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88 Xj Stall & No Start

RAVC1

NAXJA Forum User
Location
Michigan
I chose to place this post here rather than in the modified tech section because it's still all OE Xj parts. Here's the story.

I converted my 88Xj Limited with 4.0L/AW4 to an AX-15 this summer because I could not afford the AW4 fuel economy. A pesky and infrequent problem has surfaced since I performed this work. The engine loses all power while driving down the road. Most of the time engine power is restored within seconds while I am coasting down the road. However, this is not always the case. I think the initial time this problem occurred I experienced 2-3 events like this before they vanished. Most, if not all the remaining experiences have been solitary events.

I have the AW4 harness still attached so the pins permitting crank are jumped. This causes the "Check Engine" light to be on continuously. Is there a way I can get codes through the "Check Engine" light with this Renix vintage Xj? I have tried the three consecutive on-off key cycles but my "Check Engine" light is on permanently anyway so I cannot tell if the key cycle method is incorrect for my vehicle or if the always on status of my "Check Engine" light is creating the difficulty in obtaining any code I might have. What scan tools would read this ECM besides the DRB-II?

I chose to replace the crank shaft position sensor (CPS) when I converted to the AX-15 to be cautious. However, I retained the original CPS and will solder its broken wire and use it to help troubleshoot my issue.

I had it at the repair shop Thursday and Friday and they found an engine ground to the fire wall that was loose. However, this results in improved starter energy only. I picked the vehicle up and it stalled on me two times the next morning.

It seems to me this is a CPS issue, engine electrical power or distribution, spark or fuel issue.

Any ideas? I must make this vehicle reliable immediately!

Rick
 
There is no check engine light in a 1988XJ, what light are you referring too?

That ground strap can and will cause your motor to stall. I would replace it completely with a new wire, the braided strap can look just fine but still be corroded and unreliable.

Do you still have the auto ECU?
Auto TPS?
Removed the TCU?
Do you have the C101 connector?

The only other scan tool I'm aware of that will read the Renix is the Snap On 2500
Old_Man had one for sale in the for sale section a while back.
 
Yes, my 88 Xj has a check engine light.

I installed a manual ECU, AW4 TCU is disconnected. I do not recall what you mean my the C101 connector. Presumably, one of this from the AW4 harness?

Rick
 
the light you are likely referring to is the "Emiss Maint" light? If so it's on a timer from the factory, when it goes off you replace the timer or remove it to make the light go off. Trust me, there is no MIL for the Renix.. It's all realtime.

Is it this light?
http://www.jeepsunlimited.com/forums/showthread.php?t=458205

The c101 connector is located above the brake booster area, it's a problem generally because it gets nasty inside and most of the ECU sensor signals run through there, most importantly the CPS. If you search it you'll find pictures and instructions on how to deal with it, if you still have it.

Did you swap a manual TPS in with the manual ECU, or swap throttle bodies?

When it misses does the Tach still work or drop to 0?
 
Correct location for my lamp but, mine reads "Check Engine." It is on permanently only as a result of the jumper I made to connect pins C & E (?) from one of the AW4 connectors that enables the start signal allowing the starter to be engaged.

Yes, my 88 Xj is the vintage that has the C101. This is an excellent observation on your part (I think the 89 Xj migrated to the one pieces engine harness.). While I live in MI this Xj came from AZ so the undercarriage is immaculately clean. Presumably, the connections in the C101 are too but, this remains an assumption.

I made no changes for the TPS; no hardware or adjustments. The posts I read here on NAXJA indicated the AW4 TPS works fine and may require adjustment if but mine has never had issues.

I think the tachometer reading drops to zero.

Rick
 
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then you've accidently powered the lamp somehow with your jumper, or it's just coincidence. It was a timer that was meant to remind people to take it and have it checked out, since the Renix system has no way other than bad gas mileage or quitting to tell you somethings wrong.


The tach dropping to 0 would point to an ignition problem. So, CPS malfunction causing the ECU to turn off the ICM, or ICM malfunction, since the tach gets signal from the ICM direct.

When it dies and doesn't start check for spark.

Even though your 101 connector looks clean I would take it apart and clean it. The factory packed all of the connectors and fuse block with some nasty brown tar like creation that turns into a big mess after 20 years. There was a TSB on routing the critical wires past the C101 connector. you'd be wise to find that and read it, just so you're aware of what's going on there. It might be proactive to go ahead and splice the wires yourself.
 
My jumper is the cause of the lamp being illuminated; this is discussed here but, may not be emphasized correctly. I have yet to determine a method where my clutch switch will permit my starter to engage. I may need to exchange ECU wires to accomplish this but, it would be worth it because this would also clean up my previous work.

So you are speculating a CPS issue/malfunction that leads to the ECU disabling the ignition command signal to compensate for the suspect CPS error. Alternatively, you are also suggesting an ICM malfunction independent of CPS issues or concerns in view of how the tach obtains its signal.

I will contact my local dealer to see if they can search their TSB database for this. I appreciate your insight regarding this. Presumably. soldering the new connections is best.

Your help is greatly appreciated.

Rick
 
Is it possible that this condition can be reset, permitting me to start my engine, by removing power from the CPS, ECU, ICM or disconnecting the battery for a period of time? If yes, this would indicate the engine control system is involved...correct?

Rick
 
I have yet to determine a method where my clutch switch will permit my starter to engage. I may need to exchange ECU wires to accomplish this but, it would be worth it because this would also clean up my previous work.

I can't help you too much on that, as my clutch switch has long been disabled, and my truck was 5 spd to start with.


So you are speculating a CPS issue/malfunction that leads to the ECU disabling the ignition command signal to compensate for the suspect CPS error. Alternatively, you are also suggesting an ICM malfunction independent of CPS issues or concerns in view of how the tach obtains its signal.

Yes, the tach gets signal straight from the ICM, so if it doesn't function then the ICM is either bad, or it's not being told to fire by the ECU Of course we're assuming the tach still works.

I will contact my local dealer to see if they can search their TSB database for this. I appreciate your insight regarding this. Presumably. soldering the new connections is best.

Yes, run all the wires through a grommet and solder them.

Your help is greatly appreciated.

Rick

Is it possible that this condition can be reset, permitting me to start my engine, by removing power from the CPS, ECU, ICM or disconnecting the battery for a period of time? If yes, this would indicate the engine control system is involved...correct?

Try unplugging the CPS connector at the firewall, shorting the pins on the TRANS side of the harness to one another and then putting it back together. I have no idea why, but it seems to make them work again, at least for a little while.

Rick

...
 
By TRANS side of the harness you mean the CPS sensor itself, since it is mounted to the clutch cover/bell housing???
 
As 87Manche stated, there is NO "CEL" light in the Renix.

There is a light that comes on when the HEGO timer expires at 60k miles. You can unplug the HEGO timer and toss it in the garbage--it is a one-time only use item--and just leave the connector unplugged and you won't see that light again. Or, you can go and purchase a new HEGO timer, about $60+, and change it again in another 60k miles. All it is doing is reminding you to change the o2 sensor.

The C101 is located above the brake booster:

154_1005_07jeepjeep_cherokee_xjc101_connector.jpg


These connectors were causing problems on vehicles that had just been sold, so I wouldn't put a lot of faith in yours.

Grounds are critical for the Renix. Replace the head-to-firewall braided strap with a 4 or 2 gauge cable. The ECU, ICM/coil, o2 sensor, and others ground at the dipstick tube--renew those grounds. Strip to bare metal, treat with an anti-corrosion agent, make the connections TIGHT.
 
Joe,

Thanks for the response. I am aware of the functionality of the CEL and emissions timer. Oddly, these timers can still be purchased. Jumping the AW4 harness pins is know to turn on this lamp.

I know of all these grounds (especially, the head/firewall one in view of my recent no start and trip to a service facility.) and will replace them promptly. You advice regarding this is appreciated.

My C101 looks similar, in terms of cosmetic condition, to the example photo you posted. However, I will be converting this as suggested by 87Manche ASAP as well.

Thanks for all the assistance.

Rick
 
By TRANS side of the harness you mean the CPS sensor itself, since it is mounted to the clutch cover/bell housing???

yes, it's some magical thing that makes it work again. Call it a Renix quirk, you'll find a lot of those. AMC had their own ideas about wiring a vehicle, most of them were crap.
 
Joe,

Your response caused me to check my supply of wire I keep here at the house for repairs such as these. I find the largest to be 10 gauge copper wire. This is not a small conductor and this makes me think that your recommendation for #2 or #4 is likely to be the size of a battery cable. Given the size of the ground strap between the head and firewall on the Renix vintage Jeep vehicles #2 or #4 conductor wire for a ground seems overkill (I am not electrically inclined...). I'm sure it gets the job done but I cannot see purchasing 10"-12" of the larger conductor for this purpose. One of my scrap vehicle may have a spare battery cable I can cut this length from but I still have an issue with attaching a spade terminal to wire of this size.

Alternatively, I may make two or, three ground wires with my 10 gauge wire to replace the head/firewall ground strap.

Rick
 
the ground strap was woefully undersized from the factory. Battery cable is what you should use, it will make all of your cabin electrics work much better. Also consider bonding the negative battery post to the fender.

See my previous post about the AMC wiring.

You can get a premade section at the parts store with the ring terminals for about $8.
The wire from head to firewall is critical.
 
I checked my 88 parts Xj and it still has the battery cable set. I removed the ground (black) cable and I am in the process of soldering copper battery terminal lugs to it. I am surprised how flexible it is. The other surprise is that the individual conductors are of a smaller gauge wire than my 10 gauge wire. This should get the job done nicely.

I did not know the strap was undersized to begin with; this sounds just like the auto industry...

Rick
 
I checked my 88 parts Xj and it still has the battery cable set. I removed the ground (black) cable and I am in the process of soldering copper battery terminal lugs to it. I am surprised how flexible it is. The other surprise is that the individual conductors are of a smaller gauge wire than my 10 gauge wire. This should get the job done nicely.

I did not know the strap was undersized to begin with; this sounds just like the auto industry...

Rick

beancounters always win. You'll be surprised at how much better the HVAC fan will work now.
 
The new grounds are in. I am happier with the head/chassis ground than I am with the four that attach at the oil dipstick (because the temperatures we have had forced me to crimp these smaller gauge wire connections) but, all appeared well during my initial test drive yesterday afternoon. Regardless, it was easy to expose clean shiny wire for each cut and crimp I made. I can improve these when warmer weather returns.

The original CPS is back in use and I observed no issues with stall, no start, etc. At this point, since the no start was becoming more frequent I am close to concluding my replacement CPS (NAPA Echlin) had some type of issue. This would be a surprise to me in that I have defaulted to NAPA parts for years because I've never had issues. Only time with the original CPS and trying the Echlin CPS again will tell for certain. I also need to be careful with the "coincidence" of my stall, no start with any other work I perform on the vehicle as well as the C101 concerns.

Rick
 
Ahh yes, the "it's cold as hell outside so this will do" repairs.

Glad to hear that it seems to be fixed. Grounds are probably the #1 reason for crazy Renix. Other than the wiring/injectors the Renix system is bombproof.
 
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