Build plan critique

OK guys, I'm looking for some feedback on my build plan.
First, here's where the jeep currently sits ('99, 4.0, AW-4, NP-231, D30, C8.25):

3" Front coils (too soft, only getting about 2.5" of lift out of them)
WJ LCAs
Stock UCAs
JK Rubicon shocks with 1" extender
WJ Knuckles w/OTK steering and trackbar from RuffStuff
Extended brakelines

3.5" OME CSO33RB rear leaf springs (4-4.5" of lift depending on load)
JK Rubicon Shocks

2x6" Rocker replacement
Custom front and rear bumpers
2x6" raised transmission crossmember
Full HD Offroad frame stiffeners
Cowl intake
HNT SYE

Sitting on 285/75R16 MT/R Kevlars mounted on Cragar Soft 8s.
Other than the WJ knuckle swap, the axles are completely stock

It's my DD, and I've wheeled it about half a dozen times at SMORR and Flat Nasty here in Missouri and its done pretty well. The front suspension needs some attention though, as the WJ control arms are beat to hell, the axle side LCA mounts are going to need replacement soon, the front springs are too soft, and I want to add a little more lift.

The new setup needs to stay comfortable on the street and comfortably do 70 on the highway. I'd like to stay relatively low to avoid the need to go with longarms at the moment. I'd like to eventually build my own 3-link, but don't really have time to do it yet, and I think I can build a capable rig without them. The plan is to stay on 285/75/R16s for at least the next set of tires (will be buying a new set in the next couple months).

With that in mind, here is my plan for the new setup.
Front:
-3.5" RE coils
-Undecided control arms with MetalCloak Duroflex bushings at both ends (considering just building my own and buying the joints with spuds, need to price things out though)
-Raised LCA and shock mounts on the axle
-Move coil buckets back on the axle
-Mount the trackbar Team/Pettycash KOH style
-Cut/reform the front of the inner fender wells for tire clearance (may just buy the TNT Customs ones)
-Prothane bumpstops
-Inner C gussets
-Axle truss
-Plate/reinforce or just replace altogether the passenger side UCA mount
-Cut/rotate inner Cs for proper caster if necessary
-Shocks TBD (probably bilstein of some sort, budget on this is TBD though)
-Riddler diff cover
-Grind stock axleshafts for full circle clips (already running 760x joints)

Rear:
-No lift shackle relocation w/slightly longer than stock shackle
-Raised shock mounts
-Shocks TBD (probably bilstein of some sort, budget on this is TBD though)
-Riddler diff cover

I'll be clocking the t-case, adding a belly skid and a gas tank skid along the way as well. Those just need steel and some extra time in the garage though.

A rear locker and a re-gear to 4.56 or 4.88 are also on the to-do list, but I can live with the stock 3.55s for a bit longer. At this point the front control arms and bushings are in need of replacement in the near future so that comes first. Upgraded axleshafts are also on the list for future upgrades.

My main questions:
-Anyone else running the duroflex bushings? I know they're still pretty new, but I've only found Imped's review of them on JF (he was really impressed with them), and threads here and on pirate asking if anyone is running them yet.
-Any reason a small front stretch from moving the coil buckets, combined with the raised LCA axle-side mounts, is a bad idea with stock frameside mounts? I know it'll change the stock geometry slightly, but I don't know enough about suspension geometry to to know if it'll matter or not.
-Should I look into trussing the rear at the same time I do the rest of this? Obviously a truss is never a bad idea, but is it necessary with a locker on 33s? Running a stock 8.25 with 29 spline shafts currently.
-At 3.5" of lift, will I need to cut and rotate the inner Cs for caster? I don't care if I do, just trying to get a feel for what work will be required. Everyone that I've seen do it has been running 4.5"+ of lift.
-I was looking at the JJ replacement cartridge for the axle side UCA bushings (http://www.currieenterprises.com/cestore/product.aspx?id=2890), then just replacing the JJ with another Duroflex bushing. Any reason that's a bad idea, or suggestions for a different replacement joint?
-Anything I'm missing, should do differently, etc?

Thanks in advance!

Can you weld?

If you can, make your own LCA....cheaper and stronger than anything you will ever buy. You can use threaded joints and just weld the bungs in. You can choose any rod end or Johnny joint.



Leave your LCA axle brackets in the same position but plate them....easier and you won't have to fiddle with the brackets.

Don't worry about turning your knuckles for such nominal lift....not necessary.

Leave the factory UCA bushings for now....in the future as you learn to weld, cut off the stock mounts and run UCA brackets that accept joints (like the LCA pic above). Easier to deal with and maintain and if you need top service it you can pull them out and do it on the bench....not something one can do with a complete axle. This suggestion would allow you to easily adjust your pinion angles as well (unlike the factory design 'C'). An example is (this one fits a 2 5/8" joint):



you can truss the rear....won't hurt but do it slowly

Welding is not a problem. I've done all the welding for the frame stiffeners, rocker replacements, OTK steering, bumpers, cross member, etc, myself. I'm planning on doing all this work myself as well. Going to find another stock axle to do all the work on as I have time, then just swap it under in a weekend.

cracker said:

Leave your LCA on the same position but plate them....easier and you won't have to fiddle with the brackets.

Click to expand...

Thought about this... but the stock brackets are really in rough shape. They've been hit quite a few times and both are starting to "peel" away from the control arm itself. I'll re-evaluate, but all new brackets don't seem like much work, and the extra clearance, and beefier brackets seem like they'd be nice to have.

Don't worry about turning your knuckles for such nominal lift....not necessary.

Click to expand...

Cool, I'll just plan on leaving them as-is.

Leave the factory UCA bushings for now....in the future as you learn to weld, cut off the stock mounts and run UCA brackets that accept joints (like the LCA pic above). Easier to deal with and maintain and if you need top service it you can pull them out and do it on the bench....not something one can do with a complete axle. This suggestion would allow you to easily adjust your pinion angles as well (unlike the factory design 'C')

Click to expand...

And this is why I asked the question. Since I was sticking with stock geometry, I was planning on sticking with stock style arms. Makes a lot more sense to just completely cut the stock stuff off and just run joints on both ends of the the upper control arms. Much simpler, and stronger. Thanks.

donthelegend said:

Thought about this... but the stock brackets are really in rough shape. They've been hit quite a few times and both are starting to "peel" away from the control arm itself. I'll re-evaluate, but all new brackets don't seem like much work, and the extra clearance, and beefier brackets seem like they'd be nice to have.

Click to expand...

You can replace them but they are tied in very annoyingly to the coil bucket.....not fun. Do NOT rotate them up though....by doing that, the UCA takes more force in preventing twist. This is why you see a lot of axle brackets on cars either above or below the centerline of the axle tube these days.

donthelegend said:

And this is why I asked the question. Since I was sticking with stock geometry, I was planning on sticking with stock style arms. Makes a lot more sense to just completely cut the stock stuff off and just run joints on both ends of the the upper control arms. Much simpler, and stronger. Thanks.

Click to expand...

yeah....do it this way if you have the skills. You can maintain the same geometry by rebuilding it to the same specs/locations.

You will either have to build a bridge over the D30casting to weld to or use nickel rod and weld directly to the casting. I prefer the latter unless you choose to truss the whole front axle.

don't raise the axle side LCA mounts unless you plan on raising the uppers to maintain separation.

a set of mini skids ala currie or JKS will do everything you need.

if I had to do it again, I would go with fox over bilstein for shock. price difference is slim to none and they are a better shock.


personally, I prefer johnny joints over the duroflex, their are issues with the design of the duroflex bushing that make me not want to run them.

cracker said:

yeah....do it this way if you have the skills. You can maintain the same geometry by rebuilding it to the same specs/locations.

You will either have to build a bridge over the D30casting to weld to or use nickel rod and weld directly to the casting. I prefer the latter unless you choose to truss the whole front axle.

Click to expand...

this looks like it might do the trick...

price is good too.


http://claytonoffroad.com/product_info.php/products_id/473?osCsid=51d115ab857501f86597fc811bed5a39

cracker said:

You will either have to build a bridge over the D30casting to weld to or use nickel rod and weld directly to the casting. I prefer the latter unless you choose to truss the whole front axle.

Click to expand...

An entire axle truss is the plan. I'm not sure which one I'll run or if I'll just make my own, but that will make welding the UCA mount on that side simple.

rockclimber said:

don't raise the axle side LCA mounts unless you plan on raising the uppers to maintain separation.

a set of mini skids ala currie or JKS will do everything you need.

if I had to do it again, I would go with fox over bilstein for shock. price difference is slim to none and they are a better shock.


personally, I prefer johnny joints over the duroflex, their are issues with the design of the duroflex bushing that make me not want to run them.

Click to expand...

Raising the uppers to match the lowers is an option since I'm trussing it and redoing them anyways... Although based on cracker's comment about rotational forces, it may be a better idea to just leave everything in stock locations. With building everything up, I'd think the extra rotational forces could be handled without issue though?

If I had started out with the mini-skids, things would be fine right now... but the mounts are peeling pretty badly. Definitely going to re-evaluate miniskids vs all new mounts, but the stock mounts need some serious straightening before mini-skids are even an option.

I'll do some more research on fox vs bilstein. That's probably going to be one of the last decisions and lots has to happen first, so I'm not worried about those specifics yet.

Could you expand on the issues you see with the duroflex design (or point me someplace that discusses the actual tech)? I've been reading about them and aside from their marketing hype and Imped's review, I'm having trouble finding much solid tech info on them.

rockclimber said:

this looks like it might do the trick...

price is good too.


http://claytonoffroad.com/product_info.php/products_id/473?osCsid=51d115ab857501f86597fc811bed5a39

Click to expand...

Yeah I saw that they listed that on their website. Not available yet but I'll be keeping an eye on it. Seems like it would work well for my needs.

donthelegend said:

Raising the uppers to match the lowers is an option since I'm trussing it and redoing them anyways... Although based on cracker's comment about rotational forces, it may be a better idea to just leave everything in stock locations. With building everything up, I'd think the extra rotational forces could be handled without issue though?

Click to expand...

you will be hard pressed to raise them up any higher and keep them out of the oil pan without changing geometry.

as far as the additional rotational force, the stock bushings are pretty small already, and even a 2" Johnny Joint won't last very long, the races just aren't big enough.

Could you expand on the issues you see with the duroflex design (or point me someplace that discusses the actual tech)? I've been reading about them and aside from their marketing hype and Imped's review, I'm having trouble finding much solid tech info on them.

Click to expand...

the duroflex joint relies on the same physics of an oem style bushing

They replaced the best part of the JJ, the center ball and replaced it with the worst part of a bushing, the bonded sleeve.

They are asking the bushing to deflect and warp in order for the suspension to articulate. That is Not what you want in an OffRoad joint.

Also, any material they are using with a low enough durometer to allow the deflection needed to get the 34 degrees of misalignment they are claiming is going to be soft enough to give the same kind of loose suspension feel as the oem bushings.

rockclimber said:

the duroflex joint relies on the same physics of an oem style bushing

They replaced the best part of the JJ, the center ball and replaced it with the worst part of a bushing, the bonded sleeve.

They are asking the bushing to deflect and warp in order for the suspension to articulate. That is Not what you want in an OffRoad joint.

Also, any material they are using with a low enough durometer to allow the deflection needed to get the 34 degrees of misalignment they are claiming is going to be soft enough to give the same kind of loose suspension feel as the oem bushings.

Click to expand...

Why is asking the bushing to "deflect and warp" in order to articulate a bad thing, when the bushing was designed to do exactly that? I can see why it's bad in a stock bushing that really wasn't designed for it, but that is exactly what these are supposed to do. So why is it bad?

Another way to look at is they took the worst part of the JJ, polyurethane, and replaced it with the best part of a stock bushing, the flexible rubber.

In all seriousness, why are the stock clevite bushings bad offroad? My understanding is this:
-They aren't design to be flexed to the max, and thus wear out prematurely
-They don't misalign as much as an offroad joint, which limits axle travel
-They aren't as "tight" as an offroad joint (this is in direct correlation to NVH, by being "looser" they absorb bumps, jolts, etc

These are all understandable, as they weren't designed to do what we ask our rigs to do. But let's look at the Duroflex bushing. It is designed from the outset to:
-Flex all the time. It's an offroad joint.
-Misalign as much as possible. 34* per joint.
-Balance the "tightness" of solid offroad joint (heim, JJ, or otherwise) with the dampening ability of rubber


Worth noting here, I'm replacing the stock control arms because the bushings are worn out and because they arms themselves are not holding up. I actually don't have a problem with the way the bushings "feel". I've seen several references with respect to the duroflex bushings that they allow "uncontrolled axle movement". I don't quite get this. They are rubber, they allow flex in multiple directions, to a certain point. But they still control the axle movement. It just isn't as restrained as with a JJ or heim.


The bottom line is that I daily drive this rig 15K miles a year. I wheel it as much as I can, but right now that means about 5 weekends a year. When I do wheel it, I don't want to have to baby it and I don't want to just drive down a dirt road, but I am willing to make certain sacrifices for on road manners.


I don't want to start a pissing match, but here is what I have found regarding Duroflex bushings:
-They are designed to be more forgiving on road without sacrificing offroad ability. The are not necessarily intended to be BETTER than JJs, but they are intended to be DIFFERENT. They are also not designed to be junk.
-People who swear by JJs won't run them because they aren't JJs and why the hell would they want anything else.
-Anyone who has switched from JJs to Duroflex absolutely loves them. There aren't a lot of these people though. I literally CANNOT find anyone who has ACTUALLY RUN duroflex bushings that hasn't liked them.


I know that sounds like I have my mind made up and I am just looking for validation, not advice. And while that's not completely inaccurate, it's only because I have looked and can't find anyone who has been able to tell me why duroflex bushings are bad, or won't work, other than "they aren't JJs", "rubber sucks", or "they haven't been proven yet". The last reason I understand, but I'm willing to take that chance based on what I've read so far.


Any other thoughts, keep them coming. Rockclimber, if I'm an idiot and everything I just wrote is wrong, I look forward to you telling me why.

Joints are preference. ....no perfect answer there.

I will say that I prefer a threaded rod end.....the cool part is if you don't like it or wear something out, you can thread in another option.