the centrifugal supper chargers. It's always nothing nothing nothing then sudden boost. Turbo is a little more gradual and a roots type is pretty linear. I would say 5 lbs of boost would be no problem. Here at 7k ft, we're 3lbs low atmosphere, so 5 would put you just over sea level. There's always something like the banks kit for the tjs that mounted the turbo on the passenger side of the engine compartment, if that's an option.

RCP Phx
September 23rd, 2017, 08:13
The real issue is money, your going to have to build a good motor($$$$) and then spend that much again on any "forced air" product !

yossarian19
September 23rd, 2017, 09:26
Talk to Russ Pottenger. Build a stroker that will handle some boost and start there.
If you still don't like it, a remote mount turbo won't require any more work to do later than it would have at the start.

Fosters
September 23rd, 2017, 12:23
Talk to Russ Pottenger. Build a stroker that will handle some boost and start there.
If you still don't like it, a remote mount turbo won't require any more work to do later than it would have at the start.

My thoughts exactly. The 8.8 axle is almost ready to go in and that will help with the braking part - going from drums to disc - though the trailer will have its own brakes as well.

RCP, I saw your thread, I'm sorry, your dyno sheets make no sense. Why on earth they would go through the gears is beyond me. Dyno plots should be HP and Torque curve overlayed on the Y axis, and rpms on the x axis.

Something like this: https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t35.0-12/13388994_10154253849489826_1709800397_o.png?oh=87e 02d6d63797ba38c14b16e99fbe07a&oe=59C94986

Boostwerks.com
September 23rd, 2017, 13:56
I've never had a power issue at altitude and I've wheel around at 14,000ft! Also now with my stroker @ 9.4 CR, I use 87 octane. My dyno run netted @ 325hp/400 ft/lbs torque, I don't know how much more you could ask for?

I still think you need to dyno it somewhere else and get a full 3rd gear pull. Just my 2 cents. :dunce:

Green XJ Jeep
September 23rd, 2017, 18:19
I hate the centrifugal supper chargers. It's always nothing nothing nothing then sudden boost. Turbo is a little more gradual and a roots type is pretty linear. I would say 5 lbs of boost would be no problem. Here at 7k ft, we're 3lbs low atmosphere, so 5 would put you just over sea level. There's always something like the banks kit for the tjs that mounted the turbo on the passenger side of the engine compartment, if that's an option.

Which is why I suggest a roots blower. 5psi under 2k reliably is best left for a super charger which has a nice predictable boost curve with little to no lag
As for centrifguls I have had pretty good luck with them at lower boost levels but for a 4.0 a roots type would be easier to install

RCP Phx
September 23rd, 2017, 19:40
I still think you need to dyno it somewhere else and get a full 3rd gear pull. Just my 2 cents. :dunce:

We'll at least the people I've dealt with are reputable, with the limited knowledge/products you have, you future may not be as bright! Why haven't you come up with a "Turbo package" and where's your dyno tickets?

Kittrell
September 23rd, 2017, 20:58
The 8.8 axle is almost ready to go in and that will help with the braking part - going from drums to disc ....

That will not help a lot. If you want to drastically improve your stopping power, do a WJ swap on your 30.

Boostwerks.com
September 24th, 2017, 12:33
We'll at least the people I've dealt with are reputable, with the limited knowledge/products you have, you future may not be as bright! Why haven't you come up with a "Turbo package" and where's your dyno tickets?

Whoa there. No need for :rattle:

With my "limited knowledge" I've discovered that dyno results can vary... A LOT. If you want to publish your 400ft/lb stroker on a public forum, you might as well make sure your not posting skewed results. If it makes the same amount of power on a different dyno, then more power too ya. Until then, it's hard for anyone to take it seriously.

This was a customer's results btw...

4.2L block, 4.0L HO head, 50 trim T3/T4 on 6psi

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4376/37244818856_fe03685aa7_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/YKcr4f)barnacleturbodynosheetcrop_zps8cc2ba2f (https://flic.kr/p/YKcr4f) by Bryson Whissen (https://www.flickr.com/photos/150006253@N08/), on Flickr

Jeep Driver
September 24th, 2017, 13:11
http://i.imgur.com/ItiBrnJ.gif (https://imgur.com/ItiBrnJ)

Cummins90
September 24th, 2017, 14:39
First question is what do you plan to tune with? Are you going to....
-Full standalone megasquirt?
-Have a super smart person rescale a JTEC ECU?
-Piggy back using a AEM FIC or a split second FTC?
-Throw caution to the wind and install a larger set of injectors and call it a day?

Second question do you want a super charger or turbocharger? If someone says you need a supercharger because a 4.0 motor cannot spool up a turbo by 1400rpm (or whatever rpm you want) they just simply don't know what they are talking about. Turbine wheel and housing combinations exist for this very purpose.

I am currently running a stock engine with a m90 with a 2.55 pulley. About 10psi by 2400rpm. 36lbs injectors tuning with the 1913 FIC. It's got more power to it but nothing I would want to tow with and I'm at 390 feet above sea level. If I where to tow with my xj I would absolutely use a turbocharger with a flow map capable of pushing 20 to 25 psi. With an intercooler, W/m, colder plugs, bigger TB, forged lower cr posting and a big trans cooler.

Third question. How would you feel about a log manifold that bolts the turbo under the intake manifold for under $300 shipped to your door?

Green XJ Jeep
September 24th, 2017, 21:20
Second question do you want a super charger or turbocharger? If someone says you need a supercharger because a 4.0 motor cannot spool up a turbo by 1400rpm (or whatever rpm you want) they just simply don't know what they are talking about. Turbine wheel and housing combinations exist for this very purpose.

I am currently running a stock engine with a m90 with a 2.55 pulley. About 10psi by 2400rpm. 36lbs injectors tuning with the 1913 FIC. It's got more power to it but nothing I would want to tow with and I'm at 390 feet above sea level. If I where to tow with my xj I would absolutely use a turbocharger with a flow map capable of pushing 20 to 25 psi. With an intercooler, W/m, colder plugs, bigger TB, forged lower cr posting and a big trans cooler.


No one suggested a 4.0 couldn't spool up a turbo.
I suggested that a supercharger is a better application for 5ish psi from idle to 2k rpm than a remote mount turbo. Not only for lag reasons from the long pressure side run from behind the trans cross member but imo hanging a turbo under the body of a off road vehicle just screams bad idea.


Do you have any pics of how you mounted the m90?

Cummins90
September 25th, 2017, 07:29
No one suggested a 4.0 couldn't spool up a turbo.
I suggested that a supercharger is a better application for 5ish psi from idle to 2k rpm than a remote mount turbo. Not only for lag reasons from the long pressure side run from behind the trans cross member but imo hanging a turbo under the body of a off road vehicle just screams bad idea.


Do you have any pics of how you mounted the m90?

That wasn't directed at you or anyone specifically. It is a state of mind that pops up in the jeep world for some reason.

https://imgur.com/a/VS3VZ
https://imgur.com/a/yuvy7
https://imgur.com/a/qhKFW
https://imgur.com/a/zAeVL

Fosters
September 25th, 2017, 07:37
First question is what do you plan to tune with? Are you going to....
-Full standalone megasquirt?
-Have a super smart person rescale a JTEC ECU?
-Piggy back using a AEM FIC or a split second FTC?
-Throw caution to the wind and install a larger set of injectors and call it a day?

Second question do you want a super charger or turbocharger? If someone says you need a supercharger because a 4.0 motor cannot spool up a turbo by 1400rpm (or whatever rpm you want) they just simply don't know what they are talking about. Turbine wheel and housing combinations exist for this very purpose.

I am currently running a stock engine with a m90 with a 2.55 pulley. About 10psi by 2400rpm. 36lbs injectors tuning with the 1913 FIC. It's got more power to it but nothing I would want to tow with and I'm at 390 feet above sea level. If I where to tow with my xj I would absolutely use a turbocharger with a flow map capable of pushing 20 to 25 psi. With an intercooler, W/m, colder plugs, bigger TB, forged lower cr posting and a big trans cooler.

Third question. How would you feel about a log manifold that bolts the turbo under the intake manifold for under $300 shipped to your door?

From my research, the 4.0 can be tuned with the SCT software so that shouldn't be a problem; the guy I used for my mustang can probably tune a bicycle if it's got an obd2 port ;).

I'm not looking to tow very heavy - I have my dually for that... The campers I'm looking at, range from teardrops to the 14' range, and weigh about 800-2500 lbs. I know it'll pull a teardrop just fine, whereas a conventional travel trailer will have a much bigger aero footprint and that may be a problem... I'm pretty sure I won't need 20psi :)

Since I'm going through the head swap now, I honestly can't see myself wanting to bolt anything else to the driver side of the engine; and I would really hate adding more heat to this thing as is... That being said, the side mount M90 blower kits i found look pretty sweet; but pricier than a remote mount turbo would end up being...

Fosters
September 25th, 2017, 07:42
Whoa there. No need for :rattle:

With my "limited knowledge" I've discovered that dyno results can vary... A LOT. If you want to publish your 400ft/lb stroker on a public forum, you might as well make sure your not posting skewed results. If it makes the same amount of power on a different dyno, then more power too ya. Until then, it's hard for anyone to take it seriously.

This was a customer's results btw...

4.2L block, 4.0L HO head, 50 trim T3/T4 on 6psi

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4376/37244818856_fe03685aa7_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/YKcr4f)barnacleturbodynosheetcrop_zps8cc2ba2f (https://flic.kr/p/YKcr4f) by Bryson Whissen (https://www.flickr.com/photos/150006253@N08/), on Flickr

Agreed - that all-gears dyno is quite silly... lol.

It's good to see that dyno too, that's right up with what I wanna do; very nice torque curve. :)

burntkat
September 25th, 2017, 09:35
That will not help a lot. If you want to drastically improve your stopping power, do a WJ swap on your 30.

and then if you want to REALLY improve your stopping power, go hydroboost.

I did it on my S10 when I went to the D44s and V8. I'll never look back to vacuum boost.

burntkat
September 25th, 2017, 09:38
https://imgur.com/a/zAeVL

That is just dead sexy. Great job on the plenum- how does it attach, and how are you clearing the hood?

I'm pretty much committed to doing a SBC in my 90, but this may change things.

burntkat
September 25th, 2017, 09:41
That being said, the side mount M90 blower kits i found look pretty sweet; but pricier than a remote mount turbo would end up being...

I've looked at doing a remote mount turbo. In an XJ it seems to me it would be too exposed in the undercarriage. Maybe fine if the vehicle never wheels or fords water, but the "frame" rails (yes, I know, let's move along) are only something like 2" high IIRC, not a lot of room there to protect it.

Green XJ Jeep
September 25th, 2017, 10:07
That wasn't directed at you or anyone specifically. It is a state of mind that pops up in the jeep world for some reason.

https://imgur.com/a/VS3VZ
https://imgur.com/a/yuvy7
https://imgur.com/a/qhKFW
https://imgur.com/a/zAeVL

Thanks for the pics.
Did you make the plenum yourself?

Green XJ Jeep
September 25th, 2017, 10:09
That is just dead sexy. Great job on the plenum- how does it attach, and how are you clearing the hood?

I'm pretty much committed to doing a SBC in my 90, but this may change things.

M90's are relatively cheap and incredibly versitile. One of my favorite superchargers to date. Lysholms are anothe favorite.

burntkat
September 25th, 2017, 11:27
OK, but how does the plenum attach, and does it clear the hood?

Fosters
September 25th, 2017, 13:27
I've looked at doing a remote mount turbo. In an XJ it seems to me it would be too exposed in the undercarriage. Maybe fine if the vehicle never wheels or fords water, but the "frame" rails (yes, I know, let's move along) are only something like 2" high IIRC, not a lot of room there to protect it.

Yeah, not a lot of water to go through here in the desert... If I lived in MN still I would definitely not even consider it. It would hang maybe an inch or so lower than the muffler or cat.

The wheeling will be reserved to areas where a camper with flipped axles can get to; so no crazy rock climbing, just choppy forest roads at most.

burntkat
September 25th, 2017, 14:13
Yes I don't wheel crazy, either, but living in this area, Ford fording water to some degree is a regular occurrence due to tropical storms and the like. I shudder to think what a sudden dunking would do to a turbo.

Cummins90
September 25th, 2017, 14:20
https://imgur.com/a/zT2ti

No unfortunately it does not clear the hood. I contacted someone who makes kits for the jeep xj and asked to buy just the conversion plates. I was told very politely to kick rocks.

The riser block is just a 4x6x10 or maybe 12" Block of aluminum. The conversion plate is from Aussie speed shop. The machine work was done as a trade. All I did was carve the blocks out of poplar block and a board. Then they where replicated as aluminum. The anchors are the four throttle body bolts and the throttle cable bracket boss and one of the 1/4 npt barbs which was filled with a plug and tapped.

To the op... I would discourage 5psi out of an m90 or turbo that is appropriately sized because the amount of support needed to run correctly out weighs the gains. This is why I'm saying to run higher flows. If you want a little more power a stroker is probably the best option. Just my opinion.

The JTEC ecu can be made to run boost but my understanding is that it decreases resolution in the vacuum part of the map.

Fosters
September 25th, 2017, 15:47
To the op... I would discourage 5psi out of an m90 or turbo that is appropriately sized because the amount of support needed to run correctly out weighs the gains. This is why I'm saying to run higher flows. If you want a little more power a stroker is probably the best option. Just my opinion.

The JTEC ecu can be made to run boost but my understanding is that it decreases resolution in the vacuum part of the map.

I got ya, but i'm not looking for massive power. I'm mainly looking to maintain that 200hp/300tq that a stroker would make but when it's up at high altitude - something n/a motors don't do well at all.

Basically I'm gonna be pulling something between this:
http://www.runawaycampers.com/models-prices (the coolcamp)
and this:
https://www.gulfstreamcoach.com/products/light-weight/amerilite/model/14RBC

Just need something that can venture onto a dirt road a bit better than this setup :) :

https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/21032305_10155702991524826_824827858036362160_n.jp g?oh=6358fafdda8172e30198f60c473927a9&oe=5A41139A

RCP Phx
September 25th, 2017, 16:04
Here's mine, it's heavy because it has everything but A/C(indoor shower/toilet,heater,stove,refridgerator,sink,shower,hot water heater,20gal fresh water,10gal black,killer stereo)! It tows great with little wind resistance and it does have electric brakes! I can hang out for about 2 weeks w/o supplies.
http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww220/apayne82/Trailer/IMG_27041_zpsdec32968.jpg
http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww220/apayne82/Trailer/P1080325_zps4bc4223f.jpg
http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww220/apayne82/Trailer/P1080329_zpsbed09081.jpg

Cummins90
September 25th, 2017, 18:42
Can you show some figures so we can better understand what you are trying to achieve to get to 200hp at the wheels? And at what altitude?

burntkat
September 25th, 2017, 19:22
Anther option for ecm is to convert to a GM efi system. This can be done downright cheaply.

RCP Phx
September 26th, 2017, 11:56
This Spintex kit looks interesting!
https://static.summitracing.com/global/images/prod/xlarge/six-257a1007_xl.jpg?rep=False

Green XJ Jeep
September 26th, 2017, 12:19
This Spintex kit looks interesting!
https://static.summitracing.com/global/images/prod/xlarge/six-257a1007_xl.jpg?rep=False

There is actually a few nice kits out there but for what the op wants he might want to look at a nice stroker from Russ and some 4.11 to 4.56 gears

RCP Phx
September 26th, 2017, 13:10
There is actually a few nice kits out there but for what the op wants he might want to look at a nice stroker from Russ and some 4.11 to 4.56 gears

Well that was the point of my earlier post. The OP has got to build a strong motor to begin with costing big bucks. If he wants a blower, he has to figure that into the build and then spend big bucks again!

burntkat
September 26th, 2017, 20:00
An LS swap with low amount of boost sounds like what he needs, IMHO.

RCP Phx
September 29th, 2017, 05:47
One thing that hasn't been mentioned is gears. The stock automatic ratio is 3.55 with barely does the job on hills by itself. The Tow pkg came with 3.73's for a reason. Now add lift, weight , and wind resistance to that, now you need 4.10's just to get performance back in line!