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I put GL5 in my AX15. What to do?

HQuakers

NAXJA Forum User
Location
South Jersey
I did a transmission fluid change this weekend in my AX15 and put in a GL5 oil because that's what my old FSM said to do. I didn't realize that the GL5 was a no-no until I researched it on here. I just placed an order for some Red Line MT90 GL4 and should be here this week.

My question is what should I do when it comes time to change out the GL5? Should I put something else in there between the GL5 oil and the GL4 oil to ensure most the the GL5 is gone, or would a simple drain/fill suffice? :dunno:

Thanks.
 
Synthetic GL-5, or dead dinosaurs?

If it's synthetic, you're probably all right - most synthetic GL-5 gear oils don't use sulphur-based EP lubes, and are therefore safe for use with Yellow Metals (copper & copper alloys - sulphur solutions are antagonistic to copper.) Check the label if you used a synthetic.

Dead dinosaurs? Drain & replace at your first convenience. Dead dinosaur GL-5 almost invariably will use sulphur-based EP lubes, and they can literally dissolve the synchroniser rings (sintered bronze) in the AX-15 and other gearboxen that use them. (GL-5 is fine in the Peugeot because there isn't even a speck of bronze in the case. The synchroniser rings are aluminum, the bearings are steel, and I don't recall seeing any bushings in there.)

GL-3 is the preferred lubricant for AX-15 transmissions - when it comes to dead dinosaurs. GL-4 may be used in the short term (relatively low concentration of sulphur,) while GL-5 should be avoided.

As mentioned, most "performance synthetic" gear lubes will not use sulphur-based compounds for EP lubes, so they'll be just fine in the AX-15 (and other gearboxen using bronze synchro rings - which includes nearly all of the better vintage gearboxen. Some newer five- and six-speeds will call for a special synthetic oil - the NV4500 and NV5600 are good examples of this, as is - I believe - the NSG370 six-speed.) Check the label.

Also note that, in a pinch, engine oil may be used in a manual gearbox without ill effect. An old hot-rodder's trick is to drain the 80W-90 out of a Muncie and refill it with 10W-30 engine oil to reduce pumping drag, it can net you a couple of additional horsepower (which can make a difference on the track!) Use 10W-30 - if the MT90 won't be in anytime soon, drain the GL-5 out of the gearbox and replace with 10W-30 until it gets there (any API service spec will work, since engine oils don't use sulphur lubes and the organometallic antiscuff additive concentration isn't an issue for the gearbox.)

The conflict with using GL-5 in the AX-15 comes from the sulphur-based EP lubes and the use of bronze for the synchroniser rings - the sulphur, as I mentioned, is antagonistic to the copper in the bronze alloy, and will literally dissolve the synchroniser rings. However, this doesn't necessarily make the gearbox unusable - just makes it unsynchronised. Gearboxen used in heavy-duty trucks are often unsynchronised, which simply means that truck drivers are taught double-clutching to shift gears smoothly (if you've ever driven a very old manual transmission vehicle, you've probably learned to double-clutch as well.) Double-clutching will be necessary until you can overhaul the gearbox and replace the synchroniser rings. It's usually obvious when the wrong oil was used for the last topoff when you drain - the "gold glitter" you see in the oil is the dissolved bronze synchroniser rings.

Some later gearboxen use carbon fiber or other synthetic/composite materials, which is why a specialty lube is necessary.

Funny thing - recall how I mentioned using engine oil as an old hot-rodder's trick? Several front-wheel-drive gearboxen are spec'd to use engine oil (typically 5W-30, but sometimes 0W-30) from the factory for fuel economy, or even using Dexron automatic transmission fluid (our younger son had a 1995 Neon with a manual gearbox, and it spec'd Dexron III for the fluid change. He thought it was funny, until I explained why they do it. ATF corresponds to a roughly 10-vis engine oil, for reasons of pumping and the like.) Pumping loss/drag is also why modern engines are designed for a much "lighter" oil - with 5W-30, 0W-30, and 0W-20 being fairly typical at this point.

But, dead dinosaur-based GL-5 should be removed at your first opportunity. You won't get it all, but the concentration of sulphur will drop by a couple orders of magnitude with your first change, and will drop to insignificance with the second. Just don't give the sulphur time to work on the bronze, and you should be alright.
 
Is coastal 80W90 Gear oil ok? I buy it in 5 gallon drums. They used to say GL-3, GL-4, GL-5 compatible. Just picked up another bucket and it only says GL-5 now!

If been using the stuff in every diff and manual trans I own for years: 51 pickup, 2000 TJ, 59 pickup, 65 corvette.
 
Is coastal 80W90 Gear oil ok? I buy it in 5 gallon drums. They used to say GL-3, GL-4, GL-5 compatible. Just picked up another bucket and it only says GL-5 now!

If been using the stuff in every diff and manual trans I own for years: 51 pickup, 2000 TJ, 59 pickup, 65 corvette.

Some NLGI specs are no longer in use (GL-1, GL-2, GL-6 I haven't seen in years,) but NLGI specs are not backwards compatible like the API specs for engine oil were (thru API Service SL.)

The reason in both cases comes back to what is added (or not added) to the base oil. As the number in GL-x increases, the concentration of EP lubricants goes up, and that means that the sulphur content would increase.

API service specs (engine oil) go the other way - search up discussions on various boards about API SM "Energy Saving" oil, and you'll see that they're not adding the organometallic antiscuff additives that were being used before, and that's wiping out camshafts and tappets. That's why it's so useful to pay attention to the specifications on the label on the bottle...
 
Synthetic GL-5, or dead dinosaurs?

If it's synthetic, you're probably all right - most synthetic GL-5 gear oils don't use sulphur-based EP lubes, and are therefore safe for use with Yellow Metals (copper & copper alloys - sulphur solutions are antagonistic to copper.) Check the label if you used a synthetic.

Dead dinosaurs? Drain & replace at your first convenience. Dead dinosaur GL-5 almost invariably will use sulphur-based EP lubes, and they can literally dissolve the synchroniser rings (sintered bronze) in the AX-15 and other gearboxen that use them. (GL-5 is fine in the Peugeot because there isn't even a speck of bronze in the case. The synchroniser rings are aluminum, the bearings are steel, and I don't recall seeing any bushings in there.)

GL-3 is the preferred lubricant for AX-15 transmissions - when it comes to dead dinosaurs. GL-4 may be used in the short term (relatively low concentration of sulphur,) while GL-5 should be avoided.

As mentioned, most "performance synthetic" gear lubes will not use sulphur-based compounds for EP lubes, so they'll be just fine in the AX-15 (and other gearboxen using bronze synchro rings - which includes nearly all of the better vintage gearboxen. Some newer five- and six-speeds will call for a special synthetic oil - the NV4500 and NV5600 are good examples of this, as is - I believe - the NSG370 six-speed.) Check the label.

Also note that, in a pinch, engine oil may be used in a manual gearbox without ill effect. An old hot-rodder's trick is to drain the 80W-90 out of a Muncie and refill it with 10W-30 engine oil to reduce pumping drag, it can net you a couple of additional horsepower (which can make a difference on the track!) Use 10W-30 - if the MT90 won't be in anytime soon, drain the GL-5 out of the gearbox and replace with 10W-30 until it gets there (any API service spec will work, since engine oils don't use sulphur lubes and the organometallic antiscuff additive concentration isn't an issue for the gearbox.)

The conflict with using GL-5 in the AX-15 comes from the sulphur-based EP lubes and the use of bronze for the synchroniser rings - the sulphur, as I mentioned, is antagonistic to the copper in the bronze alloy, and will literally dissolve the synchroniser rings. However, this doesn't necessarily make the gearbox unusable - just makes it unsynchronised. Gearboxen used in heavy-duty trucks are often unsynchronised, which simply means that truck drivers are taught double-clutching to shift gears smoothly (if you've ever driven a very old manual transmission vehicle, you've probably learned to double-clutch as well.) Double-clutching will be necessary until you can overhaul the gearbox and replace the synchroniser rings. It's usually obvious when the wrong oil was used for the last topoff when you drain - the "gold glitter" you see in the oil is the dissolved bronze synchroniser rings.

Some later gearboxen use carbon fiber or other synthetic/composite materials, which is why a specialty lube is necessary.

Funny thing - recall how I mentioned using engine oil as an old hot-rodder's trick? Several front-wheel-drive gearboxen are spec'd to use engine oil (typically 5W-30, but sometimes 0W-30) from the factory for fuel economy, or even using Dexron automatic transmission fluid (our younger son had a 1995 Neon with a manual gearbox, and it spec'd Dexron III for the fluid change. He thought it was funny, until I explained why they do it. ATF corresponds to a roughly 10-vis engine oil, for reasons of pumping and the like.) Pumping loss/drag is also why modern engines are designed for a much "lighter" oil - with 5W-30, 0W-30, and 0W-20 being fairly typical at this point.

But, dead dinosaur-based GL-5 should be removed at your first opportunity. You won't get it all, but the concentration of sulphur will drop by a couple orders of magnitude with your first change, and will drop to insignificance with the second. Just don't give the sulphur time to work on the bronze, and you should be alright.

I put in Red Line Synthetic 75w90 GL5+. Couldn't find any info about it anywhere if it has sulfur in it or not. Nothing on the label, nothing on their web site.

Thanks for the explanation...definitely great info.
 
Is it safe to assume the AX-5 behind my 4cyl doesn't like GL-5 as well? I've not had the chance to open it up (which is a good thing in my book!) but I'll be doing a clutch and trans. service in the near future.
 
Is it safe to assume the AX-5 behind my 4cyl doesn't like GL-5 as well? I've not had the chance to open it up (which is a good thing in my book!) but I'll be doing a clutch and trans. service in the near future.

Yea it has the brass syncros the same as the ax-15.
 
Ya, I only use Amsoil 75w-90 GL-4 in mine. Not a single issue with it. It's the only stuff my 404 Unimog would like. I'm sure you would be fine with a simple drain/refill.

AX-15Rebuild045.jpg
 
Ya, I only use Amsoil 75w-90 GL-4 in mine. Not a single issue with it. It's the only stuff my 404 Unimog would like. I'm sure you would be fine with a simple drain/refill.

AX-15Rebuild045.jpg


An off topic question,... Is that an AX5 transmission?
 
i used to run 90wt redline in my ba10 because of the brass, filled it with water a few times offroad, and shifted like crap.

moved over to 20w50 motor oil

better than ever and cheaper.
 
i used to run 90wt redline in my ba10 because of the brass, filled it with water a few times offroad, and shifted like crap.

moved over to 20w50 motor oil

better than ever and cheaper.

GL-5 is fine in the Peugeot because there isn't even a speck of bronze in the case. The synchroniser rings are aluminum, the bearings are steel, and I don't recall seeing any bushings in there.)

Just put new MTL in over the weekend, the old stuff looked good as new after 4 years.
 
I have been running mobil1 synthetic 10w30 in my AX15 (came out of a 95, now in a 91) for months. Several thousand miles and several wheeling trips on it with no issues. It doesn't like to downshift into first much but it always did that.
 
Nope; an AX-15 from my '97. I had it out for a rebuild/fork replacement.

My DD is a 1992 Toyota pickup with the 22RE engine and a 5 speed manual 2 wheel drive. I was told that some Jeeps including some XJ uses the same/similar transmission. Just wondering.

Thanks.
 
i used to run 90wt redline in my ba10 because of the brass, filled it with water a few times offroad, and shifted like crap.

moved over to 20w50 motor oil

better than ever and cheaper.

Note that there is no brass or bronze in the BA-10/5 - based on my having torn four of them to bits for scrap metal (after stripping first and/or second gear in the wretched things.)

This is why you can use GL-5 in the BA-10 - because it's not antagonistic to anything in the case. The AX- series gearboxen (AX-4, AX-5, AX-15, and the rest of the Toyota R and W series boxen) all use bronze synchroniser rings, which is why GL-5 is bad for them.
 
Wow, glad this thread is getting some good info. So the consensus seems to be that I'll be fine with a drain/fill. If anyone is wholeheartedly against this, I'd like to hear your idea as to why. Thanks!
 
I run Shell dino 10W-30 in my AX15. Shifts pretty good and it's cheap. $26 for 12 qts at Costco. Hasn't failed me yet in 25k miles. I change it out every 15k miles.
 
My DD is a 1992 Toyota pickup with the 22RE engine and a 5 speed manual 2 wheel drive. I was told that some Jeeps including some XJ uses the same/similar transmission. Just wondering.

Thanks.

Ya, no worries. I'm not sure but I've also heard the same. The transmission is a Japanese unit made by Aisin so I wouldn't doubt it. I've got a 4x4 1982 short wheel base pickup with a 22R and I've never looked to see if they are. Of course mine is a 4 speed though.
 
Ya, no worries. I'm not sure but I've also heard the same. The transmission is a Japanese unit made by Aisin so I wouldn't doubt it. I've got a 4x4 1982 short wheel base pickup with a 22R and I've never looked to see if they are. Of course mine is a 4 speed though.

Yes. It do appear some of the earlier pickups got the Asin Warner 4 speed manual transmission also similar to those found in some jeeps. I am not sure which 5 speed is in my pickup and what year jeep would have the same/similar transmission.

MAY POP, thanks for the link. I will spend some time going through it.
 
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