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Stumbling/stalling Renix 4.0

Renegade XJ

NAXJA Forum User
Location
corona ca
I've searched to the point that I'm about to pull my hair out. 1989 Renix 4.0 AW4, all stock under the hood.

Starts and idles great, drives perfect for about .5 mile and then it starts stumbling, loses power and has stalled on me once now.

Will idle on my driveway no issue. Let it idle for an hour and nothing happened.

Fuel pressure is great, 31psi/40psi when the fuel pressure regulator vac. Line is disconnected.

CPS passes Ohm test at 230 ohms consistently.
CPS passes acv test spikeing from .5 to .9 volts.

Coil is testing bad..... But I'm not sure if I'm testing it correctly. I can't find the FSM I had for it that showed the testing procedure. Currently I'm testing for ohms. With the coil removed from the ICM I have one lead where the coil wire attaches to and the other lead on one of the connector post at the bottom of the coil. I'm getting about 4.5ohms, I believe it should be zero.

Stator/cam shaft sensor/pick up coil (whatever you want to call it) is testing at 2.8vac

Any ideas?

Less than 200miles on fresh tune up, had issue prior to tune up. Progressively getting worse.
 
Through my searching I've ran into you post a few times and those are good suggestions but would really help right now is the actual procedure of how to test the coil. Anybody got an answer for this?
 
I never said I was going to over look them, as a matter of fact I already did most of what's stated in those post and it has not resolved the issue, which it why I am asking a very specific question on how to TEST the coil.
 
I never said I was going to over look them, as a matter of fact I already did most of what's stated in those post and it has not resolved the issue, which it why I am asking a very specific question on how to TEST the coil.

To test the coil you are going to have to separate it from the ignition module.

High voltage stud to one pole of the coil (not the spade connector, the round poles) should be around 5 kilo ohms (at least on the coil I tested with my meter, results are likely to vary from coil to coil and with different meters), from the high voltage stud to either round pole.

Between the two round poles around 1 ohm, though I've seen them anywhere from 2-4 ohms on occasion.

The ignition module needs a special tester, they used to have one at Napa, though that was many years ago.

These numbers are from my spare coil. Coil tests can be iffy, I've had results all over the place. I'm usually happy with low single digit ohms to the primary part of the coil (12 volt/ground) and very high resistance between the secondary (high voltage) and either of the primary coil poles. With seriously high resistance (or no resistance) between any pole and the metal hosing.

The reason you have to separate the coil from the module is, some of the module internals ground to or through the housing and may indicate a short that doesn't exist in the coil itself.

Ohm testing a coil can be iffy anyway, depending on the quality of your meter. You are introducing current through your ohm leads while testing and inductance can cause issues with the accuracy of your measurements. That coil is designed to step 12-14 volts to somewhere around 35,000 volts. So the current you are introducing with your ohm meter and the current your meter is trying to read to determine ohms is likely to be iffy at best and maybe unreliable. In a nutshell, two different meters are likely to give two different results. neither of which are likely to be definitive.

That spade connector test point on the coil usually reads near battery voltage (usually 1 volt or so line loss) with the ignition on with the coil and module mated up (as a unit) and grounded properly.

Your sync sensor should have close (maybe 4.8) to 5 volts in, with the connector connected and it should pulse while the motor is cranking. I usually strip back a tiny bit of insulation from the wire to test, instead of trying to back pole the connector. I've never had good luck at trying to back pole connectors. Seal the bare wire back up with a dab of silicon if you are feeling anal. :)

Making sure the wiring is good between the CPS and the ECU is just as important as the CPS itself is.

My CPS would crap out and fail at the same stop light every morning when I drove my son to work. The third time it started running really crappy and stalled at the same spot I thought I was jinxed. It turned out to be a temperature thing with my CPS. One morning on a hunch I dumped a bottle of water onto the CPS after my motor crapped out and refused to restart. It tarted right up and ran fine for while.

Does it stall out with a steady gas pedal or when you release the gas pedal?

Second best guess is the EGR is sticking. It will only open when the motor is up to operating temperature and when you are cruising. If it sticks open when you release the gas pedal, the motor may stall and if it doesn't stall it will idle really bad.

A stuck shut IAC will do much the same as a stuck open EGR. The motor will die when you release the gas pedal, it is unlikely to idle at all.

The low voltage to your sync senor may indicate a shorted sensor. Sensors often share the same supply voltage. I'm not exactly sure which sensors share with the sync sensor. Try unplugging the sync sensor and leaving it unplugged and see what happens. Mine runs reasonably well without a sync sensor. I once forgot and left it unplugged for months and ever noticed anything out of the ordinary.

I've had a Renix since 87 and have spent maybe a thousand hours (likely more) troubleshooting and repairing stuff. I use Cruisers lists, his systematic approach and completeness may save you wasting time in the long run. Sometimes the process of elimination is the only way you are ever going to find the problem. Jumping form component to component hoping to get lucky usually gets my head to spinning in short order. And you always run the risk of building a problem into your XJ while trying to hunt down the original problem and having one of those OH Chit! moments.

Sorry about the edits, my eyes are bad and I have to reread something numerous times to pick up most of the typos and mistakes.
 
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8Mud, thanks for the post. It has an EGR valve that I installed about two years ago. I haven't bothered testing it yet but I'll check it again.

BTW, it will not stall unless I get off the gas. I managed to drive almost two blocks with the throttle about half way down (running like shit) and then all of a sudden it picked back up and ran like normal for a few more blocks. Them shitty angain but I kept it alive for an other block or so and as I pulled into my driveway it cleared up and ran fine.

Keep in mind every time I have this issue is from a cold start and it all happens in under one mile of driving (my commute to work and back is 1 mile each way)

For whatever reason I can't duplicate it idling in my driveway.

Tonight I'll be buying some dielectric grease and electrical cleaner and finish up cleaning all the connectors under the plastic cover in the engine bay (by the relays). I'm thinking of replacing all my relays while I'm at it, this look tp be as old as the Jeep.

My optima blue top is putting out a constant voltage of 9.5 (engine off) it's a fairly old battery.... At least 8 years. Should I have it load tested just to eleminate it as a possible cause?
 
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What is your charging voltage with the engine running? 9.5 sounds like you have a bad cell or maybe a bad diode in the alternator and it is putting out low voltage.

Low voltage to the electronics can cause all sorts of issues, 9 volts is kind of borderline, 6 volts and it can shut down all together.

I'm not a big fan of using dielectric grease in low voltage sensor circuits. It works OK in 12 volt circuits.

If you aren't getting around 11.5 volts to the larger yellow wire with the engine running, something is wrong. You'll typically loose a volt or two between the battery, through all the wiring, connectors, the ignition switch etc. and the ignition module. The lower the voltage to that larger yellow wire at the ignition module the weaker the spark. I periodically run my XJ through a too large puddle or too deep mud hole, the voltage may start to leak to ground through the various connectors. The spark deteriorates just when you need it the most, as the voltage to the ignition module drops off.

Still sounds a lot like a CPS (or CPS wiring issue). I've had, mine run like crap, on and off, randomly, in the beginning stages of CPS failure. But with 9.5 volts, a charging system issues is sure a possibility.
 
The default for the EGR vacuum solenoid is open. This means when the solenoid fails or the connector falls apart (a fairly common occurrence) the EGR has vacuum and is open all the time. It will idle very poorly if at all with the EGR open. Maybr your connector is really loose and making iffy contact.

The electrical connector at the solenoid is one of the first to deteriorate from the heat and elements and fall apart.

I wonder if the hoses for your fuel pump are rotting from E15 gas (or whatever mix they use by you) and the problem only shows up as the fuel is sloshing around in the tank? I once drove around, up hill, down hill, accelerating and braking with a fuel pressure gauge taped to my windshield wiper. My issue turned out to be the ballast resistor, it kind of worked, but the output voltage was really random. When I unscrewed it and looked at the back side I saw the whole rear of the resistor was blown open and the ceramic in the rear was dust.

That reminds me, the output voltage of the ballast resistor is typically 2-3 volts lower than the input voltage. If you are putting 9.5 volts into the ballast resistor with the motor running, you may be only getting 6 volts out, which isn't enough for the fuel pump to be reliable. Just a thought.
 
I'm gonna check in that ballast restor, my gut keeps telling me to look at it. But I need to get my overall voltage back up from 9.5 first.

I got 9.5 from that battery with the engine off, I can't remember if the ignition was on though. Tonight I'll test the battery voltage with a little more time and post up my results.
 
One source, a PDF FSM for an 88, says the sync sensor is supposed to have a 5 volt supply voltage, another PDF 88 MJ electrical manual says the supply voltage is supposed to be 7.1 volts. Whatever it is, 2.8 volts isn't it.:) The motor will run without the sync sensor, but low voltage at the sensor may be an indicator of a deeper problem. All I know is cause and effect and have no real idea how the ECU is wired to furnish the supply voltages, they are unlikely to be separate power supplies and more likely to be one, single or multi tap, power supply. One shorted sensor is likely to suck down the supply voltage to other sensors. I unplug the sensors one at a time and recheck the (low) supply voltage after each connector removal (sensor shorts seem to be more common in OBD1-2 XJ's than Renix XJ's). When the supply voltage pops back up to normal you have found the bad sensor. Sensors can short or have open circuits (more common in the Renix), both of which are bad. Garbage into the ECU equals garbage out of the ECU, few failures will cause the ECU to crap out completely.

If you have a low 5 volt supply voltage to the MAP. red wire with a stripe. it will cause the motor to run really poorly. Every time the key is turned to the run position the MAP senses a baseline (atmospheric pressure) for the vacuum readings. The MAP ground is also important as five volts to a chassis ground may not b the same as five volts to a sensor ground. The MAP, the TPS and other stuff shares the same gorund through splices. I check my sensor grounds on a regular bases, they tend to build resistance with age and the corrosion level at the connectors and the end ground near the engine oil dipstick brace.

The vacuum line to the MAP sensor having a rub through or a crack has about the same symptoms as a marginal CPS in the beginning. A MAP that has the wrong supply voltage, a poor ground or a cracked vacuum line often shows up as a really rich fuel condition and the motor runs very poorly.

I saw one XJ with an ECU failure and the supply voltage for the MAP was 12 volts. It fried the MAP (actually two MAPS)before we figured out the cause. The one and only ECU failure I've ever seen in a Renix XJ.

A quick test for the health of your sensor grounds is to do a "volt" test between the TPS ground wire and the battery negative pole. A typical reading may be .3 volts (point three volts), this is the voltage that can't go to ground like it should (standing/wasted voltage) and translates (using Ohms law) into resistance. It is unlikely to ever be perfect, but you can get close.
 
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Well looks like I'm starting my trouble shooting all over. Finally was able to my hands on my Fluke 87III instead of the el-CHEAPO one I was using before. New readings include:

7.01v to sync sensor
12.1v from battery ignition off
14.3v from battery engine running
4.76 ohms from high voltage stud to pole on coil
.6 ohms between poles on coil.

Having high quality tools sure makes life easier. Now to check the CPS and a few other sensors.
 
218ohms at CPS

0-5v while cranking on CPS...... FSM says it should be 5-8v might have just found my problem. Gonna go ahead and replace it and finish doing a refresher to all my electrical like Crusier says.
 
New CPS installed and issue seems to be resolved. I started taking my intake and exhaust manifold off to fix an exhaust leak and found my knock sensor has basically disintegrated.
 
Well looks like I'm starting my trouble shooting all over. Finally was able to my hands on my Fluke 87III instead of the el-CHEAPO one I was using before. New readings include:

7.01v to sync sensor
12.1v from battery ignition off
14.3v from battery engine running
4.76 ohms from high voltage stud to pole on coil
.6 ohms between poles on coil.

Having high quality tools sure makes life easier. Now to check the CPS and a few other sensors.

4.76 ohms sounds way low for a measurement from the high voltage stud to the 12 volt pole on the coil. You may have been looking at the wrong scale on your meter.
 
New CPS installed and issue seems to be resolved. I started taking my intake and exhaust manifold off to fix an exhaust leak and found my knock sensor has basically disintegrated.
very common.

at least you can actually buy one these days.
it's not critical, but will make it perform better.
 
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