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front rail damage, need advice

acrid

NAXJA Forum User
Location
PDX
so here's a link to the pics....
http://www.naxja.org/forum/showpost.php?p=975170&postcount=19


and what happened....
http://www.naxja.org/forum/showpost.php?p=975080&postcount=16


I am trying to figure out the best way to get this repaired. I would like to stiffen the frame rails at the front so that this doesn't happen again. I noticed that the passenger side is crumpled slightly vs. the driver's side, making me think that the steering box took some of the jolt and kept the rail from folding as it sits so near the bracket for the bumper.

My issue is that i would like to extend the bumper beyond what it shows in the pics with the 3 bolt set up. I would like to go to a 5 bolt dice style setup or something similar, my worry is that i could possibly do worse damage to the front rails further back where it would be harder to repair, but i still don't like the fact that the mounts just can't handle the leverage from the force exterted on the bumper from that accident. Granted i don't "plan" on hitting a divider again anytime soon, but i was curious as to what whose of you who have modified the front rails, would suggest.

I have researched and I think that something like a c-rok type plate on each side welded to the frame, then attach the bumper brace to that. No damage was done to the bumper, just the rails, being the weaker of the two. I worry that if i more the bracing further back I will fold the rails too far down (past the sway bar mounts) getting into a irrepairable area. As it is now, the damage doesn't reflect onto anything other than the bumper, nothing else attachs to this point other than a quarter panel brace on each side, beside that nothing is wrong....

It'll be a while before i can fix this,(gotta replace my drag link and tie rod joints soon) it's still rock solid just looks a little funny. Heck, least its still fixable.

any advise is appreciated,

btw, she's still straight, absolutely no noticable damage to the frame geometry, no mechanical damage (got out the straight edge and a tape measure this morning).
 
pics are not working. atleast not for me
 
Extending the mounts would help, but like you said you can wind up doing damage to the framerail further back. I would consider doing that but definitely run a bottom plate on the framerail, nutplate on the inside of the framerail to bolt it to. Putting steel on the outside of the framerails is strong only on one planed. Adding an additional piece to the underside not only strengthens your framerails as well as your mounts by A LOT.

When I made my own bumper MANY years before I got into this stuff, it had the usual thick, long framerails on the sides. Ditched it, hit a big culvert...bumper held up alright but wrinkled my framerails on both sides just past the mounts. And let me tell you how much that sucked to fix.
 
good thing your werent hurt. i work in a collision shop and even though im a painter i would suggest against strengthening the frame rails if you are using this as a dd. maybe if it was a trail rig it would be a different story. like your said not only will it transfer damage further back but if you were to be in another wreck/collision, the vehicle is not going to crash like it was ment to crash and possible seriously injuring your or somebody else riding with you, because that damage, will go farther back, and possibly way farther back to the pasanger/driver compartment . Not saying that it will but its a possiblility. i think you should straighten the way it is. I dig your jeep though, i like the bumper and the way you set up your front fog lights, do you have any pre-wreck pics?
 
sjbond67 said:
....I dig your jeep though, i like the bumper and the way you set up your front fog lights, do you have any pre-wreck pics?

Thanks man...

there's a few pre-wreck pics....

so, i'm leaning to just add a couple bands of 3/16 about 4 inches back, that would stop some leverage on the vertical axis, but would still bend under extreme pressure. I think that a compromise between stiffness, with a breaking point would keep the pressure from being focalized on one particular point.

One reason why I think i can still stiffen it some is that i also hammered the rear, granted no as hard, but more than hard enough to do some damage, yet with the rear's 8 bolt pattern (4x2) no reinforcement, still no denting or crumpling. The other is that the steering box actually stopped the crumple on the driver's side, yet the passenger side has nothing to help spread the load over a great area....

I'm leaning towards AJ's suggestion... just enough to help stiffen the lateral forces but not transmit it all into one spot further back.

i'll post a design pic when i get one drawn up...

thanks.

preaccident.jpg



DSC01540.jpg


xjrightangle.jpg
 
AJsArmor said:
When I made my own bumper MANY years before I got into this stuff, it had the usual thick, long framerails on the sides. Ditched it, hit a big culvert...bumper held up alright but wrinkled my framerails on both sides just past the mounts. And let me tell you how much that sucked to fix.

lol, sounds like similar damage, honestly i'm just happy that this is all that happened. Did it look anything like my pics?? i actually did some more looking into the damage with the last of the daylight, and i had a dental mirror to angle into the rail and it looks like the bolts cut and then bound up on the torn rail, like a butter knife in cardboard..... hmmmm.
 
cyberbackpacker said:
acrid, what kind of bumper is that? Is it a warrior?

honestly, i don't know who made it, i know when it was installed by the previous owner - 080401, paid 260.00 for it in the arlington-bellingham area in snohomish county washington. i bought it on 121603. the old owner said someone made it for him, he didn't like most of the aftermarket bumpers out there, because of most didn't have side protection like this one. i think he said it was his first bumper (the maker's), but i'm not sure.... definitely home made. i'd love to know myself, perhaps the maker will view this thread.... hmmm.
 
Pull that bumper off. Get a hammer and dolly and straighten the bumper mount on the uniframe out. Get C-ROK frame braces for each side and tie them into you bumper.
http://www.c-rok.com/sb.html
The C-ROK braces have inside and outside plates that sandwich the frame rail and 4 additional 1/2" through bolts for a total of 7 per side including the puny stock bumper mounting bolts. Thats 14 bolts holding you bumper mount on to a much bigger area of frame!
IM000014.JPG

IM000017.JPG

It will also keep you steering box from ripping through your frame. Trust me this will be plenty strong. I've stalled my 10,500# winch stuck in a snow drift yanked out big trucks and no damage.
IM000015.JPG

That bumper looks nice but IMHO has a lame mounting system. A winch would have ripped it clean off if you were stuck bad and attached it there. Good luck getting it done and make you jeep better.

 
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Or look into a Rigidco.com bumper/mount.
 
XJCreeper said:
That bumper looks nice but IMHO has a lame mounting system. A winch would have ripped it clean off if you were stuck bad and attached it there. Good luck getting it done and make you jeep better.



Thanks for telling me something I already know!!!! :worship: hitting a concrete barrier at 55 mph is hardly wimpy, imho.

The whole purpose of this thread is to FIX the problem.

Your pics are exactly what I was looking for, so thanks for the help....:cheers:
 
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Don't pull the bumper just yet.

First, have the front drive train alighnment checked. Don't just go by feel. It is possible to have tweaked the "frame" somewhat and it should show up on the alighnment machine. Also check ALL the sheet metal for proper fitment, ie., hood to fender and cowel, fender to door etc. If there is any miss alighnment you've probably got damage elsewere.

If it checks out OK, then you can try to straighten out the rails, but it won't be with a hammer and dolly. That rail is not your typical sheet metal. You'll need to put a good "strain" on the rail in the opposite direction of the force that bent it. If the bumper is a fairly heavy gage metal, you may be able to hook to it in some fashion, perhaps the pull tabs. It would be better if you can hook to the lower part of the bumper. That would help apply an upward/twisting force. If you've got a friend with a winch, that may provide enough force to alow you to use a hammer to 'massage' out that buckle. Realize that you will probably have to tie the XJ to something to prevent it from sliding while applying the force needed to staighten it. What ever you do, be very careful working around anything where force is applied. You only have one head....that counts. :gee: (30 yrs body shop experience speaking here - I've had a few knocks, but lucky so far)

Remember how much force it took to bend the rail? It will reguire that much force to straighten it. If your lucky and the bumper is stout enough, you may be able to straighten/alighn it satisfactorly without removing it. If there is any miss alighnment besides the front of the rail, or you want it "perfect", your best bet is to take it to a good body/frame shop. Hope you've got insurance.

Mike
 
thanks, i appreciate the advice especially from a body guy, as experience counts more than anything else, hence my posting before removing anything. I was worried that if i removed the bumper, i'd see a each rail go there own separate ways...

body shop for a check, then fix it myself, depending on the damage. I don't think (with the bumper still on) that any major damage was done, at least as far as a tape measure and square would show... I'm no body specialist.

no issues with any door, rear hatch, hood, radiator, grill. alignment seems fine, no different than before, still drives in a straight line when i let go the wheel in a flat parking lot. no gaps in the seams that i can see. nothing that would indicate that it needed a stretch on the rack.

thanks.
 
acrid said:
Thanks for telling me something I already know!!!! :worship: hitting a concrete barrier at 55 mph is hardly wimpy, imho.

The whole purpose of this thread is to FIX the problem.

Your pics are exactly what I was looking for, so thanks for the help....:cheers:

You welcome for the pics! Let me know if you need anymore. I love laying under the jeep and occasionally will come up for another beer. Fixing it with the bumper still on sounds like a royal PITA and a pre-alignment no fun for the pocket book. I do not have 30 years of body shop experience an Mikey has a good point. If your not comfortable about doing the repair yourself take it to one. I've done plenty of body work myself have friends that own a few body shops and do know it's not for everyone and doing it right takes experience.

Mikey is right, that frame needs to be staight and true without the bumper on it to be right. If the bumper is the only thing holding it straight now you've got problems. If you ask the estimator the right questions you can find how best to fix the problem from him for free. From the pics it looks like the impact was mainly to the bumper and damage was forward of the radiator support, hopefully, but I may be wrong. Taking it to a body shop as said so they can at least give it a closer look with a trained eye. If you ask the right question when the estimator is going over it you can find out what it will take to repair it.

I bent my drivers side rail a few years ago when I hit a tree with the stock bumper and bent the drivers side of the frame real good and the steering box. It sucks when this happens and had to take it apart and fix it all on the XJ black budget.

But playing hard with my XJ and working hard is what I do. With regular trips to the Sierra trails, Hollister, and Frank Raines damage does happen and I gotta run this rig on a tight budget that won't get my wifes attention. Thats why I own a shop and tools and she doesn't know what I'm doing to the beast. For me a BFH a dolly, clamps, various piece of steel and a comealong was the fix. The winch is a great idea too. Again good luck getting it fixed and hopefully this repair to your XJ is not that much $$$ for you. Once you get it back to straight an true give Greg at C-ROK a call. He's a great guy and can get you hooked up with a great mounting system for that nice bumper as well as make the frame uber strong in the front. Keep us posted and again good luck!:sunshine:
 
XJCreeper said:
If the bumper is the only thing holding it straight now you've got problems. If you ask the estimator the right questions you can find how best to fix the problem from him for free. From the pics it looks like the impact was mainly to the bumper and damage was forward of the radiator support, hopefully, but I may be wrong.

The bumper bent down enough to avoid hitting the radiator support. Only the one crumple on the passenger side, the driver's side luckily stopped pushing in right at the top bolt on the steering box. The bolts cut through the frame rail slightly and that is how the bumper bent down. The right side pushed in about 1/2 inch from lack of support, too much leverage without enough support on the frame rail, 1/4 inch angle iron isn't going anywhere. Absolutely no warping past the first 6 inches of the rails, and only on the passenger side. I will have to go and have some new metal welded into the torn area, but will probably wait to get the bumper mounts from c-rok.

Where the radiator support butts up to the frame rail, there is some slight shearing at the rail where it is mounted, minor issues considering. I'm going to try to straighten using the rear tabs chained down to a firm support and use a come-along to pull the bumper just to see if it is effective. The bumper is still centered on the frame. No noticable alignment issues and no damage under the frame rail at the steering box.

I have a few friends that have been doing body work for about 15 years, nothing like 30 +, but not too shabby, mostly euro vehicles, but they do have acces to a frame rack. I will remove the bumper first and see if it changes any of the geometry, I shouldn't be able to get the bumper back on if it is a twisted frame scenario. If I can get the bumper back on without having to jam it back on, i'll use the come-along to see if I can pull it out myself. I will take it to a body shop if I can't get the bumper on due to more damage than I see.

On a side note, I have been thinking about that weak @ss mount since I bought the vehicle and slacked on correcting the issue. Don't put off till tomorrow, what you should be doing today!!! If I had followed my instint, I wouldn't have to be fixing this now.

Thanks to all who took the time to help me out with this issue, I very much appreciate all the feedback and support. :NAXJA: rocks.

It'll be a while before I can afford to fix this, but I'll post up when I get the job done, with step by steps and pics if possible, surely this will help someone else out, maybe prevent this from happening to someone else....:smsoap:
 
Sound like you've got all you ducks lined up to fix it. You can't go wrong with the C-ROK system. Helped me out. Boy I was stress when I FUBAR'd mine front end. If anything the C-ROK plates will be a good template to help you straighten it out as they were for me. Once you can line all the holes up to the C-ROK inner and outer plates then it'll be damned close to before it happened. Make it stronger and yours worries will fall behind you.....after your XJ mows through it!:cheers:
 
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