97 Jeep stalling

Not sure if this is where this goes but I was wanting to ask you guys some questions and tell you what I think about it. I have a 97 Cherokee that will not run. It stalls going down the road, when I stop, pull out in traffic and all that stuff. It idles rough and has no power what so ever to pull any type of a hill. If I'm driving it on an open road then I can run the air conditioner but if I stop in traffic it over heats enough to where I have to turn it off.

I've replaced the fuel pump, MAP sensor, sprayed carb cleaner down it and was getting ready to take it to the Jeep dealer today. I stayed up all night reading about the Jeep so I wouldnt get robbed to bad when I got there. I've heard all the horror stories about people going through the same thing, sometimes one thing will work, sometimes it dont. The screws being to long on the CPU, the CPU just being in a bad place and all other kinds of fix it from a bunch of different forums. They usually end with the people finally getting tired of trying and they take their Jeep to the Dealer and they replace a bunch of parts which never works and then they go and replace the computer for a price up in the thousands and it works.

I'll go ahead and tell you I'm not a mechanic in anyway, just someone trying to avoid putting anymore money into the thing and I want it fixed. Now this is what I think is wrong with it and I would really appreciate any feedback that you could give me. I've logged a lot of man hours into trying to figure this out.

I read somewhere that the great makers of Jeep have done a recall. My Jeep did not fit into that category at all. I didnt understand why at first but I think I figured it out. Here's a link for the recall.
http://www.jeep.com/universal/webselfservice/pdf/E22.pdf

Now this recall is for 1.5 million Jeeps and trucks from the year 96 on up. Its for the emission control and they just want to check the PCM and also make sure that your catalytic converter is working right so we can all breath fresh air. They make sure they add this though. "NOTE: This recall does not include the replacement of other exhaust system components. If other exhaust system components require replacement, the associated repair costs are your responsibility." By them saying that that means they are going to at least stick you with the oxygen sensor and its going to cost you a couple hundred bucks if not more.

Now I had already bought a Haynes book so I looked up the CAT and on the page before that its talking about the EGR valve on page 6-12. I figured thats going to be one of the many things I was going to have to replace so I might as well read about it. The EGR valve "is a back pressure or vacuum controlled device which regulates the amount of exhaust gas bled into the intake... The amount of gas recirculated is controlled by variations in vacuum and exhaust back pressure." I remember thinking that a lot of people that took their Jeep to a garage or asked for help online was told it sounded like a vacuum hose off or a hole in it.

Now here's the kicker. In paragraph 5 it says this. "Common engine problems associated with the EGR system is rough idling, stalling at idle, rough engine performance during light throttle application and stalling during deceleration." That is everything thats wrong with every ones Jeep. We all have those symptoms and it described my Jeep perfect. And what controls the EGR? Its back pressure from the exhaust. What will make a exhaust give you back pressure, a clogged Catalytic converter. What did Jeep recall, the Catalytic converter because they knew they didnt work and they knew they were going to tear up.

Now this is where my questions come in? Does that make any sense, is it possible to be that easy of a fix, to just replace the CAT on the thing and not have to replace thousands of dollars of parts? I read somewhere that you can check that by just loosening a couple of screws on the intake and letting some air get in and it should run better. Is this possible?

I think that Jeep has know this all the time it's been going on and they just didnt want to tell people that their Jeep is going to die on them. I'm sure they knew how to fix it but they would rather charge you thousands of dollars and act like its something else so they wouldnt have to recall any more Jeeps. They knew it was their fault and they already had to spend millions on it already and they wanted us Jeep owners to help kick in on the cost.

So what do you think? Its going to be a few days before I can get mine in the shop to get it replaced but for some reason I'm thinking thats going to work. I bet you money that I can replace that and nothing else and the thing is going to run. The CAT being clogged explains everything from the over heating when you're going slow to the no power on hills and just stalling for no reason. I also think that Chrysler has known this and has done everything possible to make us think its not their fault and avoid fixing our Jeeps for us.

Your 97 does not have EGR...

What is the date of the recall?

Consult the all mighty joe_peters! No seriously wait for him to chime in. The man's a genius when it comes to this stuff.

I went through a similar problem just recently. I had replaced Cat, downstream O2 sensor, TPS, with little to no help at all. The TPS helped for a few days then went right back to stalling. Before finally giving up I decided to make one more attempt at it by replacing the IAC (idle air control). The one I had taken out was all plugged with carbon and the spring was shot. The Jeep's been running fine for 2 weeks now aside from a slight stumble every now and then while going up steep inclines which leaves me to believe that something else is not working 100%. Like I said try replacing IAC and go from there its not that expensive of a part and seems to do the trick. I will subscribe to this thread so I can see how ya make out. Good Luck! and like 99 XJ says joe_peters is a genius!

Just a quick verification would be to pull the cat and reset the ECU. Check the cat and then turn the Jeep on to see if it runs any better. If the cat is clear then that's that. You just saved yourself $1000.

Start at the beginning with the simple, low cost, and obvious solutions:

-Put your Haynes manual in the local outhouse, that all it is good for.
-Perform a complete tune-up.
-Perform a complete cooling system service, flush and fill, rad cap, thermostat, fan clutch, radiator or water pump as needed.
-Have the cat converter inspected for blockage or matrix breadown.
-Use some SeaFoam, BG-44, or Techron Fuel Injector Cleaner.
-Clean the throttle body and Idle Air Controller.
-Load test the battery, a failing battery will cause hard starts, stalling, and other odd behaviors.
-Perform basic trouble shooting of the start and charge systems. Remove, clean, and firmly reconnect all the wires and cables to the battery, starter, and alternator. Look for corroded or damaged cables or connectors and replace as needed. Do the same for the grounding wires from the starter to engine block, and from the battery and engine to the Jeep's frame/body. Jeeps do not tolerate low voltage or poor grounds and the ECM/ECU may behave oddly until you remedy this.
-Test the Crankshaft Position Sensor

If you still have issues, a used ECU from the Junkyard is about $50-75.

Tim_MN said:

Start at the beginning with the simple, low cost, and obvious solutions:

-Put your Haynes manual in the local outhouse, that all it is good for.
-Perform a complete tune-up.
-Perform a complete cooling system service, flush and fill, rad cap, thermostat, fan clutch, radiator or water pump as needed.
-Have the cat converter inspected for blockage or matrix breadown.
-Use some SeaFoam, BG-44, or Techron Fuel Injector Cleaner.
-Clean the throttle body and Idle Air Controller.
-Load test the battery, a failing battery will cause hard starts, stalling, and other odd behaviors.
-Perform basic trouble shooting of the start and charge systems. Remove, clean, and firmly reconnect all the wires and cables to the battery, starter, and alternator. Look for corroded or damaged cables or connectors and replace as needed. Do the same for the grounding wires from the starter to engine block, and from the battery and engine to the Jeep's frame/body. Jeeps do not tolerate low voltage or poor grounds and the ECM/ECU may behave oddly until you remedy this.
-Test the Crankshaft Position Sensor

If you still have issues, a used ECU from the Junkyard is about $50-75.

Click to expand...

Now that is GENIUS! Seriously, those are the steps to take to arrive at the answer.

Few things:

Not all problems will throw a CEL--in other words there are codes likely stowed in the PCM, get a scanner/reader or have them read. Personally, unless you want to pay for the dealership owner's kids to go to Harvard spend a few bucks and buy one.

A vacuum gauge is one of the most overlooked diagnostic tools--for hobbyists, not for professionals. Here is how to read a vacuum gauge: http://www.classictruckshop.com/clubs/earlyburbs/projects/vac/uum.htm and it can quickly tell you if you have a restricted exhaust system--as back pressure builds then engine's ability to produce vacuum drops quickly, no vacuum and the engine can't pull in the fuel/air mixture.

One old Chrysler trick with electronic controlled transmission equipped vehicles with driveability issues is to unplug the TCU and drive it shifting manually. Many driveability issues can be transmission related.

So, roll up your sleeves, take care of the maintenance items, and work your way to the answer.

Actron has a small code reader for OBDII, the CP9125, that will clear codes and its only $47 on Amazon.com, and you can buy a vacuum gauge almost anywhere for under $20--for less than $70, less than an hour's shop labor time at most dealerships, you will have some tools that can save you a lot of bucks down the road.

Good luck, post up what you find.

Found this on how to fix it if anyone is interested.

http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f13/97-zj-stalling-not-fixed-after-6-months-help-please-522719/

o-gauge-steamer said:

Your 97 does not have EGR...

What is the date of the recall?

Click to expand...

You're right, EGR's were from 1984-1990. Here's a link that tells more about the Chrysler recall.

http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f13/97-zj-stalling-not-fixed-after-6-months-help-please-522719/

This recall was for Jeeps between the years 96 and 2001. They recalled 500,000 vehicles in that recall, extended the warranties for another 700,000 vehicles, then sent letters out to over 300,000 more to let them know about potential catalytic converter problems. Thats 1,500,000 defective vehicles they put out on the road.

I was wrong about the EGRs but if you have a defective cat on your car then your car isnt going to be able to breath. It's going to clog your car up with Carbon, mess up your O2 sensors, your MAP, MAT, TPS sensors and every other sensors that are also connected to your computer which it will also mess up.

It can also mess up your transmission as well. A blocked catalytic converter can cause symptoms of slipping, a bad PCS, a bad PCM, a bad TCC, and a whole host of others. You have to drive it a lot harder to get the same performance out of it and that will tear it up a lot faster than normal.

I think that all the problems people are having with their Jeeps have started out because their catalytic converters were not doing their job and that part made the rest of the parts fail. Chrysler pretty much sold millions of cars out there with a potato stuck in the tail pipe and didnt tell us about it because they didnt want to have to fix it.


Does that make any sense or is it just me? Wouldnt a clogged muffler cause all the problems that people are having with their cars to where they just stall out when you're driving them? Wouldnt it mess up all the sensors and the computers they were hooked to? Thats why they dont know what exactly is tore up on your car because it could of tore up anything. Thats why one car can be fixed one way and another car be fixed the other way. If they never had a defective catalytic converter on them in the first place then they would of never had the problems they are having now. Right? What else could explain all the Jeeps that no one can get to run with out dropping thousands of dollars into?

I think that if you havent had problems with your Cat yet that its just a matter of time before it does mess up or tears something else up in your car. I've had old cars before and never had to clean carbon out of them. If you still have one of the recalls then I would go ahead and get it out before it turns into a lot of money.

Like I said before, I dont know anything about being a mechanic, just what I've been reading the last few days. Tell me if I'm off base here because I dont know for sure. If I am right though then I think Chrysler needs to man up and extend that recall to a lot more people than that million and a half. They knew damn well what was going to happen and I dont think that we should have to pay money out of our pockets for their mistakes.

As mentioned, a clogged cat can be EASILY diagnosed with a vacuum gauge and the ability to read it.

Yes, clogged exhaust happens but it isn't the root cause of many driveability issues.

You can guess all you want but I would recommend that you follow Tim and Joe's strategy above. That is methodical troubleshooting.

Yeah, I'm sure of it. Chrysler sold millions of cars with defective catalytic converters on them and only recalled the bare amount they had too. Google "defective catalytic converters" and read about what they do to your cars. Here's one of the first ones that came up, see if it doesnt sound familiar.

" PLUGGED CONVERTER
A partially plugged converter will create a restriction in the exhaust system. This, in turn, will cause an increase in exhaust backpressure that can strangle engine performance, particularly at highway speeds. The engine may start and idle normally, but lack high speed power. Fuel economy may also be down.
At first, you may suspect low fuel pressure or a plugged fuel filter (which can cause similar symptoms). A simple fuel pressure check with a gauge will tell you if idle pressure is within specifications, and a flow test will tell you if the fuel pump is capable of delivering enough fuel volume to meet the engine’s demands. You may also replace the fuel filter in an effort to cure your customer’s problem. But when the problem persists, it’s obviously not fuel-related. More likely, it’s an exhaust restriction.
An exhaust restriction created by a partially plugged converter can also backup heat in the engine, causing the engine to run hot and possibly overheat. If this is the case, you may suspect a cooling system problem. A low coolant level, coolant leak (internal or external), stuck thermostat, defective cooling fan, clogged radiator, kinked radiator hose or bad water pump can all make an engine run hot and overheat. So if you’ve checked all of these things and found no problem, you may be scratching your head wondering what’s going on?
The fact is, many technicians don’t consider the converter as a possible cause of engine performance problems or overheating until they’ve exhausted all the other possibilities. So maybe a better diagnostic approach would be to check the converter first when an engine is exhibiting symptoms that may be due to a converter restriction.
" http://www.brakeandfrontend.com/Article/38643/catalytic_converter_diagnosis.aspx


I'm telling you, all the problems that we are having with our Jeeps is because Chrysler sold us Jeeps with defective parts on them. They got caught but only fixed a few of them and left the rest of us holding the bag.

birchlakeXJ said:

As mentioned, a clogged cat can be EASILY diagnosed with a vacuum gauge and the ability to read it.

Yes, clogged exhaust happens but it isn't the root cause of many driveability issues.

You can guess all you want but I would recommend that you follow Tim and Joe's strategy above. That is methodical troubleshooting.

Click to expand...

No man, you're wrong. It can be if thats what you're looking for but its well known that you dont know what you're looking for. Thats why a lot of parts get replaced when they dont need it. I'll post this link again that I just found. You have to admit that it does seem strangely familiar dont it?


"" PLUGGED CONVERTER
A partially plugged converter will create a restriction in the exhaust system. This, in turn, will cause an increase in exhaust backpressure that can strangle engine performance, particularly at highway speeds. The engine may start and idle normally, but lack high speed power. Fuel economy may also be down.
At first, you may suspect low fuel pressure or a plugged fuel filter (which can cause similar symptoms). A simple fuel pressure check with a gauge will tell you if idle pressure is within specifications, and a flow test will tell you if the fuel pump is capable of delivering enough fuel volume to meet the engine’s demands. You may also replace the fuel filter in an effort to cure your customer’s problem. But when the problem persists, it’s obviously not fuel-related. More likely, it’s an exhaust restriction.
An exhaust restriction created by a partially plugged converter can also backup heat in the engine, causing the engine to run hot and possibly overheat. If this is the case, you may suspect a cooling system problem. A low coolant level, coolant leak (internal or external), stuck thermostat, defective cooling fan, clogged radiator, kinked radiator hose or bad water pump can all make an engine run hot and overheat. So if you’ve checked all of these things and found no problem, you may be scratching your head wondering what’s going on?
The fact is, many technicians don’t consider the converter as a possible cause of engine performance problems or overheating until they’ve exhausted all the other possibilities. So maybe a better diagnostic approach would be to check the converter first when an engine is exhibiting symptoms that may be due to a converter restriction.
" http://www.brakeandfrontend.com/Arti...diagnosis.aspx"

Here's a copy of the recall and the defective catalytic converters they sold us.

DaimlerChrysler Corporation Settlement Fact Sheet

• Background
• Violations
• Civil Penalties
• Supplemental Environmental Projects
• Remediation/Injunctive Relief

Background: The United States, on behalf of the Environmental Protection Agency, filed a complaint in the U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia asserting that DaimlerChrysler Corporation (Chrysler) installed defective catalytic converters on certain Jeeps and Dodge trucks manufactured between 1996 and 2001 (subject vehicles) but failed to file defect reports concerning these defective catalytic converters within fifteen working days of determining that the defect existed on 25 or more vehicles, as required by the regulations. Chrysler’s catalytic converters are defective because a percentage of them experience a mechanical erosion, under certain conditions, of the catalyst substrate over the useful life of the vehicle. The mechanical erosion causes the catalyst substrate material, under certain conditions, to detach from the catalyst shell, begin to rattle around inside the shell, and break into pieces. In some vehicles, the catalyst substrate pieces are blown out the vehicle’s tailpipe leaving an empty catalyst shell and a gross emitting vehicle. In addition, a portion of the subject vehicles are equipped with defective on-board diagnostic (OBD) systems which fail to detect deteriorated or empty catalytic converters.
Violations: Chrysler failed to file defect reports concerning defective catalytic converters installed on the subject vehicles. Manufacturers of new motor vehicles must file an emission defect information report with the United States Environmental Protection Agency not more than 15 working days after an emission-related defect is found to affect 25 or more vehicles or engines of the same model year.
Civil Penalties: Chrysler will pay $1 million in civil penalties to the United States. In a separate settlement, Chrysler will pay the State of California $1 million to resolve parallel state claims regarding California-certified vehicles.
Supplemental Environmental Project: Chrysler will implement a $3 million Supplemental Environmental Project to retrofit in-use heavy-duty diesel engines with cleaner technology.
Remediation/Injunctive Relief:
The following vehicles – approximately 500,000 in total – will be recalled to correct a defective OBD system and to inspect and replace, if necessary, the catalytic converter:
1996 Jeep Cherokee with 4.0 liter engine
1996 Jeep Grand Cherokee with 4.0 liter engine
1997 Jeep Wrangler with 2.5 liter engine, built in July 1996 and later
1997 Jeep Cherokee with 2.5 liter engine
1997 Dodge Dakota with 2.5 liter engine
1998 Jeep Wrangler with 2.5 liter engine
1998 Jeep Cherokee with 2.5 liter engine
1998 Dodge Dakota with 2.5 liter engine
The following vehicles – approximately 700,000 in total – will have warranties for their catalytic converters extended to 10 years or 120,000 miles, whichever occurs first. Vehicles in this category, that have already exceeded 10 years or 120,000 miles, will receive an extended catalytic converter warranty of one year with unlimited mileage from the date of the letter to the owner, or two years with unlimited mileage if the vehicle fails a state emissions inspection. (Vehicles that have had the improved catalytic converter installed are excluded.)
1996 Jeep Cherokee with 2.5 liter engine
1996 Dodge Ram Van/Wagon with 3.9 liter engine
1996 Dodge Ram Pickup Truck with 3.9 liter engine
1996 Dodge Ram Pickup Truck with 5.2 liter engine
1996 Dodge Ram Pickup Truck with 5.9 liter engine
1997 Dodge Ram Van/Wagon with 3.9 liter engine
1997 Dodge Dakota with 3.9 liter engine
1997 Dodge Ram Pickup Truck with 3.9 liter engine
1998 Dodge Ram Pickup Truck with 3.9 liter engine
1999 Dodge Dakota with 3.9 liter engine
1999 Dodge Ram Pickup Truck with 5.2 liter engine
The owners of the following vehicles – approximately 6,100 in total – will have warranties for their catalytic converters extended for at least one year, without mileage limitation, after the date of the letter to the owner. These vehicles have an original catalytic converter warranty of 5 years or 50,000 miles. (Vehicles that have had the improved catalytic converter installed are excluded.)
2000 (EMM) Heavy-Duty Dodge Ram Pickup Truck with 5.9 liter engine
2000 Heavy-Duty Dodge Ram Pickup Truck with 8.0 liter engine
The owners of the following vehicles – approximately 300,000 in total – will receive notification letters about the potential catalytic converter problem as well as a reminder of the vehicle’s original catalytic converter warranty coverage of 8 years or 80,000 miles, whichever occurs first:
1999 Dodge Ram Van/Wagon with 3.9 liter engine
1999 Dodge Ram Pickup Truck with 3.9 liter engine
1999 Dodge Ram Van/Wagon with 5.2 liter engine
1999 Dodge Dakota with 5.2 liter engine
1999 (EML) Dodge Ram Van/Wagon with 5.9 liter engine
1999 (EML) Dodge Dakota with 5.9 liter engine
1999 (EML) Dodge Ram Pickup Truck with 5.9 liter engine
2001 (EMM) Heavy-Duty Dodge Ram Pickup Truck with 5.9 liter engine
2001 Heavy-Duty Dodge Ram Pickup Truck with 8.0 liter engine

does your converter glow bright orange when the problem is present?

Shorty said:

does your converter glow bright orange when the problem is present?

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Never noticed it but I did notice that if I was in town or sitting at red lights then it would start to over heat. It has a new radiator and everything else in it so it shouldnt have over heated. Wouldnt a clogged Cat do that?

Assuming that you are not conning us to start with, why are you so obsessed with the "clogged cat"?

Two of the better diagnostic minds on the forum have told you what to do to begin solving your problem in an orderly way. If you don't want to do that, you can go low tech and disconnect the cat at the front end (admittedly not always the easiest of tasks) and see if that fixes your problem.

Pelican said:

Assuming that you are not conning us to start with, why are you so obsessed with the "clogged cat"?

Two of the better diagnostic minds on the forum have told you what to do to begin solving your problem in an orderly way. If you don't want to do that, you can go low tech and disconnect the cat at the front end (admittedly not always the easiest of tasks) and see if that fixes your problem.

Click to expand...

Because my Jeep is sitting out there and I cant drive it. I dont have a ton of money to throw into it so I thought I would look around and see if I could find out what caused it to tear up. From what I found out it seems to be a defective cat converter on it. The stalling, the not starting, the rough idle and the over heating can all be caused by a clogged cat. Then I find where Chrysler recalled a few of them and kind of swept the rest of us under the rug. That kind of makes me a little mad. It wouldnt of been so bad if they just told us to fix the cat before it tore the rest of our car up. I could handle that but they have made us guess at what was wrong with it, they have charged us lots of money to put parts on it that doesnt fix it and they havent offered to make it right.

It all makes sense if you stand back and look at it. Look at all the people that has suffered from this defective part that didnt need to. Just Google "stalled Jeep" and listen to the thousands left standing there with their pants down. Well I'm one of those people and I dont like it.

I do like the advise you've been given thus far. But if you want to take a stab at the problem without performing all the others in that order, here is what I would do...Replace the CPS. -B

JHicks0071 said:

Never noticed it but I did notice that if I was in town or sitting at red lights then it would start to over heat. It has a new radiator and everything else in it so it shouldnt have over heated. Wouldnt a clogged Cat do that?

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Weak/failing fan clutch.

JHicks0071 said:

From what I found out it seems to be a defective cat converter on it.

IS YOUR VEHICLE COVERED UNDER THE RECALL? IF NOT, THAT MEANS YOUR YEAR/ENGINE DID NOT HAVE THE DEFECTIVE PART INSTALLED. THE DEFECTIVE PART WAS IDENTIFIED AND THOSE VEHICLES WERE RECALLED.

The stalling, the not starting, the rough idle and the over heating can all be caused by a clogged cat.

ALL OF THOSE ISSUES CAN BE THE RESULT OF OTHER MORE COMMON PROBLEMS THAN A CLOGGED CAT.

Then I find where Chrysler recalled a few of them and kind of swept the rest of us under the rug.

THE GOVERNMENT REQUIRED THAT CHRYSLER REPLACE THE DEFECTIVE CATALYTIC CONVERTERS--WAS THE GOVERNMENT IN ON THE CONSPIRACY TO DENY YOU A NEW CAT?

It wouldnt of been so bad if they just told us to fix the cat before it tore the rest of our car up.

WHAT EXACTLY DO YOU THINK A CLOGGED CAT WOULD "TEAR UP" ON YOUR VEHICLE? I'VE RUN INTO A LOT OF CLOGGED CATs OVER THE YEARS, NOT ONE VEHICLE WAS "TORE UP" FROM IT, AND DROVE HAPPILY DOWN THE ROAD AFTER THE CAT WAS REPLACED

Click to expand...

You have been told in earlier posts how to determine if the CAT is clogged, either test it or don't--your choice.

Good luck.