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Front camber angle, offset balljoints?

G

GoBlue

NAXJA Forum User
Location
Southern MN
I just had my Jeep aligned and everything was in spec except the right side. The camber was .92 degrees (range is .75 -.50). My ball joints are brand new spicer brand. The tech said I should get an offset BJ (about 1 degree) and that should fix it. How does that happen on a solid axle?

More importantly, is the .25~ or so that its off enough to wear on my tires? Ill be putting the 31" General AT2's on there. Is the techs advice correct, and where do I get the BJ?

Info:
2000 XJ, 3.5" RE lift, Upper and Lower RE control arms, RE trackbar, Etc.

Thanks!
 
GoBlue said:
How does that happen on a solid axle?
Click to expand...

It a geometry problem. When you lift a vehicle with shortarms, the affect is the same as if you let the suspension droop X amount of inches.
The axle will rotate to retain the pinion to driveshaft angle, however, because caster, and camber are fixed and set for a stock height suspension, when the axle rotates, the caster and camber change.

Though adjustable ball joints are an option and would help retain the driveshaft/pinion relationship...
Adjustable control arms to push the bottom forward would help.
Drop Brackets to relocate the Upper and Lower control arms work also.
 
Thank you! This is what I was looking for. I actually do have adjustable upper and lower control arms, they are the shorter RE ones. So, since the "inner c" (btw, took me forever to figure out what that was) angle is fixed for stock, all I will need to do is turn the bottom CA forward, to make it longer, right? I assume I need to adjust the upper CA the opposite direction to pull it evenly? Thanks again, I dont know why but this was a "lightbulb" moment.

WB9YZU said:
It a geometry problem. When you lift a vehicle with shortarms, the affect is the same as if you let the suspension droop X amount of inches.
The axle will rotate to retain the pinion to driveshaft angle, however, because caster, and camber are fixed and set for a stock height suspension, when the axle rotates, the caster and camber change.

Though adjustable ball joints are an option and would help retain the driveshaft/pinion relationship...
Adjustable control arms to push the bottom forward would help.
Drop Brackets to relocate the Upper and Lower control arms work also.
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
Camber does not change with lift. It is set by the inner C's. Only caster changes with lift, but the toe should be checked frequently. Changing the length of the control arms only changes Caster and pinion angle.
 
So heres my alignment sheet. The right side is what Im concerned about, though its not much. Now that I know about the geometry problem, I think I can fix it.

The left side is apparently within spec, but how can the actual be so much less than the specified range for camber? Is that good?

mail.jpg
 
The offset balljoints are only $80 each. Cheaper than a set of 31" tires.
 
GoBlue said:
So heres my alignment sheet. The right side is what Im concerned about, though its not much. Now that I know about the geometry problem, I think I can fix it.

The left side is apparently within spec, but how can the actual be so much less than the specified range for camber? Is that good?

Because a control arm only changes caster, do I still want to get a offset balljoint for this amount of change?

mail.jpg
Click to expand...
 
You cannot fix it by adjusting the control arms. That only tilts the front to rear axis of the ball joints. Camber, the side to side tilt of the ball joints is set by the c's It's only out by .17 degrees on the right. Seems to be me like that would be okay as long as it's driving right, but I can't say with any experience.
 
Thanks, I was typing that last one while you posted, so didnt see it right away.

If I were to get the BJ, would I likely go with the 1 degree, and is that upper only?

I also really have a bad bearing/ hub assembly (hums)... could that throw anything off?
 
I'd fix the hub first. They shouldn't have aligned it with a bad hub, IMHO. Make them recheck it after the hub is replaced. It is only off by a small amount. Not knowing the precision of their measurements, I'd take a chance on not fixing it. Is their machine capable of +/- .01 degree measurements? I wonder. Were your tires inflated to the same pressure on each side. Are they worn the same?
 
They may have found out about the bearing while on the test drive. Anyway, the tires i used were crap. I had HUGE outer wear (on both, more the right) probably because of the toe measurement. They probably weren't inflated evenly, I gave up after a while (which I regret) and just risked dying from a blowout. This is probably why i have bad bearings. Im about to put new expensive tires on, and finally stopped procrastinating.

The tech said the same about tire wear, "as long as I rotate them Ill be fine" but he did mention the offset ball joint, which is good. However, knowing that the hub could potentially change things, I would have liked to hear him say that.
 
If thats so, then I will likely go back after I have replaced it, probably both, and have them recheck.

You know, they quoted me $200 per hub +$110 per side after the fact. This is all kind of unraveling.

souske said:
A bad hub could easily explain that amount of variance.
Click to expand...
 
GoBlue, don't worry, if you have no tools, you can buy them and stull come in under budget .
Go grab you PB and hose down the 36mm stub nut, then hose the 3 13mm blots from both sides, as well as the hub mating surface, repeat every 12-24 hours. Then check rockauto, or another online parts place.
 
souske said:
GoBlue, don't worry, if you have no tools, you can buy them and stull come in under budget .
Go grab you PB and hose down the 36mm stub nut, then hose the 3 13mm blots from both sides, as well as the hub mating surface, repeat every 12-24 hours. Then check rockauto, or another online parts place.
Click to expand...

Hey thanks for the help, but I just did my ball joints, so I can pretty much do this blind folded at this point. The coolest trick I found was popping the hub out with a 3/4" socket extension. Funny though, my 3 knuckle bolts were so rusty I pounded a 12mm 12 point socket on there with a hammer, might have been 13mm, but it went on anyway.

I just ordered a pair of hubs for like 180. There are variations so I spent the last hour reading so I bought the right ones. Got the timken brand, so theres no questioning quality. Hoping this fixes my problems, then Ill finally have reliability.
 
Last edited:
Fred said:
Camber does not change with lift. It is set by the inner C's. Only caster changes with lift, but the toe should be checked frequently. Changing the length of the control arms only changes Caster and pinion angle.
Click to expand...

That doesn't ring true. Caster, Camber, and Toe-In ALL change when you lift a vehicle with short arms.

Camber (The angle the tires are pointed in or out based on a vertical centerline) is fixed at the factory. When you rotate the axle, the Camber changes because the centerline changed.

Caster (The angle the knuckles are rotated forward or back based on a vertical centerline) also changes (Same reason, the centerline changed)

Both these can be changed by adjusting the lower arms out and the upper arms in. This will rotate the axle back towards it's factory orientation.

@ GoBlue: You had a bad hub and had it aligned :dunce: LOL!
That would account for the side to side variance. The cheapest I have found a hub was a few years back @ NAPA for $60. It wasn't their brand name, but it is still in service. I guess what I'm saying is to shop around.
 
WB9YZU said:
That doesn't ring true. Caster, Camber, and Toe-In ALL change when you lift a vehicle with short arms.

Camber (The angle the tires are pointed in or out based on a vertical centerline) is fixed at the factory. When you rotate the axle, the Camber changes because the centerline changed.

Caster (The angle the knuckles are rotated forward or back based on a vertical centerline) also changes (Same reason, the centerline changed)

Both these can be changed by adjusting the lower arms out and the upper arms in. This will rotate the axle back towards it's factory orientation.

@ GoBlue: You had a bad hub and had it aligned :dunce: LOL!
That would account for the side to side variance. The cheapest I have found a hub was a few years back @ NAPA for $60. It wasn't their brand name, but it is still in service. I guess what I'm saying is to shop around.
Click to expand...

Im glad were back to this camber question... So since the axle is rotated, what your saying is that the "c" is not straight, or 90 degrees up and down. To me it seems the only way it would affect camber is if the "c" is angled out a little. If its perfectly vertical from the factory, it shouldnt cause a change when rotated.

Also, yeah it was not a good decision to align it I suppose. Will it need aligning when I have them both replaced? I ordered direct OEM replacements . Cost around $160 after shopping around.
 
With camber, you are correct. If the C's were truely 100% vertical (0.00 degrees camber), then it would not change when rotated. Since this is not true, when you lift the vehicle it becomes exponentially worse. Some cases less than others. Out of the 8 or so cherokee I've aligned, none of them had perfect camber. None.

If it's really that worth it to you, go ahead with the balljoints. Of course get the hubs done first and re-check. I know my front camber is off pretty hard on my left front, so I just rotate my tires religiously every 2500 miles. If the edges start feathering more than my liking, I'll dismount all 4 and flip them (No white lettering :) )
 
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