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Renix 4.0l knocking at start up and high rpms

Renegade XJ

NAXJA Forum User
Location
corona ca
Hi guys, I have an '89 4.0 with 210k. They guy I bought it from had just re-done the "top-end" at about 190k. However since the day I got it, it knocks for just about 2sec.'s at cold start up like it's starving for oil. It has great oil pressure at idle and while driving, but at higher rpm's (above 3500) I can start hearing that knock again too.

Now along with the purchase of the XJ, included was also a Felpro gasget set, rear main seal, and an oil sending unit. This leads me to think that perhaps that's the issue? Any thoughts before I drop the pan and go through the mess of replacing the sending unit?
 
the exhaust manifold on those develop cracks and sound like an internal knock. I know this from experience, swaped out a motor to notice the cracks in the exhaust as I was putting it back together.
 
Oh how tired we get. You meant before you drop the pan and go through the mess of replacing the crankshaft rear main seal, right? If you are looking to replace the sending unit in there.., well, lol, good luck.

You think that the gasket set, etc., are part of the issue? Hmmm.., you said he had done the head job.., maybe he lied, or you misunderstood him, i.e., it should have.., and here's a clue for you to find included in the deal... If the set is complete, it would have a head gasket, as well as oil pan, intake/exhaust gasket, etc., but not an oil sending unit. If incomplete, it would be missing some of the above, showing possibly what work was done.

So, just what sound do you get.., tapping, or a hammering sound. Have you used a stick, or stethoscope to determine if the sound is in the upper area, or lower area of your engine? Best way with a stick, is to place one end on your engine, (different areas to inspect), and the other held up with say your left hand, onto the back of your ear, on the mastoid bone, and with the other hand plug your opposite ear canal with one of your right hand's finger. So, you will be holding the stick with your left hand, and with a little finess manage to also plug up your left ear's canal with one of your left hand's finger. With both ears plugged up, (you could use foam ear plugs too), with one end of the stick on the engine, and the other end to your ear bone you will dramatically pin point the area of unusual noise, and that noise will rattle around inside of your brain pan enough to ascertain whether it's your lower, or upper side problem.

Before you drop your oil pan, have some plastigauge handy to mic your main bearings once pan is away. I've never had it happen to me, but sometimes the wrist pin wollows out it's bore through the piston/rod connection. I've heard that condition as "Piston Slap", but don't know what that sounds like, other than 'slap'. On the bottom end of the rod, i.e., the bearing cap, the plastigauge will determine if there is looseness therein, and that condition is going to give you a hammering knock as such a loose rod around the crank will do. Bent rods can do the same I have been told.., but that's just heresay to me. Anyway, with the plastigauge kit you will be able to find out if you have a bearing problem, or not. Might as well since you will have the oil pan removed.

I've had bad push rod tappets, solid lifters, hydraulic lifters when dirty, losing charge, or near-dead give a loud tapping sound on cold starts and at high speed. My old 258 Cherokee engine did that once at 75 mph, and was LOUD. Had some STP with me, and that plus driving slower cleared it up for awhile, but replaced them all, problem gone.

People sell vehicles for a reason, lol, with problems to be discovered by us poor servants in obamasama land. Well, that's not to fair of me to unload on that crock, as many people just pass on their problems to others. Did you know that in the old days some would put sawdust in bad manual transmissions in order to make a sweet deal to good to pass up? Hell, with XJ's I guess that's not to much in vogue these days, lol, as they all seem to have issues. "XJ for sale"--such a popular 4X4.., sure want one.., so one does, and it's a freak'in costly project. Welcome to the nightmare, 'er daymare as well.

I am uncertain about the 4.0 engine, but with older engines with high mileages, when one did a cylinder head job, it was prudent to replace all rings, as well as all rod bearings. However, some remark that the 4.0 can go further before that's necessary. Unless tolerances and metallurgy is vastly different.., I still do not believe you can do one without the other. A new head job will contain tighter pressures than the older parts can meet. Could be why the previous owner rid his developing problem created from mating a fresh head to a worn engine. Hence your problem now.

Sans crankshaft line boring, I've done engines in place, i.e., removing head, droping oil pan, removing rods, and pistons, some from below, some from above, and resurfaced cylinder bores, resurfaced valve seats by hand, reinstalled every thing fresh, and wa-la. Clean, clean, clean is the mantra. Tedious, but satisfying. My better engines came out when I sent out the block for oil/coolent boiling flush, line bore, head to a head shop, new springs, etc., new crank shaft, rods, pistons, etc., and thusly put back together on my time. Gives time to paint stuff while waiting on this and that, and replacing anything broken, i.e, manifolds, studs, shrouds, electrical repairs, throwout bearing/clutch/pressure plate installations, etc.

So, if things have not gone too far into the negative side, you are in a good position to make it back to the positive side with your 4.0 with minimal work. LOL, I think!

However, I defer to experts on the 4.0 here, as I've yet to experience it's bowels. Really! It is still mysterious to me, lol: When I got this new to me '89.., lol, the first thing I did was to grab my Buck Roger's timming light to check timming only to find out some French computer thingy, (ECU), controlled all of that. Pissed me off. Oh well...
 
Oh how tired we get. You meant before you drop the pan and go through the mess of replacing the crankshaft rear main seal, right? If you are looking to replace the sending unit in there.., well, lol, good luck.

You think that the gasket set, etc., are part of the issue? Hmmm.., you said he had done the head job.., maybe he lied, or you misunderstood him, i.e., it should have.., and here's a clue for you to find included in the deal... If the set is complete, it would have a head gasket, as well as oil pan, intake/exhaust gasket, etc., but not an oil sending unit. If incomplete, it would be missing some of the above, showing possibly what work was done.

So, just what sound do you get.., tapping, or a hammering sound. Have you used a stick, or stethoscope to determine if the sound is in the upper area, or lower area of your engine? Best way with a stick, is to place one end on your engine, (different areas to inspect), and the other held up with say your left hand, onto the back of your ear, on the mastoid bone, and with the other hand plug your opposite ear canal with one of your right hand's finger. So, you will be holding the stick with your left hand, and with a little finess manage to also plug up your left ear's canal with one of your left hand's finger. With both ears plugged up, (you could use foam ear plugs too), with one end of the stick on the engine, and the other end to your ear bone you will dramatically pin point the area of unusual noise, and that noise will rattle around inside of your brain pan enough to ascertain whether it's your lower, or upper side problem.

Before you drop your oil pan, have some plastigauge handy to mic your main bearings once pan is away. I've never had it happen to me, but sometimes the wrist pin wollows out it's bore through the piston/rod connection. I've heard that condition as "Piston Slap", but don't know what that sounds like, other than 'slap'. On the bottom end of the rod, i.e., the bearing cap, the plastigauge will determine if there is looseness therein, and that condition is going to give you a hammering knock as such a loose rod around the crank will do. Bent rods can do the same I have been told.., but that's just heresay to me. Anyway, with the plastigauge kit you will be able to find out if you have a bearing problem, or not. Might as well since you will have the oil pan removed.

I've had bad push rod tappets, solid lifters, hydraulic lifters when dirty, losing charge, or near-dead give a loud tapping sound on cold starts and at high speed. My old 258 Cherokee engine did that once at 75 mph, and was LOUD. Had some STP with me, and that plus driving slower cleared it up for awhile, but replaced them all, problem gone.

People sell vehicles for a reason, lol, with problems to be discovered by us poor servants in obamasama land. Well, that's not to fair of me to unload on that crock, as many people just pass on their problems to others. Did you know that in the old days some would put sawdust in bad manual transmissions in order to make a sweet deal to good to pass up? Hell, with XJ's I guess that's not to much in vogue these days, lol, as they all seem to have issues. "XJ for sale"--such a popular 4X4.., sure want one.., so one does, and it's a freak'in costly project. Welcome to the nightmare, 'er daymare as well.

I am uncertain about the 4.0 engine, but with older engines with high mileages, when one did a cylinder head job, it was prudent to replace all rings, as well as all rod bearings. However, some remark that the 4.0 can go further before that's necessary. Unless tolerances and metallurgy is vastly different.., I still do not believe you can do one without the other. A new head job will contain tighter pressures than the older parts can meet. Could be why the previous owner rid his developing problem created from mating a fresh head to a worn engine. Hence your problem now.

Sans crankshaft line boring, I've done engines in place, i.e., removing head, droping oil pan, removing rods, and pistons, some from below, some from above, and resurfaced cylinder bores, resurfaced valve seats by hand, reinstalled every thing fresh, and wa-la. Clean, clean, clean is the mantra. Tedious, but satisfying. My better engines came out when I sent out the block for oil/coolent boiling flush, line bore, head to a head shop, new springs, etc., new crank shaft, rods, pistons, etc., and thusly put back together on my time. Gives time to paint stuff while waiting on this and that, and replacing anything broken, i.e, manifolds, studs, shrouds, electrical repairs, throwout bearing/clutch/pressure plate installations, etc.

So, if things have not gone too far into the negative side, you are in a good position to make it back to the positive side with your 4.0 with minimal work. LOL, I think!

However, I defer to experts on the 4.0 here, as I've yet to experience it's bowels. Really! It is still mysterious to me, lol: When I got this new to me '89.., lol, the first thing I did was to grab my Buck Roger's timming light to check timming only to find out some French computer thingy, (ECU), controlled all of that. Pissed me off. Oh well...


Perhaps Im misunderstanding everything you posted up, or perhaps the fact that I accently posted "FELPRO GASKET SET" threw you off. It was not a "set" It was just the oil pan gasket, rear main seal, and oil sending unit. I dont think that the SEAL is part of the issue. What I mean is that those parts lead me to believe he was going to change that next.

When doing the "top-end" I would assume that means adjusting the lifters (if they are adjustable, I am not one that knows much of the internals of the 4.0 or engine building in general. I grew up learning how to work on axles,and transfer cases, but never did any internal engine work)

The sound is like a Clatter, sounds like lifters to me but I keep telling myself its not.

I run 5-30w Mobil 1 in it with a WIX filter. I have also tried using regular 5-30w Napa Gold oil in it with no change in the results.
 
Here is a video of it, kinda hard to hear it because it is so quick. Its right around the 7-9sec mark. Im going to do the stick thing with a friend tomorrow as I can get it to make the same sound at higher RPM's

http://youtu.be/shLioDk7c2A

Also, its not just a cold start up now that I tried it. I started it the first time. It made the sound. It ran for 15sec. Shut it off, waited a min. started it again, no sound. Looks like it only does it if it has been sitting long period of time. Perhaps just an oil drain back problem?!?! I had this issue with Mopar and WIX filters on my JK, but that was a known problem on all JK's. I have never had a drain back issue on any other 4.0L that I have had.....?

However that doesnt explain the higher rpm clatter
 
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I'm beginning to think by your new description, of a 'clattering', that you have lifter problems. Try some STP, or some such, and see if that minimizes the sound. IF it does, then it's probably your lifters. Again, use a device to listen to the occurrence, on both sides of the head above engine block. To make sure, listen too, in a few places on the lower engine block to be certain the sound is not coming from below the head.

I'm on dial-up in Alaska, so I can not help you by listening to your posted video link. Just takes too long to buffer. I would think others on this site will be able to give you a sure diagnosis once they listen. Maybe-- Kevinma255-- will be able to tell the difference from his long ago problem against your new one, or others when they chime in.
 
Im doing more and more research on the web and things are pointing towards the lifters. Kinda makes me wonder what work was done to the "top end". If they pulled the head they should have put a new cam and lifters in it while they were at it. Ugg. I think Im still going to tare into it and replace the oil sending unit just because I have also been reading alot they they should be replaced around 150k, so I dont want to risk anything, and I have to change the oil anyway.
 
So, you're replacing the oil pressure sending unit? I don't understand how that will do anything except maybe give you different readings at your gauge (if the existing one is faulty). Am I missing something?
 
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