Headlight data thread

I don't want this thread to get cluttered with argument about HIDs or anything else. I'm trying to start a thread for polite discussion with metrics to back up assertions, or when opinions are given without metrics, a clear cue like "I think..." or "I feel...". Also note that I use Daniel Stern as a reference multiple times through this post and link back to his site. I am in no way affiliated with Daniel Stern and have never been a customer of his. He doesn't know I'm posting this, either. This isn't a commercial post. I hope it's informative.

The factory equipped headlights are #6054. The only info I could find, here, puts the lumens rating at ~700.
Daniel Stern, a well respected vehicle lighting consultant, recomends the GE Nighthawk as the only cost effective direct replacement. I have not tried these but am confident that Mr. Stern knows what he is talking about. Also note that these Nighthawk bulbs are rated by Mr. Stern a being a much better choice than Autopal H4 conversions, which I'll discuss more as we go.

The single most effective upgrade you can put on a halogen headlight system is a relay kit. You can find a description of this upgrade here.
Note that it is difficult to find quality parts for this upgrade in the appropriate wire gauge sizes and that Daniel Stern will sell you all the needed pieces for $49. I would recommend going that way.

There are also a variety of H4 bulb housings available that will swap in place of the sealed beam. These vary widely in quality. The $40 Autopal headlights I own are crappy. The best I can say is that they do indeed house an H4 bulb. The worst I can say is that pattern sucks and with my 100watt bulbs, I cracked both housings due to heat within a week of install.

Cibie, Bosch and Hella all make superior housings that would, I hope, stand up to high power bulbs. Any of those three will provide superior pattern and cutoff. You get what you pay for. Daniel Stern is glad to advise and can sell you what you want.

This chart has been illuminating (hah!) for me. Cheat sheet: A 60/55 H4 bulb will output 1000 lumens. A 130w/90w H4 bulb will output 1820 lumens on low beam, and melt or crack a cheap housing.

Other options?

Truck-Lite has an LED 5x7 module. When introduced, these cost $500 per pair. They are now down to $390. These have no replaceable parts but are very durable. It has a 50,000 hour bulb life. Low beam output is 1,300 lumens per side, high beam output is 2,600 per side. Since they are LEDs, the draw is under 7.5 amps for both sides on high beam. No wiring upgrades needed.

HID retro fits come in a wide range of price, color and quality. Lumens output is around 3200. Due to the wide range of quality and even safety with these upgrades, as well as Daniel Stern's blanket "no HID retrofits" stance (which is good enough for me), I'm not going to talk about them. I invite anyone with metrics & tech to contribute to do so.

For most of us, halogens are the way to go.

With Autopal lights which I don't recommend, a headlight harness and a moderately sized bulb, total around $100, you can substantially upgrade your lights. With a 70/65 bulb you'll have 4,000 lumens on high beam and 2,700 on low. Easily twice and probably three or four times the output of factory stuff.
For $250 + tax & shipping, you can get cibies + a harness + 130watt bulbs. This is cheaper and brighter than Truck Lites LED module.

When you mention Autopals, are those the E-codes?

cruiser54 said:

When you mention Autopals, are those the E-codes?

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x2. Based on what you are saying my guess is no. If you are talking about E-codes, I'd be curious for some more information as to why the "GE Nighthawks are better than Autopals" Regardless, I think it's an important distinction to make in any posts going forward. Autopal makes DOT, E-code, and several complete garbage "crystal" housings, and everyone doesn't buy the same thing.

As a counterpoint to your experience with Autopals [unknown housing style], I run 100/80W H4 bulbs in Autopal E-code housings (as well as a relay harness). Have been for over a year and a half with lots of night driving, and have not melted (or damaged in any way) the housings. I would add that they have a sharper cutoff than the stock housings, although I am sure the higher dollar housings are even better.

They have also survived two front end collisions that damaged the headlight bezel, bucket, the header panel, and both blinkers/marker lights. While I'm not trying to call the housings bullet proof because of this, they did hold up in a situation where I would have expected "cheap crappy" housings to have cracked and broken.

Do you want to keep HID info out completely, or would you be OK with well implemented retrofits being presented? There are a few people who have good info on doing HID properly and safely but if you want to keep this halogen only I won't go find that info.

donthelegend said:

x2. Based on what you are saying my guess is no. If you are talking about E-codes, I'd be curious for some more information as to why the "GE Nighthawks are better than Autopals" Regardless, I think it's an important distinction to make in any posts going forward. Autopal makes DOT, E-code, and several complete garbage "crystal" housings, and everyone doesn't buy the same thing.

As a counterpoint to your experience with Autopals [unknown housing style], I run 100/80W H4 bulbs in Autopal E-code housings (as well as a relay harness). Have been for over a year and a half with lots of night driving, and have not melted (or damaged in any way) the housings. I would add that they have a sharper cutoff than the stock housings, although I am sure the higher dollar housings are even better.

They have also survived two front end collisions that damaged the headlight bezel, bucket, the header panel, and both blinkers/marker lights. While I'm not trying to call the housings bullet proof because of this, they did hold up in a situation where I would have expected "cheap crappy" housings to have cracked and broken.

Do you want to keep HID info out completely, or would you be OK with well implemented retrofits being presented? There are a few people who have good info on doing HID properly and safely but if you want to keep this halogen only I won't go find that info.

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I have experienced the same results with Autopal e-codes and 90/100 bulbs.

yossarian19 said:

Daniel Stern, a well respected vehicle lighting consultant, recomends the GE Nighthawk as the only cost effective direct replacement.

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I'm not understanding this. What do you mean by direct replacement? Stern also sells Cibies and I had purchased mine from him.

Note that it is difficult to find quality parts for this upgrade in the appropriate wire gauge sizes and that Daniel Stern will sell you all the needed pieces for $49. I would recommend going that way.

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Stern sells the relay blocks, block sockets, sockets, fuse holders and relays. I bought my stuff from him. I went with a 10 gauge wire, but I should have gotten something a bit more flexible as the wire got is pretty stiff.

Cibie, Bosch and Hella all make superior housings that would, I hope, stand up to high power bulbs. Any of those three will provide superior pattern and cutoff. You get what you pay for. Daniel Stern is glad to advise and can sell you what you want.

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I run 100/90w bulbs in mine and they have been fine for years.

Personally I run Cibies with an upgraded wiring harness and 100/90 w bulbs. I had IPFs previously and while they are a good lamp I personally like he Cibies better. Much better light distribution and sharper cutoff, but that is a personal preference. You can't go wrong with either one. The bulbs will burn out sooner than lower wattage bulbs but they are worth it. I have driven behind several OEM HID setups and I always prefer my setup.

One thing that I believe needs to be considered is protection for the expensive housings. I'm not talking about those wire mess rock guards. Several companies make a thick clear vinyl yo go over them. IIRC I purchased mine from Lamix. They are about 1/16" thick and still clear after all these years. They work. I run this style of protector on all my vehicles and family vehicles. We have never had a broken lens with them. On the plastic housing they also stop the yellowing of the lens.

I also run a pair of LightForce Strykers that come on with the high beams to illuminate the dark back roads.

donthelegend said:

Do you want to keep HID info out completely, or would you be OK with well implemented retrofits being presented?

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Personally I think it should be left out of this conversation. I have not seen a HID drop in that actually projects a decent pattern w/o glare to on coming traffic.

Good input, guys. If I ever knew Autopal made different housings, I forgot. I'm pretty sure mine were E-codes, bought on Ebay in 2008. They have never impressed me for quality and cracked almost immediately when I went 100/90. I recognize that others have had different results but maintain that the ones on my personal jeep are junk.

I meant "direct replacement" as "another 6054 bulb, NOT an h4 conversion, just a sealed beam 6054". The Nighthawk bulbs, as compared by Daniel Stern, throw a more usable pattern of light than "autopals", though neither he nor I specified which autopals we were talking about.

If we can find a well engineered HID kit that will fit in a Cherokee I'm open to it, but so far all I've seen has looked pretty questionable to me and I'd rather not clutter the thread with the inevitable flame war that comes with HID retro fitting. As an aside, all the HID kits that looked to me like they might be worth running were over $500. You can run high end H4 housings, harness & bulbs for that money & have some left over for auxiliary lights on a separate switch.

I am running Cibie lenses from Daniel Stern, with Oshram 55/100W H4 bulbs. I bought the wiring kit from Daniel as well.

For wire, I used SJOOW 12/2 wire. It can be found at home improvement centers. Basically, it is outdoor extension cord. It is great stuff, though. Extremely flexible, 3 wires jacketed. Water and oil resistant outer jacket, high (375 degree) temp.

The Cibie cutoff pattern is very nice - E Code, very clean horizontal cut. I don't have factual numbers, but the Cibie has a better pattern than my relatively old (6 years) Hella E Code lenses.

I know this is replacement headlights, but for aux lighting, I am going with Hella factory HIDs. I may, in a fit of crazy, figure out where to mount my 1970s Marchal 810 series lamps - 7 1/2" diameter 100W H2 bulbs. Amazing lights.

David Bricker / SYR - ELM

yossarian19 said:

Good input, guys. If I ever knew Autopal made different housings, I forgot. I'm pretty sure mine were E-codes, bought on Ebay in 2008. They have never impressed me for quality and cracked almost immediately when I went 100/90. I recognize that others have had different results but maintain that the ones on my personal jeep are junk.

I meant "direct replacement" as "another 6054 bulb, NOT an h4 conversion, just a sealed beam 6054". The Nighthawk bulbs, as compared by Daniel Stern, throw a more usable pattern of light than "autopals", though neither he nor I specified which autopals we were talking about.

If we can find a well engineered HID kit that will fit in a Cherokee I'm open to it, but so far all I've seen has looked pretty questionable to me and I'd rather not clutter the thread with the inevitable flame war that comes with HID retro fitting. As an aside, all the HID kits that looked to me like they might be worth running were over $500. You can run high end H4 housings, harness & bulbs for that money & have some left over for auxiliary lights on a separate switch.

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My Autopals are glass E-codes. They have a sharp cut-off and rival any Cibie or Hella I've ever had previously.

cruiser54 said:

My Autopals are glass E-codes. They have a sharp cut-off and rival any Cibie or Hella I've ever had previously.

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I can't speak for the Hella, but Cibie blows Autopals out of the water..... Cibie has a wider dispersion on both high and low. Cibie shines farther on high beams, and a sharper cut off on low. The low beam pattern on the Cibie shines closer to the front of the vehicle too.

Autopals= Ok for a wheeler that my get it's lights trashed and you don't want high dollar lamps in.

Cibie= A quality lamp for you driver (and or high speed truck) where you want to actually see where you're going...

i run hella DOT housings, ea autoworks harness and osram 85/80s and the output is fantastic. beam pattern is very good on low and great, even output on high. ive rode in jeep with autopal housings and the pattern they have isnt great imho.

Talyn said:

Personally I think it should be left out of this conversation. I have not seen a HID drop in that actually projects a decent pattern w/o glare to on coming traffic.

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I should probably clarify that I'm not talking about the HID kits that just happen to use an H4 bulb/base that you can put in a halogen housing, I'm talking about proper projector retrofits. I think I've only seen one drop in HID replacement that has projector housings. The other info I was referring to was DIY HID projector retrofits. Not anything approaching drop-in and costs >$500, but is a good way to do HID if you want to spend the money for it. And it's just as safe/non-blinding as any factory HID projector setup once aimed properly (which should be done regardless of what lights you run).

Anyway, I'll leave it out unless someone wants the info, but it is a safe way to get HID without blinding oncoming traffic.

scoobyxj said:

I can't speak for the Hella, but Cibie blows Autopals out of the water..... Cibie has a wider dispersion on both high and low. Cibie shines farther on high beams, and a sharper cut off on low. The low beam pattern on the Cibie shines closer to the front of the vehicle too.

Autopals= Ok for a wheeler that my get it's lights trashed and you don't want high dollar lamps in.

Cibie= A quality lamp for you driver (and or high speed truck) where you want to actually see where you're going...

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How come I can see way down the road and off to the sides real well in the rural area I live in without street lights and not blind oncoming drivers then?

Has anyone tried these adapters? They convert a H4 to D2S/D2R and provide a cutoff from the shield.

these would be interesting...

donthelegend said:

The other info I was referring to was DIY HID projector retrofits. Not anything approaching drop-in and costs >$500, but is a good way to do HID if you want to spend the money for it.

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That is the only way to properly do HID (or get the drop in housing with a HID projector, like UrbanYan). But even then I have seen people screw up the projector retrofit.

And it's just as safe/non-blinding as any factory HID projector setup once aimed properly (which should be done regardless of what lights you run).

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Yes, this is something that is over looked in many threads/installs. Aim them!

Anyway, I'll leave it out unless someone wants the info, but it is a safe way to get HID without blinding oncoming traffic.

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I know there are a few people on here running proper HID projectors. I wouldn't mind seeing the info on them and the build process, but its not my thread.

Boost_Retard said:

these would be interesting...

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For head lights? No. No focusing or anything.

I run Trucklite's LEDs in my DD, and JW Speaker's LED's in my Trail rig. Both put out phenomenal USEABLE light, and are street legal. I started this thread a while back, and included info about both.

http://www.naxja.org/forum/showthread.php?t=1082758&highlight=trucklite

Over the nine years, I have tried an assortment of headlights starting with GE Silverstars (OK but not much more light and short lifetimes).

The first major improvement anyone should make is an upgraded headlight harness. Made mine from 10-gauge wire along with 40-amp relays. This made a noticeable improvement with stock bulbs since the Factory wiring is way to small. Voltage at the headlights went from 11.5-volts (with the engine running a 13.4-volts at the battery terminals) to 13.2 -volts.

Next I tried the Autopal E-codes and wasn't happy with the pattern or paper thin shells. First week-long trip to Death Valley busted both of them, caused by bouncing gravel. They were a total waste of money.
They were replaced with IPF E-codes several years ago, along with Hellla 80-100-watts bulbs. On low beams, the pattern is good with a sharp cutoffs and they have a nice wide, bright high beam. The Hella bulbs have a normal color, not the blueish white that the blue-tinted bulbs have.
The IPF housings do have many small chips, from gravel, but have survived thousands of miles of dirt roads. They compare favorably when matched against friends Jeeps running Cibies and Hella housings.

lazyxj said:

Over the nine years, I have tried an assortment of headlights starting with GE Silverstars (OK but not much more light and short lifetimes).

The first major improvement anyone should make is an upgraded headlight harness. Made mine from 10-gauge wire along with 40-amp relays. This made a noticeable improvement with stock bulbs since the Factory wiring is way to small. Voltage at the headlights went from 11.5-volts (with the engine running a 13.4-volts at the battery terminals) to 13.2 -volts.

Next I tried the Autopal E-codes and wasn't happy with the pattern or paper thin shells. First week-long trip to Death Valley busted both of them, caused by bouncing gravel. They were a total waste of money.
They were replaced with IPF E-codes several years ago, along with Hellla 80-100-watts bulbs. On low beams, the pattern is good with a sharp cutoffs and they have a nice wide, bright high beam. The Hella bulbs have a normal color, not the blueish white that the blue-tinted bulbs have.
The IPF housings do have many small chips, from gravel, but have survived thousands of miles of dirt roads. They compare favorably when matched against friends Jeeps running Cibies and Hella housings.

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Harness first!!! Huge difference, eh?

cruiser54 said:

Harness first!!! Huge difference, eh?

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The Factory 18-gauge wiring just doesn't cut it, too much voltage drop.
The only one good thing about the Factory wiring is it leads to a long bulb life since the filament never gets too hot (or bright).

lazyxj said:

The Hella bulbs have a normal color, not the blueish white that the blue-tinted bulbs have.

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That a good point worth mentioning. Don't get any crappy coated bulbs. No matter what the company says it does or how cute you think they look that coating is reducing lumens.