Custom front caliper mounts

Specs: 98 4.0, ZJ rear discs on D44, D30 front, ZJ prop valve, 31's, doesn't stop worth crap.

I've been doing way too much reading on front brake upgrade options. I learned a lot, but I mostly learned that I have more questions than answers.

I'm not up for doing the entire WJ knuckle swap. There are too many variables to the whole equation. That, the cost, and my lack of a welder equal a no-can-do.

Vanco power brake system. Great system, looks like what I want, but cripes $750?

The more I thought about this, the more I realized it has to be possible- and then I realized that this is basically what the Vanco system does, but utilizes different calipers and rotors.

On the stock XJ knuckles there are tabs or ears to help align the caliper, I'm not sure what else you call them.
On the WJ knuckles, there are no such tabs.

This leads me to believe that those tabs are not needed for the WJ calipers.

What would be the feasability of removing those tabs from an XJ knuckle, and machining the proper bracket that would bolt to the original XJ caliper mounts but also allow the mounting of a WJ caliper? The bracket could be machined out of solid stock. Another option would be to find via some searching a vehicle that came with dual piston calipers inside 15" wheels and use those parts for this system.

The idea would be to mount a WJ(or other) caliper onto an XJ knuckle with some machining and an additional bracket.
Cons are: permanent alteration of XJ knuckle, and no WJ crossover steering.
Pros are: WJ calipers, lower cost, not having to mess with the steering system at all.

Looks like the 2001-06 Ford Rangers were offered with a 15" wheel and dual piston calipers, and also have their own mounting bracket. Still looking at other options....

There is an Aussie kit, here that is super expensive. It uses ford parts & a new bracket that bolts to the knuckle, though, so it might be a useful lead.

joshv98xj said:

Specs: 98 4.0, ZJ rear discs on D44, D30 front, ZJ prop valve, 31's, doesn't stop worth crap.

I've been doing way too much reading on front brake upgrade options. I learned a lot, but I mostly learned that I have more questions than answers.

I'm not up for doing the entire WJ knuckle swap. There are too many variables to the whole equation. That, the cost, and my lack of a welder equal a no-can-do.

Vanco power brake system. Great system, looks like what I want, but cripes $750?

The more I thought about this, the more I realized it has to be possible- and then I realized that this is basically what the Vanco system does, but utilizes different calipers and rotors.

On the stock XJ knuckles there are tabs or ears to help align the caliper, I'm not sure what else you call them.
On the WJ knuckles, there are no such tabs.

This leads me to believe that those tabs are not needed for the WJ calipers.

What would be the feasability of removing those tabs from an XJ knuckle, and machining the proper bracket that would bolt to the original XJ caliper mounts but also allow the mounting of a WJ caliper? The bracket could be machined out of solid stock. Another option would be to find via some searching a vehicle that came with dual piston calipers inside 15" wheels and use those parts for this system.

The idea would be to mount a WJ(or other) caliper onto an XJ knuckle with some machining and an additional bracket.
Cons are: permanent alteration of XJ knuckle, and no WJ crossover steering.
Pros are: WJ calipers, lower cost, not having to mess with the steering system at all.

Click to expand...

The tabs are what actually handles the braking force on an XJ brake setup - the slide bolts only position the caliper. I'm not certain if the mounting locations for the slide bolts are braced well enough in a stock steering knuckle to use as mount points for WJ calipers or equivalent.

The only thing you have to weld for the WJ knuckle swap is the spacers, you can use a worn out unit bearing as a jig for them, just bolt them in and bring them to a shop to have them welded before you rip your rig apart. You can do the WJ swap for a pretty decent price if you shop around.

Not sure what else you can do really... most of the premade kits cost about what the Vanco kit runs.

I have the exact same thoughts as the OP. With every other car, an aftermarket brake upgrade will just utilize an adapter bracket that bolts to the stock caliper tabs and then to the upgraded calipers. Why does the D30 need to have all sorts of crazy bracing on the unit bearing bolts to work properly? The kits with adapters are made for racing, so they obviously undergo quite a bit of force and don't fail. Why can't there just be a single piece to adapt another caliper to the D30 knuckle?

I have a set of Ford dual piston brakes off my '03 GT sitting at home and I want to put them on the jeep. That aussie company wouldn't sell me just the brackets. Now that I have RCV axles, I can't space out the unit bearing bolts because of the big CV joint, so all those kits won't work. I just upgraded to powerslot rotors and brembo pads, but a big dual piston caliper would be ideal.

http://go.jeep-xj.info/HowtoFordBAdiscs1.htm

I'm fairly sure these calipers are the same as on a Mustang.

kastein said:

The tabs are what actually handles the braking force on an XJ brake setup - the slide bolts only position the caliper. I'm not certain if the mounting locations for the slide bolts are braced well enough in a stock steering knuckle to use as mount points for WJ calipers or equivalent.

The only thing you have to weld for the WJ knuckle swap is the spacers, you can use a worn out unit bearing as a jig for them, just bolt them in and bring them to a shop to have them welded before you rip your rig apart. You can do the WJ swap for a pretty decent price if you shop around.

Not sure what else you can do really... most of the premade kits cost about what the Vanco kit runs.

Click to expand...

I understand that the tabs handle some of the braking force, but how do you reconcile that with the way the WJ calipers are built? I'm not sure the slide bolt mounts are strong enough either, but if you look at the Vanco kit, it appears that they machine a flange of sorts that mounts to the XJ knuckle (they have to use the XJ knuckle, otherwise they wouldn't ask for your core) and then supports the Explorer brake caliper mount.

I know one of the Vanco guys is on here occasionally, and I've heard him say in the past that they engineer their system as a complete system, which is why you can't buy any of the parts separately. I would assume the same is true of the Aussie system. I'm not asking for racing performance, I just want to be able to stop when I want to. Just about any dual piston caliper has to be better than the stock XJ caliper.

Looking at the picture in Go-Jeeps writeup of the Aussie install, basically the last picture on the first page, is what I want to create. A flange that mounts to the stock caliper mounts, which contains new mounts for new calipers. It's been done before, but it has to be able to be done cheaper.

Kastein- you say that the WJ swap can be done for a pretty decent price if you shop around. What's your definition of a decent price? I want to be able to do something that won't require the purchase of new wheels and tires or a new steering system.

This has to be doable, we'll figure it out one way or another.

The Aussie kit requires the removal of all of the XJ caliper mounts. Looking at the Go-Jeep install, you have to clean off the entire side of the knuckle. Then you pull the hub, and the new caliper mount gets anchored into the hub mounts, and has new caliper mounting bracket mounting points fixed to it.

If you are looking at custom stuff like this, you might check out the Toyota T100 caliper. I haven't done a lot of research on it yet, but appears on casual inspection to be the same four piston design as the earlier Toy calipers that simply bolt to a bracket. They are common and should be easily obtainable. This would be a major upgrade since this off a newer 3/4 ton pickup. Not sure what size rotor, but a newer one off the same bolt pattern would be the ticket as you will custom make the bracket for the caliper.

joshv98xj said:

I understand that the tabs handle some of the braking force, but how do you reconcile that with the way the WJ calipers are built? I'm not sure the slide bolt mounts are strong enough either, but if you look at the Vanco kit, it appears that they machine a flange of sorts that mounts to the XJ knuckle (they have to use the XJ knuckle, otherwise they wouldn't ask for your core) and then supports the Explorer brake caliper mount.

I know one of the Vanco guys is on here occasionally, and I've heard him say in the past that they engineer their system as a complete system, which is why you can't buy any of the parts separately. I would assume the same is true of the Aussie system. I'm not asking for racing performance, I just want to be able to stop when I want to. Just about any dual piston caliper has to be better than the stock XJ caliper.

Looking at the picture in Go-Jeeps writeup of the Aussie install, basically the last picture on the first page, is what I want to create. A flange that mounts to the stock caliper mounts, which contains new mounts for new calipers. It's been done before, but it has to be able to be done cheaper.

Kastein- you say that the WJ swap can be done for a pretty decent price if you shop around. What's your definition of a decent price? I want to be able to do something that won't require the purchase of new wheels and tires or a new steering system.

This has to be doable, we'll figure it out one way or another.

Click to expand...

If I recall correctly from looking at my stack of WJ parts, the difference is that the slides on the WJ are much larger diameter, as are the bolts that go through them. They're designed to take the force of braking and probably use much harder materials as opposed to the soft steel used for the XJ slide tubes. It's all in the design / how they were intended to be used. The mount points on the knuckles are also much heavier (again, iirc.)

Pretty decent price... hmmmmm:
* I got my calipers, caliper brackets, knuckles, TREs, and the stock steering (tie rod + drag link) for under 50 dollars because it was all-you-can-carry day at the junkyard and I got a whole bunch of other stuff as well as the WJ setup for $100 all told.
* rotors and pads are comparable to XJ prices. If you get lucky you may get these even cheaper at the junkyard if they are in good shape, the ones I found were in lousy shape so I'm buying new. XJ needed a brake job anyways.
* $42 for the JKS knuckle spacers, I pulled an 8.8 from a local junkyard for a friend of mine in exchange for the welding (he paid for the axle, we're just trading labor for labor basically)
* 1999.5-up XJ unit bearings: traded my spare shafts with 1999-down unit bearings on them to a friend who had picked up spare shafts off an 01 without realizing the unit bearings were different. So I got these essentially for free.
* WJ balljoint kits: I paid $90 shipped for a pair of Spicer balljoint kits from alljeep.com. Best price I could find anywhere for a good brand, I didn't want cheapo balljoints on this rig.
* JKS tie rod and drag link, along with jam nuts - $210. You could probably cut and sleeve the stock tie rod and drag link and get away without spending this money.
* I am not doing the over the knuckle tie rod flip yet... doesn't cost much, all you need to do is drill out the knuckle tapers, weld in the goferit inserts, and reinstall the tie rod.

Bear in mind this swap will probably require you to change your track bar as well, since the geometry will be real bad otherwise and you'll get some severe bump steer. I needed to switch track bars anyways, so this just changes how I was going to do so. I also had already switched to 16" rims because I got TreadWright tires and they only had 33s in a 16" rim size when I ordered, and I needed new rims anyways for less backspacing.

So the total is $392 plus brake consumables and whatever I do for a track bar, at least in my case. If you cut and sleeved the stock WJ tie rod and drag link you could probably save enough to switch to 16" rims though of course this would result in needing tires too... I just got lucky.

The toyota idea could work as well, but would definately limit your options. We know from the other kits out there that the dual piston calipers work fine with the stock dual diaphragm master cylinder and booster, but would a 4-pot caliper require an upgraded MC or booster? Another thought is that, while widely available, the Toy parts are still significantly more expensive than domestic stuff. Trying to keep this system affordable, I'm not sure that's the way to go. Looking at Napa's site the Toy semi-loaded calipers with mounting brackets are $85 each, plus $85 core each. The Ranger calipers on the other hand run $72 each with a $27 core each. That's a total, if you're going to buy them outright and new of $200 vs $340.

Here’s a hint Vanco uses 98 Ford Explore calibers and rotors. Modify your knuckles and make your own brackets per Go Jeep.

joshv98xj said:

Specs: 98 4.0, ZJ rear discs on D44, D30 front, ZJ prop valve, 31's, doesn't stop worth crap.

Click to expand...

My '98 XJ has over 5" of lift, 32x11.50s running the '98 vacuum booster, mc and proportioner (shuttle valve rubber seal removed) with Cadillac Seville calipers and Lincoln MkV rotors for the rear and stock calipers and rotors for the front with ss brake lines front and rear.
Installed this setup in 2000 and the Jeep stops much better now than the stock setup.
Seems strange that your vehicle "doesn't stop worth a crap" with your setup. Several local members run similar setups and their brakes work fine...

CharlesS said:

My '98 XJ has over 5" of lift, 32x11.50s running the '98 vacuum booster, mc and proportioner (shuttle valve rubber seal removed) with Cadillac Seville calipers and Lincoln MkV rotors for the rear and stock calipers and rotors for the front with ss brake lines front and rear.
Installed this setup in 2000 and the Jeep stops much better now than the stock setup.
Seems strange that your vehicle "doesn't stop worth a crap" with your setup. Several local members run similar setups and their brakes work fine...

Click to expand...

I know! That's what is so frustrating about this. I can expand a bit on my setup. I don't have any SS lines, but I do have a few lines that I cut and flared myself in the rear with my D44 install. I used the cheapo rental flaring tool, that's about the only other thing that might be suspect. At the time I didn't know I could buy preflared lines complete with fittings in various straight lengths. Front lines are stock. Master cylinder and booster are stock. Synthetic Dot4 fluid I think.

If I remember right, I have Performance Friction brake pads all the way around, as that was what was recommended to me at the time. I wouldn't mind changing pads, but I don't want to do it just for kicks and giggles. I want something that I know will work. Maybe I'll try new pads in the rear, as that won't be changing anytime soon. I know EBC yellows are supposed to be the shiznit, is there anything else that consistently gets great reviews? What about Napa's Ultra Premium stuff? Or ceramics?

I feel like somehow I need more pressure though. The brakes don't bother me too much in daily driving, but they are maddening when I'm in 4-lo. I have to stand on the pedal almost as hard as I can to keep the Jeep in one spot.

Verify your rear brakelines that you flared aren't leaking. Next check to see if you rotors are not glazed which will reduce braking dramatically. In addition if the rubber brakelines are the originals I would consider replacing them with stainless braded since the rubber lines are prone to swelling when pressure is applied.
Hope these recommendations help.
EBC yellows are what I would probably upgrade to.

Read my response to your previous brake topic as to my experiences with 4 to 1.

So I double-checked, and I was wrong. I got my vehicles mixed up. I flared the lines on a 'Manche I built up, but sold. Funny thing was, that had 33's, a WJ booster, and stopped great. I have the prebuilt lines on this XJ, because I didn't want to flare the lines myself. I kinda forgot, as I put the axle in almost 3 years ago. No, they're not leaking anywhere. Thinking more about new pads, or at least removing everything I've got and making sure nothing is glazed over.

But, still thinking about the brake upgrade. We'll see if I get any extra time between me working two jobs, my wife working full time, and both of us spending time with our two little girls.

I don't think using the stock caliper mounts would work out too well. They would limit your caliper choices and push the caliper out too far. They are just locate din the wrong place.