• Welcome to the new NAXJA Forum! If your password does not work, please use "Forgot your password?" link on the log-in page. Please feel free to reach out to [email protected] if we can provide any assistance.

lots of steering problems for just 3" lift

latenights

NAXJA Forum User
I have a 1996 xj 4.0 HO aw4 trans 3" lift on 30" bfg at's. I installed a 3inch rough country lift and i bought the x-flex adjustable control arms. Beforfe the lift i had some play in steering, I could turn the wheel from about 11 o'clock - 1 o'clock without the steering actually turning. Not a problem. Now i can turn it from 10-2. This however is much more of a pain in the ass especially with the bump steer in having. I adjusted the control arms to almost 16.25 according this this chart http://www.ilovejeeps.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12524 and another chart. I just got the alignment done and my caster is way off at 10.6 degrees. Which way do i have to adjust the LCA's to get the proper caster? Also i think i need to buy an adjustable trac bar since im using the stock one right now. When i turn my wheel when the XJ is parked the front end of the body of the truck moves around a lot. Is there anything else i could have missed? I think i will be buying a reman steering box too just to help with the play, any opinions on reman steering boxes? any help will be great since i commute to college 5 days a week starting sept 7th and have a full time job until then. I have done some searching around but i just need some more input thanks.
 
I'd say adjust the control arms so the wheel is centered in the well, then adjust the uppers to fix the caster.
 
the steering box also leaks a lot and theres a clanking noise in it to when i rock the wheel back and fourth. It did this before the lift too. Forgot to mention this stuff too. New unit bearing last summer, ball joints new, trac bar new (stock will be buying an adj one), new TREs, new drag link.
 
Yes, it's possible to adjust the caster angle just using the lowers, but I'd prefer to set the front tire position in the wheel well using the lowers, and use adjustable uppers to set the caster.
Your current 10.6* of caster indicates the lowers are too long as compared to the uppers. Shortening the lowers will decrease caster, but will move the wheels rearward in the wheel well, possibly causing tire contact at the rear when "stuffing".

Before you adjust the lowers, use an angle finder to determine the angle of the front pinion shaft--put the angle finder against the front of the diff, on top of one of the two case spreader holes located just to the right and left of the diff's front cover--theses are perpendicular to the axles center line. You can use this known angle to check your caster after you adjust your upper/lower links. Let's say you measure a pinion angle of 15*. To find the correction factor, subtract your desired caster angle of, let's say, 6* from your current caster angle of 10.6*, giving you a correction factor of 4.6*. Subtract that from the current pinion angle (just measured) of 15*, giving you the desired pinion angle of 10.4*. Now adjust your control arms for a pinion angle of 10.4*. Doing so would result in a 6* caster; You want a caster of ~ 6*.

As far as a new, adjustable track bar goes, it's best to go that route as opposed to drilling the old lower mount to move the stock track bar over; however, many people just re-drill with a lift of only 3 inches.
What's more important, is to get the track bar parallel to the drag link, otherwise you will experience "bump" steer. To get the track bar parallel requires either using a track bar drop bracket at the frame, or raising the track bar mount at the axle end, or using a different pitman arm, or a combination of all of the above. Changing the frame mount is easiest, but not a complete solution; however, again, at 3 inches of lift, the most I would do is a frame drop bracket.

Think about what you intend on doing in the future with regard to tire size, lift, etc. A lot of us, me included, started with 3 inch lifts, then went through a number of "lift" iterations before arriving at a level we're satisfied with. Each of these iterations cause a whole slew of additional required changes, including throwing out what we already did! But, it's just money and time, and hopefully "satisfaction" of creating your own "ride".
 
ok thanks a lot xjbubba im going to run out to home depot now and buy an angle finder. your way of doing it is easier then this way it seems like http://go.jeep-xj.info/HowtoAlignment.htm. are you talking about the two hole that are to the right and left of the center of the diff? almost on the axle tube but still on the diff? I leave for Marine Corps boot camp jan 3 and when i graduate from there and SOI i plan on getting the rough country 6.5 inch long arms so i dont really want to buy to many things for it now. i got the 3" lift just to hold me off until then
 
and i know how i described the two hole made me sound like a newb but i do know a decent amount of stuff hahah. im just trying to make sure i get this right, ive never done alignment stuff on my own before.
 
you can, but it's nice to have adjustable uppers as well so that you have greater flexibility when it comes to dialing in axle position and angles.
 
yeah thats true. once i graduate from SOI and get the lift i really want ill make that my graduation present to myself =). but for now ill just stick with the setup i have now and maybe an adjustable trac bar. for the caster measurement, those have to be measure while its under its own weight on all 4 wheels right? so that means measure. lift up and adjust, set down and keep measuring and adjusting untill its correct?
 
lowers should be 16" with a 3" lift, you " DO NOT " need adjustable uppers. stock length is fine until about 4.5" of lift. some say adjustable trac bars are not needed with a 3' lift, i feel they are necessary at that height.
 
yeah i think im going to get the adjustable trac bar but then wont i need to get another alignment when i adjust the trac bar to the correct length? i just got done with the caster, i shortened the control arms until my diff tilted 4-5 degrees from the way xjbubba said. i think my toe-in off a little bit now so im going to go out and measure that and try to get it close.
 
lowers should be 16" with a 3" lift, you " DO NOT " need adjustable uppers. stock length is fine until about 4.5" of lift. some say adjustable trac bars are not needed with a 3' lift, i feel they are necessary at that height.

X2.

I had some 16.25" fixed length lowers and had problem getting the caster dialed in. I replaced them with some 16" ones and now have no problem.
 
Yes, it's possible to adjust the caster angle just using the lowers, but I'd prefer to set the front tire position in the wheel well using the lowers, and use adjustable uppers to set the caster.
Your current 10.6* of caster indicates the lowers are too long as compared to the uppers. Shortening the lowers will decrease caster, but will move the wheels rearward in the wheel well, possibly causing tire contact at the rear when "stuffing".



That stuffing situation really isn't possible. As you stuff ... the tire is going to swing out in an arc. So you would be more likely to hit the front of the fender, than the back. 30 inch tires simply do not fill the wheel well to the point that fender contact is an issue with a small lift. What you are describing would be a scenario for rear leaf springs. At 3 inches, he really doesn't *need* uppers unless he has worn out bushings. I would start simple and adjust the lowers.



The 10.6° of caster is definitely too much. Shorten your LCAs to get the process started. Personally ... a longer track bar is a wise investment. I don't like the redrilling or bracket band-aids.




I notice you are in S. Plainfield. I'm a little over an hour away from you in the Poconos. If you'd like my assistance or services, feel free to shoot me a PM. I don't bite.



Joe
 
Thanks joe, I think im going to order an adjustable trac bar once im done typing this post(also ordering break lines). If after i adjust the trac bar im still having problems im going to bring it to OK4WD and have them adjust the caster and toe. im having really bad bumpsteer so im hoping getting those correct angles and having the trac bar adjusted right will get rid of it. When i brought it to pep boys they were like uhh since your truck is lifted we cant really go by stock specs for toe-in so we can only visually align your alignment. Bullsh*ttttt. If i run out of money since i have 18 credits worth of textbooks to buy ill send you a PM. Thanks in advance
 
That stuffing situation really isn't possible. As you stuff ... the tire is going to swing out in an arc. So you would be more likely to hit the front of the fender, than the back. 30 inch tires simply do not fill the wheel well to the point that fender contact is an issue with a small lift. What you are describing would be a scenario for rear leaf springs. At 3 inches, he really doesn't *need* uppers unless he has worn out bushings. I would start simple and adjust the lowers.



The 10.6° of caster is definitely too much. Shorten your LCAs to get the process started. Personally ... a longer track bar is a wise investment. I don't like the redrilling or bracket band-aids.




I notice you are in S. Plainfield. I'm a little over an hour away from you in the Poconos. If you'd like my assistance or services, feel free to shoot me a PM. I don't bite.



Joe
With no lift, my 30s filled the wheel wells. Couldn't drive it without either trimming or lifting. And that was with swaybars (mine had front and rear) connected.
 
With no lift, my 30s filled the wheel wells. Couldn't drive it without either trimming or lifting. And that was with swaybars (mine had front and rear) connected.

yeah my 30s also filled up the wheel wells and rubber at full lock with no lift. In the rear, theres was almost no gap when looking at it from the side between the top of the tire and the flare. I did also have saggy leafs though. It looks a lot better with just the 3" of lift. I haven't had a chance to bring it wheeling yet though. Hopefully ill be able to when my trac bar and brake lines coming in on friday :thumbup:
 
With no lift, my 30s filled the wheel wells. Couldn't drive it without either trimming or lifting. And that was with swaybars (mine had front and rear) connected.



Darky ... what I was saying was with a small lift ... there should be no way for the 30s to fill the well. Now, without a lift --- yah.


EndlessMtnFab said:
30 inch tires simply do not fill the wheel well to the point that fender contact is an issue with a small lift
 
Thanks joe, I think im going to order an adjustable trac bar once im done typing this post(also ordering break lines). If after i adjust the trac bar im still having problems im going to bring it to OK4WD and have them adjust the caster and toe. im having really bad bumpsteer so im hoping getting those correct angles and having the trac bar adjusted right will get rid of it. When i brought it to pep boys they were like uhh since your truck is lifted we cant really go by stock specs for toe-in so we can only visually align your alignment. Bullsh*ttttt. If i run out of money since i have 18 credits worth of textbooks to buy ill send you a PM. Thanks in advance



Well ... you could have ordered them from me too. :doh:


I don't have a 150,000 dollar alignment machine .... but I'm damned sure I can get it as close as they can. Accuracy comes from the person, not the machine.


I can't imagine why you would have bumpsteer with a 3 inch kit unless you added a drop pitman arm. Caster & toe will help with the so-called dreaded "death wobble" but will do nothing to cure bump steer.


As for PepBoys ... Every place is different.
 
Having worked at a Pepboys back in college I can say that most of the tech's don't have any real formal alignment training. Mix that with the liability the store assumes for working on a "modified" vehicle and that is most likely why the didn't want to do it. Its a BS reason but its a reason none the less.

Don't forget that caster can also be adjusted from the lower control arm mount on the body with shims. Ten degrees is way overkill and will cause it to be all over the road. Caster provides directional stability to the front tires and also aids in the steering wheel returning to center after a turn. In an ideal situation you want around a .5 split side to side to make up for road crown. Its also a balancing act with pinion angle in the front vs caster.

I've had work done by OK and I was less than impressed with them on each dealing. However individual results may vary.

I do agree with Joe that the tool is only as good as the operator. I use to do truck alignments with a 15yr old hunter system that used string between the sensors. I got better results than shops with all new stuff.
 
yeah i think im going to get the adjustable trac bar but then wont i need to get another alignment when i adjust the trac bar to the correct length? i just got done with the caster, i shortened the control arms until my diff tilted 4-5 degrees from the way xjbubba said. i think my toe-in off a little bit now so im going to go out and measure that and try to get it close.

First, hopefully you discovered that you should ADD the calculated correction to your current pinion angle--NOT subtract it, like I said in my previous post (post #5 of this thread). As you know, you want to decrease the caster angle of 10.6 to ~6*--this would mean you rotate your pinion upwards the 4.6* needed. Second, changing the pinion angle affects u-joint operating angles. Not sure what u-joints your Jeep has, but constant velocity type joints--mine is a "double Cardin"--stock '88 with part-time transfer case--which requires the u-joint at the diff to be ~.5* positive--meaning the pinion points slightly above the drive shaft angle.
A problem with lifting a Jeep is the u-joint operating angles get out of whack, and can cause front drive shaft vibration, especially if your front axle is always connected to the transfer case. You can correct for this by using adjustable control arms, as you're doing, but as you know, you will be changing your caster at the same time. So, you have to decide on the compromise you wish to make--maximise caster angle, or drive shaft operating angles, or some where in between. At 3" of lift, the compromise is generally not hard to live with. At 6" of lift,the affects of "compromise" are a lot harder to live with on a "daily driver". The real solution is to cut the inner "c's" loose on the axle housing, and rotate them to adjust caster after the pinion angle has been set. People normally do this when they build an after market axle.
Adjusting caster does affect toe. Incorrect toe is probably one of the worst conditions you can have as far as tire wear; it will also cause "darty" behavior on the highway, so by all means, correct your toe to factory specs, or slightly in--like ~1/8 inch.
If you are set on doing a 6 inch lift in the future, I would not buy an adjustable track bar now--they generally are cut to lengths with available adjustment for a given lift--like 0 to 3", and 4 to 6", etc. They're not cheap, so it's wasted money to buy one you know you are going to get rid of in the near future. A 3" lift should not require much change in the track bar length.
Measure how far the driver's side tire extends past the flare, verses the passenger side. I wouldn't worry about 1/2 inch difference.
I don't think changing the track bar length will affect your alignment, but it will affect steering wheel centering.
Also, I wanted to wish you good luck at boot camp--it will be an experience to remember!!
 
Back
Top