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Water Wetter

ParadiseXJ

NAXJA Forum User
Anybody know what...and how...Water Wetter does.

My MJ is running just over 210 under load and speed in "not so hot" weather. Everythings been checked

I've already flushed & filled, replaced the cap, replaced the t-stat.

Radiator is ~2 yrs old, water pump too. Less than 2,000 miles on each.

I have a 97 10 blade e-fan...working fine, hose not collapsing, I have a ZJ HD fan clutch, less than 1 yr old...moves alot of air.

Is Water Wetter just snake oil...or am I missing something??

P.S. I swapped it over to OPEN cooling ~2 yrs ago (2,000 miles ago)
 
IDK, snake oil or what but I use it, can't hurt. Did it help, I don't have a overheating problem. I don't think it will fix a bad cooling system.
 
. I don't think it will fix a bad cooling system.

I understand that. I don't think the system is bad...but since my coolant is shiny clean, and the pieces and parts are all working and newish, no leaks, nothing obviously bad...I'm ready for anything that'll shave off 5-10 degrees. Especially since it's not even HOT yet...and I'm not running A/C at all.
 
Don't bother X2.... I do not see a mention of trying to bleed any air outta the system... With a RENIX setup even with converting to the open cooling system it is still best to "burp" the cooling system at the coolant sensor on the back drivers side of the motor right on the top next to the valve cover.. If you can get the rear of the Jeep a little higher so that the rear of the motor is the motors high point. That way the air will get to that sensor hole easier. All you have to do is loosen it a bit when the motor gets hot. You can tell when air vs. coolant is coming out...
 
Anybody know what...and how...Water Wetter does.

My MJ is running just over 210 under load and speed in "not so hot" weather. Everythings been checked

I've already flushed & filled, replaced the cap, replaced the t-stat.

Radiator is ~2 yrs old, water pump too. Less than 2,000 miles on each.

I have a 97 10 blade e-fan...working fine, hose not collapsing, I have a ZJ HD fan clutch, less than 1 yr old...moves alot of air.

Is Water Wetter just snake oil...or am I missing something??

P.S. I swapped it over to OPEN cooling ~2 yrs ago (2,000 miles ago)

Water Wetter is a concentrated surfactant, formulated to reduce the surface tension of water and allow it to make more thorough contact with the surfaces of the cooling jacket and radiator. This allows it to accept more heat from the engine and reject more heat from the radiator - both of which are helpful.

What's a "surfactant?" Consider soap (or any other detergent.)

When you use soap, you can get more crud off of your hands than just water alone, right? That's because the soap is a surfactant - by reducing the surface tension of water the water becomes "wetter" and is able to pick more up off the surface of your hands. The soap doesn't really make you any cleaner - it allows the water to make you cleaner (yes, there are additives in commercial soaps to fulfil other functions - antibacterials and fragrances come to mind - but classic "glycerine soap" is a surfactant - and that's it.)

What's surface tension, you ask? It's what allows the surface of a liquid form a barrier against evapouration (reducing it significantly, in some cases,) and is essentially a "permeable film" made of whatever the liquid is in the first place. It's also what allows a liquid to "maintain shape" - why does water form beads on a waxed surface? Surface tension of the water. An easy way to see the effects of surface tension?

- Get a common (clean) sewing needle, a clean fork, and a clean, broad, shallow bowl.
- Put water in the bowl - half full, say. Tap water will do just fine. Put the bowl on your table or counter, give it a minute for the surface to come to rest
- Cradle the needle on the tines of the fork, as close to the end as you can manage.
- GENTLY AND CAREFULLY use the fork to try to "set" the needle on the surface of the water (if you screw up, retrieve the needle and dry everything off. Then try again.)

If you do it right, you should literally be able to "float" the needle atop the water - this is due to the low weight of the needle, the low relative density of the needle, the smooth surface of the needle (no protrusions to break ST, either,) and the surface tension of the water! Use a small needle, it's less likely to break the ST of the water.

ADD'L - mix a few drops of dish soap with a bit of water. CAREFULLY pour it into the bowl where the needle is floating - if you add enough soap, the needle will sink. This demonstrates that soap/detergents reduce the surface tension of the water. The reduction of surface tension is relative to the final concentration of the soap - you can always add more. Just try to not disturb the surface of the water pouring it in, or you'll get a "false positive."

Does WW help? I've been using it pretty constantly for the last 18 years or so - what do you think?
 
Years ago, I had a similar problem with the temperature creeping up when running 80+ MPH. I tried water wetter but did not see a difference. What did make a difference was to reduce to amount of coolant in the system to about 30% coolant to 70% distilled water. Of course, this was a South Florida summer and I have/had no mechanical fan.

I used to own a 1994 XJ. Now I own 1996 model and have never bled the cooling system on any of them. If the cooling system is good, just fill/over fill the recovery tank and the system will self bleed (pass the air to the recovery tank) when the engine is hot and replace it with water when the engine cools. If your XJ is not doing that then you have a bad radiator cap, a leak in the hose between the radiator and recovery tank or a leak else where in the system.
 
A few things pop into mind that may be relevant. You have a tiny coolant leak that is bleeding off cooling system pressure.

I've had mine loose coolant up high in the system (top inside of the radiator passenger side end tank on two different XJ's) and go through cycles of the coolant boiling and eventually filling the top of the system with vapor. The vapor leaks faster than the coolant does and keeps the pressure below optimum. Depending on the mix and pressure, the coolant can boil around 240 and the temp sender may not be the hottest spot in the motor.

Or your motor is running too lean. Twice when my O2 sensor was going out, at certain RPM's usually around 1200 or so, the motor would run way lean and heat up.

It only takes one autumn to partially plug my radiator, the pollen is really thick around here. I also do a lot of driving in high grass. Every spring I back wash the radiator from the inside out with a garden hose and moderate pressure. It is sometimes amazing how much trash comes out of there. Stuff you really can't see stuck in the front of the radiator like bugs or grass seed.

I've usually found a layer of compost between the A/C condenser and the radiator also, when I've looked in there. Pollen is some nasty stuff, it actually makes an acid when it is decomposing. And sometimes gets wet and then dries into cement.

Be careful with the water pressure, you don't want to flatten the fins.
 
A few years ago I did a ground-up resto-mod of a '56 MGA. MGAs were/are notorious for overheating in hot climates, especially in stop-and-go traffic. I figure they were designed for English weather and roads of the 1950's, not for the sub-tropics. The guys in my local MG club raved about Water Wetter and distilled water. I started out the vehicle on a 50-50 mixture of Prestone and distilled water. The newly restored MGA overheated in slow traffic during the South Florida summer. I switched over to Water Wetter and distilled water. No overheating. It ran at 190 degrees. Go figure. Having said all that, XJs are not MGAs. The XJ cooling system design is good. Between my kids and I, our family has owned 4 XJs (95, 97, 99 and 00) over the past 10 years and I have maintained them. I've replaced radiators, water pumps, electric fans, thermostats and hoses in our XJs a they aged. But with properly functioning cooling system components, I have never experienced chronic overheating issues. So, yeah, I am a believer in Water Wetter, but my experience was vehicle-specific. I am also a believer in the basic design of the XJ cooling system.
 
Water Wetter is a concentrated surfactant... What's a "surfactant?" Consider soap (or any other detergent.)

What's surface tension, you ask?

I DO understand surfactant. I did not know WW is one. We used to put water skeeters (skimmers?) into a bucket and put one drop of Ivory soap in there...the 60's version of Dawn...they would flounder within seconds.

Does WW help? I've been using it pretty constantly for the last 18 years or so - what do you think?

Absolutely, for blasted SURE... maybe!! Whe you back up opinion with SCIENCE, you got my attention!

Years ago, I had a similar problem with the temperature creeping up when running 80+ MPH. I tried water wetter but did not see a difference. What did make a difference was to reduce to amount of coolant in the system to about 30% coolant to 70% distilled water. Of course, this was a South Florida summer and I have/had no mechanical fan.
First, I never run @ 80 mph. I agree with the 70/30 mix...we very rarely have a hard freeze here, so it sure makes sense for cooling. Our temps here go to 100-105 in June-August/September (but it's a dry heat)

A few things pop into mind that may be relevant. You have a tiny coolant leak that is bleeding off cooling system pressure.

Or your motor is running too lean.

The pollen is really thick around here. I also do a lot of driving in high grass. I've usually found a layer of compost between the A/C condenser and the radiator also, when I've looked in there. Pollen is some nasty stuff, it actually makes an acid when it is decomposing. And sometimes gets wet and then dries into cement.

Be careful with the water pressure, you don't want to flatten the fins.
Mixture:
I wish I was running lean...I'm pulling down about 16 mpg overall. It's amazing how much gas I use compared to my Nissan.
Leakage:
When I was cleaning off my t-stat housing there is a small crack on the outside of the housing. The crack does NOT go all the way thru. There is no evident leak. I was trying to think how it could release that "tiny" bit of pressure with out emitting or osmosing some coolant. I have another housing that I may put on, but like I said...no APPARENT leakage.
Blockage:
We got pollen, loads of it, pine and oak...in the spring, but other than that it's all rocks, gravel and dirt around here. I don't do much bushwhackin'. I wash that crap out of the radiator area "after every meal".
One other thing:
I KNOW I have an exhaust leak. When I seafoamed the intake I got alot of smoke INSIDE the engine bay...and it's pretty loud. I read "on another forum" that hot exhaust blowing onto the block can overheat the block...locally. Just an idea.

Thank you all for your information. I think I needed a new perspective.
 
Jjust above 210? What is the problem?
verified with a ir gauge?

You have heard that the gauges are calibrated using a magnet with hot glue, correct?
Mech fan clutch in good shape?
 
210+ is not optimum. I want optimum. So I search for a solution.

No, I've not used an IR gun. I'm an optimist. I expect s**t to work properly. The gauge runs just under 210 on the freeway at 70 mph in 80+ degree weather. That part is fine.

Once I hit the big hill, on a 2 lane road, the temp starts rising. I shift to 3rd. Nothin'. I turn on the e-fan, zilch. When I get to town and slow down, up and down minor hills, residential streets, it's back down to under 210.

My mech fan is a virtual hurricane under the hood. When I turn on the e-fan it's a torrent of air.
 
hey guys greetings from mexico, if you really want to forget about temperature rising use electric fans from a 2000 malibu yes they do work, i had the same issue did everything water pump, rad, t-stat, HD fan clutch till a got these fans now temp never passes half of gauge witch A/C consider that down here gets at 40 to 50degrees celsius
 
I'm a (retired) refrigeration tech. I break everything down into events. You have 1 air flow, 2 surface area of the heat exchanger, 3 engine heat, 4 coolant flow. I'm sure there are some other factors also.

1. You can use brute force (bigger fans) to force more air through the heat exchanger. Or vent the engine bay better.

2. Add a three row radiator or tweek the system a little. like replacing as much rubber tubing as possible with copper. Finned copper, aluminum or stainless would be even better.

3. Run high octane fuel and/or richen up the motor a little or retard ignition.

4. Run a 180 thermostat or a high flow water pump. Or try a better coolant, to stay on thread.

1. the engine bay is full in the 4.0 and air doesn't flow through there well. Bigger or better fans are an option. But to my way of thinking at 30 MPH or above the fans mostly get in the way of air flow, they really don't help much and mostly just make turbulence. There has to be a better way to vent without installing hood vents that let the rain in. Venting at the rear of the hood is unlikely to be efficient, there is positive pressure in front of the windshield, especially at speed.

2, A three row radiator is an option, but space and clearance are a real factor without some serious modifications. And adding another row will not increase cooling by 33%, more likely half that because the differential between the amount of heat and the ambient air temp. over the entire heat exchange area is also a factor.

3. No real way to adjust timing, though you could richen it up by fooling the engine temperature ECU sensor.

4. High flow pump or 180 thermostat may work out for you (it is a stock Jeep offering as a severe service option. But like a high volume pump it may also backfire, either no change or it can get worse. The amount of time the coolant stays in the radiator (and the volume) also has a bearing on how much heat it can shed. Actually two ways, it does take time to shed the heat and it really only sheds heat in the outer portion of the flow stream. Or in other words the more turbulence you have inside the radiator (heat exchanger) the better it is going to function and shed heat.

It is a system, a series of events, a closed loop, a pizz poor, primitive system that you can tweek so far out of the envelope it ceases to function as designed.

The most bang for the buck IMO is likely to vent the engine bay, figuring out how to do it without making an opening the water gets into. The best way to vent at speed is too make an open 90 degrees to the air flow, like blowing across the top of a coke bottle.

I do a lot of slow speed driving cruising through my hunting lease. The aux fan comes on and I've noticed when I walk around in front of the Jeep that I can actually feel some hot air coming out of the mechanical fan side of the radiator. The air flow through the engine bay seems to be seriously constipated :).

An Aux tranny cooler is going to help get some heat out of the radiator, but can cause issues in extreme cold. The tranny cooler inside the radiator may also help to heat up the fluid in extreme cold.

Something nobody ever talks about, mainly because the oil pump in the 4.0 is kind of marginal IMO, is an engine oil cooler. If you can find one with a 180 thermostat and maybe install a high volume oil pump at the same time, it would likely help with the heat problems most XJ's have. Where I live there are no speed limits on the interstate (autobahn), all my freeway fliers have had an engine oil cooler installed. Synthetic oil and an oil cooler, with a thermostat works well. I keep my XJ's under a 100 MPH, so I've never really needed an engine oil cooler, it rarely gets that hot here anyway.

Sorry about the rant, I've given it a lot of thought.;)
 
The engine bay is full in the 4.0 and air doesn't flow through there well. ... But to my way of thinking at 30 MPH or above the fans mostly get in the way of air flow ...
...vent the engine bay...
The air flow through the engine bay seems to be seriously constipated :).

An Aux tranny cooler is going to help get some heat out of the radiator...

Sorry if it seems like I chopped up your reply. I'm not trying to skew things out of context, just hitting on some major issues that I've also pondered on.

Air Flow:
I agree that there is a possibility that having the e-fan on at 60 mph or a torrential fan clutch whirring away MIGHT actually retard smooth end to end air flow. My Nissan fans do not come on at all unless the temp is over 190 OR the A/C or defrost is on. Flow depends on road/air speed. If I'm slow n' go, the e-fan comes on triggered by temp alone (there is no mech fan) and it quickly reduces the temp.

So in the Jeep, when the mech fan is turning and I'm going 65 there should be ample air flow. But, for example, if the fan is creating a 60 MPH wind and I'm going 60 mph, the breeze is not going at 120 mph, so the fan may be moot at speed, especially the with addition of the "upgraded" e-fan.

Tranny cooler:
I have a Hayden HD trans cooler. It covers most of the driver side half of the radiator. The radiator heat excahnger is bypassed because we rarely get extreme cold temps around here (like, 25F is super rare). So although I may be taking heat away from the tranny, it seems I may be ADDING it to the radiator as the air passes through it and on to the rad. I've thought about moving the cooler to the stock front skid, ventilated with another fan so the cooler is completely separate of the radiator.

So, there my rant for today...gotta go to work.
I do have hood vents, I have the factory skid and no air dam...and I have the fan shrouds in place
 
What did make a difference was to reduce to amount of coolant in the system to about 30% coolant to 70% distilled water.

THIS.

50/50 is a GREAT anti-freeze mix--unless you live where it is STUPID cold.

30/70 is a GREAT summer coolant mix.

Water boils at 212 F at sea level. Coolant raises the boiling point of water. Pressure raises the boiling point of water.

Water is the best, but we want to raise its boiling point, so add coolant, and to raise that boiling point even higher pressurize the system.

Now--your system may have a build up of scale that is inhibiting heat transfer. Try a "radiator cleaner"--not a flush--the kind of stuff you put in the system and drive it for extended miles or hours, then neutralize it and put in fresh 30/70 mix for the summer months.
 
I have used water wetter with some limited success. maybe a 3-5 F drop. It works by increasing coolant flow close to the boundary layer, by reducing the surface tension of the fluid at the solid liquid interface. Think of honey versus water flow. Think of it in terms of reduced viscosity at the liquid solid surface boundary. It works, and works better with high water concentration formulas. 50:50 mix already has some surfactants in it. Pure water has none, so it works great in pure water versus just pure water.

I tried every trick in the book, and all the ones not in the book.

Then I discovered a small donut leak, the donut was toast, no way it could seal, at the flange on mine when swapping out the AW4. New donut and now it idles in drive with AC on Max for 60 minutes in 105 F heat waves, 100% humidity and never gets over 205 F at the T-Stat.

OP Qoute:
I KNOW I have an exhaust leak. When I seafoamed the intake I got alot of smoke INSIDE the engine bay...and it's pretty loud. I read "on another forum" that hot exhaust blowing onto the block can overheat the block...locally. Just an idea.


So fix the exhaust leaks!!!!!
:twak:

You read it here in several of my posts, LMAO!!!:laugh3:

Mine dropped from 235-240F at the T-stat to 205 F at the T-state by replacing a $1.50 donut!!!!:cheers:

The cheapest, easiest most overlooked fix out there!!!!
 
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Pure water does not lubricate the seals, it causes rapid corrosion, and has no leak sealing ability. Antifreeze has water wetting surfactants (some, not as good as water wetter has), seal lubricants, leak sealer additives, and has anti corrosion rust inhibitors in the formulas and an easy to see dye for leak detection.
 
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I DO understand surfactant. I did not know WW is one. We used to put water skeeters (skimmers?) into a bucket and put one drop of Ivory soap in there...the 60's version of Dawn...they would flounder within seconds.



Absolutely, for blasted SURE... maybe!! Whe you back up opinion with SCIENCE, you got my attention!


First, I never run @ 80 mph. I agree with the 70/30 mix...we very rarely have a hard freeze here, so it sure makes sense for cooling. Our temps here go to 100-105 in June-August/September (but it's a dry heat)


Mixture:
I wish I was running lean...I'm pulling down about 16 mpg overall. It's amazing how much gas I use compared to my Nissan.
Leakage:
When I was cleaning off my t-stat housing there is a small crack on the outside of the housing. The crack does NOT go all the way thru. There is no evident leak. I was trying to think how it could release that "tiny" bit of pressure with out emitting or osmosing some coolant. I have another housing that I may put on, but like I said...no APPARENT leakage.
Blockage:
We got pollen, loads of it, pine and oak...in the spring, but other than that it's all rocks, gravel and dirt around here. I don't do much bushwhackin'. I wash that crap out of the radiator area "after every meal".
One other thing:
I KNOW I have an exhaust leak. When I seafoamed the intake I got alot of smoke INSIDE the engine bay...and it's pretty loud. I read "on another forum" that hot exhaust blowing onto the block can overheat the block...locally. Just an idea.

Thank you all for your information. I think I needed a new perspective.

I tend to explain at a novice level - not necessarily for the person asking the question (you may know more than I need to explain,) but for the next man who might come across it and not know as much as we do.

The bugs? We always called 'em "water striders" or "water skeeters." I think the former is their official English (non-taxonomic) name, but I know what you're talking about. Looked like a cross between a mosquito and a dragonfly in the body, with the legs of a daddy longlegs, right? Used to do the same thing to them when I was a kid in the 70s.

As far as "backing up opinions with science," I generally try to do so. If an opinion doesn't have some basis in fact, it's invalid (which fact really throws people when I say something like "I don't know enough to form an opinion yet" or "you don't know anything about the subject, you're not entitled to hold an opinion on it.")
 
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