Longevity of Full Traction heim/flex joints vs poly bushings?

anthrax323 · Dec 2, 2013

Hey guys,

I love my IronMan control arms (currently rigged up with RE drop brackets at ~5.5" of lift), but I'm now facing a need for 3rd set of polyurethane bushings in less than 2 years. I last replaced them less than a year ago (~7 months really), and after fewer than a dozen moderate overnight wheeling trips later, they're already falling apart and causing some caster and clunking issues.

First question: are there any greases to avoid? I've been using Castrol Pyroplex Blue (confirmed to be a petroleum product via MSDS data), and can't find any data detailing its compatibility with polyurethane. If there's something else I should try before abandoning hope for polyurethane moving forward, I'm all ears.

Second: would I be reasonable in expecting better life out of the heim/flex joints used in the Full Traction long-arm setup? This is something that I've been looking at doing for a while now, and would rather avoid another round of bushing replacements in favor of a long-arm setup. My only heim experience thus far is with the RE1600 track bar I used to run, and it remained tight over the course of 2+ years but eventually squeaked (which was mitigated by Liquid Wrench). My RE1660 flex joint seems to be holding up just fine.

I know cal and the Petty Cash guys would have the end-all say in this, but I'd love to hear the opinions of others.

Larrythedog · Dec 2, 2013

Just my two cents.........go with the Full Traction long arm kit if you can afford it. A good heim, if well maintained will always out last a bushing.

yossarian19 · Dec 2, 2013

Larrythedog said:
Just my two cents.........go with the Full Traction long arm kit if you can afford it. A good heim, if well maintained will always out last a bushing.

Really? FT is a great kit, but heim joints longer lasting than bushings? Well, you do qualify with "if well maintained"...

anthrax323 · Dec 2, 2013

yossarian19 said:
Really? FT is a great kit, but heim joints longer lasting than bushings? Well, you do qualify with "if well maintained"...

Do heims require maintenance? I thought they were basically a disposable link. As stated previously I sprayed my RE1600 chassis-side heim down with LW to stop a squeak, but I'm still not sure if that was considered proper maintenance.

These polyurethane bushings need to go though...

O-Gauge Steamer · Dec 2, 2013

Depends on the Heim joint in question. Some have grease fittings and therefore must be kept properly lubricated. Others are "lubricated for life" which I have always taken as meaning "guaranteed to fail at the worst possible moment".

zachandandy · Dec 2, 2013

I've destroyed countless bushings and Heims not only last longer, but a "failed" heim develops a very slight amount of play. A rubber or poly bushing can lead to huge amounts of play when blown out. I say go with Heims.

anthrax323 · Dec 2, 2013

Sounds good to me. Thanks for the input guys!

yossarian19 · Dec 2, 2013

I think the different experiences people have with heims and bushings are most likely tied to application. My hypothesis is that heims will last longer in high misalignment conditions while a bushing may be better in stock-like applications. This would be because a bushing is only designed to deform so far, "so far" being exceeded in long-travel suspension. Just a guess here.
Ruffstuff Specialities gets good reviews for their heim joints and the price seems competitive.

Johnnie Walker · Dec 2, 2013

Poly bushings do not have much give, like rubber tho

sunburned · Dec 3, 2013

anthrax323 said:
Hey guys,

I love my IronMan control arms (currently rigged up with RE drop brackets at ~5.5" of lift), but I'm now facing a need for 3rd set of polyurethane bushings in less than 2 years. I last replaced them less than a year ago (~7 months really), and after fewer than a dozen moderate overnight wheeling trips later, they're already falling apart and causing some caster and clunking issues.

First question: are there any greases to avoid? I've been using Castrol Pyroplex Blue (confirmed to be a petroleum product via MSDS data), and can't find any data detailing its compatibility with polyurethane. If there's something else I should try before abandoning hope for polyurethane moving forward, I'm all ears.

Second: would I be reasonable in expecting better life out of the heim/flex joints used in the Full Traction long-arm setup? This is something that I've been looking at doing for a while now, and would rather avoid another round of bushing replacements in favor of a long-arm setup. My only heim experience thus far is with the RE1600 track bar I used to run, and it remained tight over the course of 2+ years but eventually squeaked (which was mitigated by Liquid Wrench). My RE1660 flex joint seems to be holding up just fine.

I know cal and the Petty Cash guys would have the end-all say in this, but I'd love to hear the opinions of others.

1) Poly bushings don't degrade from any type of grease. Prothane and Energy only give you the crazy sticky grease because it's very resistant to getting washed out of the bushing/shell.

2) Poly bushings that are flexed a whole lot will tear, no matter how new they are. That stuff is pretty stiff, probably meant more for high performance cars than super flexy offroad trucks.

An in between would be johnny joints, which have a bit of 'give' from the delrin races instead of metal on metal joints like heims.

Larrythedog · Dec 3, 2013

yossarian19 said:
Really? FT is a great kit, but heim joints longer lasting than bushings? Well, you do qualify with "if well maintained"...

The quality of the joint it self makes a huge difference.

cal · Dec 3, 2013

anthrax323 said:
I know cal and the Petty Cash guys would have the end-all say in this, but I'd love to hear the opinions of others.

LOL

I clicked on the thread thinking "hey, i have some positive feedback here!" .. but i guess you already knew that.

As expected I'd say, I guess, with 2 full seasons on our Full Traction kit, the joints are still rock solid. If we replace them before the 2014 season, it will only be because we pick up new arms and make the existing ones spares (I'm on a spares collecting kick right now..).

rockclimber · Dec 3, 2013

sunburned said:
An in between would be johnny joints, which have a bit of 'give' from the delrin races instead of metal on metal joints like heims.

the Johnny Joint uses a proprietary urethane cup that is not made of delrin. it has a lower durometer, which means it prevents significantly more NVH than delrin or poly.

OP

Poly bushings have no place in an offroad suspension.

Heims work for some things, and will certainly work better than a poly bushing.

I am not sure what brand heim that Full-Traction is running in their arms, Cal might know, but I would avoid the injected race style a la Ruffstuff and Midwest control. they wear faster and the races have a habit of being pushed out when side loaded. try to get a teflon lined metallic race like a good FK heim.

but if you can I highly reccomend a Johnny Joint over a heim. a 2.5" Johnny Joint will outlast any heim.

cal · Dec 3, 2013

rockclimber said:
the Johnny Joint uses a proprietary urethane cup that is not made of delrin. it has a lower durometer, which means it prevents significantly more NVH than delrin or poly.

OP

Poly bushings have no place in an offroad suspension.

Heims work for some things, and will certainly work better than a poly bushing.

I am not sure what brand heim that Full-Traction is running in their arms, Cal might know, but I would avoid the injected race style a la Ruffstuff and Midwest control. they wear faster and the races have a habit of being pushed out when side loaded. try to get a teflon lined metallic race like a good FK heim.

but if you can I highly reccomend a Johnny Joint over a heim. a 2.5" Johnny Joint will outlast any heim.

I could not agree any less.

I run Ruff Stuff heims all over the place, and they hold up great.

I have to rebuild my johnny joints every ******** season.

MoparManiac · Dec 3, 2013

My Ruffstuff heims have held up on my front 3 link for 3 years, including a few Line Mtn races, one of which involved railing a tree at 25 mph that bent a high steer arm.

When I had johnny joints on my D44s (and yes, they were CURRIE Johnny joints) in my old XJ, they had so much slop after a few months that I was beyond pissed.

Rockclimber, I feel like every post you make on here is a regurgitation of the latest Pirate4x4 thread.

rockclimber · Dec 3, 2013

cal said:
I could not agree any less.

I run Ruff Stuff heims all over the place, and they hold up great.

I have to rebuild my johnny joints every ******** season.

I, as well as several people I know had the exact opposite issue, Ruffstuff has had to warranty me 3 heims in 2 years whereas the FK heim I replaced them with has now lasted a year without issue. no other change in setup. and the Johnny Joints in my control arms have lasted 4 years on the same bushings halves.

MoparManiac said:
My Ruffstuff heims have held up on my front 3 link for 3 years, including a few Line Mtn races, one of which involved railing a tree at 25 mph that bent a high steer arm.

When I had johnny joints on my D44s (and yes, they were CURRIE Johnny joints) in my old XJ, they had so much slop after a few months that I was beyond pissed.

what size joint? how were they setup?

Rockclimber, I feel like every post you make on here is a regurgitation of the latest Pirate4x4 thread.

cool story bro.

K.Hess · Dec 3, 2013

a few years ago I was on a race team that bent a grade 8 bolt into a U bolt inside a Ruff Stuff heim, the heim had no slop or play in it...

cal · Dec 3, 2013

rockclimber said:
I, as well as several people I know had the exact opposite issue, Ruffstuff has had to warranty me 3 heims in 2 years whereas the FK heim I replaced them with has now lasted a year without issue. no other change in setup. and the Johnny Joints in my control arms have lasted 4 years on the same bushings halves.

several people here claim a locked d35 is more than adequate for their 35's too. that doesnt make you guys any less wrong.

rockclimber said:
true story bro.

rockclimber · Dec 3, 2013

K.Hess said:
a few years ago I was on a race team that bent a grade 8 bolt into a U bolt inside a Ruff Stuff heim, the heim had no slop or play in it...

I'm not going to argue the Strength of a Ruffstuff Heim. I know they are strong. my problem lies in the design of the injected race, they lend themselves to have issues. not saying all will have problems, but there are better options out there.

cal said:
several people here claim a locked d35 is more than adequate for their 35's too. that doesnt make you guys any less wrong.

since when have I ever said a locked 35 was a good idea?

but if you wan't to get into it, the #1 failure of a D35 is the spider gears. replace the weak stock spider gears with a full-case locker and you have helped it out considerably. you still haven't fixed the issue of the weak housing, weak shafts and the small ring and pinion though..

I would never say that a d35 was adequate for anything better than being thrown in the ocean. I've watched one spit a side-gear out the cover pulling out of a gas station.

G2WANIT · Dec 3, 2013

:thumbup: RuffStuff Heims.

I've been running their 7/8" x 3/4" bore heims in my steering linkage for 4 years and have zero complaints. I used all right-hand thread and bought 2 extra to have as spares... still waiting for the chance to use a spare.

There are MUCH more expensive options, but I haven't found a reason to use them yet.

Longevity of Full Traction heim/flex joints vs poly bushings?

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