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Yes, another HP D44 build thread, just a few Q's

T

TheSandman

NAXJA Forum User
Location
Richmond, VA
So I'm starting to collect my parts for my front HP D44 build and just wanted to make sure I have everything straight.

My plan is to build a HP D44 on a somewhat budget, only going aftermarket when needed. I plan on running normal (no high steer) steering. I plan on using ford hubs and rotors to keep the 5x5.5 bolt pattern. Can I just use all ford outside of the inner C's? Meaning spindles, brakes, etc? I know most guys recommend chevy small bearing spindles, chevy caliper brackets and calipers, what's the benefit over the ford setup?

Also, stock outers are 19 spline, I've read that warn makes a 30 hub kit, where can I get ford 30 spline outers? Is it worth it to use them with stock wagoneer inner shafts? I plan on running longfield joints.

Next is bracketry, I know RE and clayton sells a full bracket kit. I was planning on running T&T's truss, but after reading some, looks like most people are having trouble with installing the truss and the axle being off center and the track bar mount will cause bumpsteer because of the short track bar. First off, isn't the coil bucket mounted on the truss? I understand you have to move the buckets out to center the axle?

I have 35's right now, will probably step up to 36 Irok's when they wear out, or even 37's at the absolute most. I'm a moderate wheeler, never heavy on the gas. I'm planning on running 4.88's and either a selectable locker, detroit, or even a lock right. The rear I have is a XJ D44 with a true trac.



Any comments or critiques are appreciated.
 
I just bought a hp 44 out of a 79 bronco and I need the bracketry too. The t&t truss and coil buckets are seperate. Also Ive noticed that some will use the stock trackbar location, i don't really like it due to the bends in the trackbar. Compared to the simple strait design of the above axle mount!
IMG_0374.jpg
 
crystalcleanteam said:
I just bought a hp 44 out of a 79 bronco and I need the bracketry too. The t&t truss and coil buckets are seperate. Also Ive noticed that some will use the stock trackbar location, i don't really like it due to the bends in the trackbar. Compared to the simple strait design of the above axle mount!
IMG_0374.jpg
Click to expand...

So I'd have to buy the truss AND the buckets seperately then. Hmmm, I may just go with the bracket kit and pass on the truss. I don't think I'm gonna be wheeling hard enough for a truss.

You gotta build thread for your rig?
 
I put in a D44 into my rig. As far as swaping everthing from to 5 5.5 There shouldntbe any problem. (Im 8 lug). Im not sure if there is any difference between chevy or Ford other than size/pattern.

I used the tnt truss. When you buy the truss (base price) then you have to add on the coil buckets, track bar, lower control arm mounts. I went with it for ease. Just set it on there and weld up. Saves alot of time, from trying to get everyhting straight. what ever suites your needs

saves time=more cash
less cash= more time/work

On the outer shafts. Ive read alot of the outers breaking at the ear and not the spline, so i kept mine 19 sp. I did buy a set of nitro shafts and ctms, so ill see what breaks now.

Tire size. Well yall can flame away, im running 40 GY mtr's on H2 wheels. I think you will be fine with 36/37's. Im running 4.88 because thats what I had lying around. Mine is a trailer queen so i cant tell you how it goes down the road.
 
911xj/tj said:
I put in a D44 into my rig. As far as swaping everthing from to 5 5.5 There shouldntbe any problem. (Im 8 lug). Im not sure if there is any difference between chevy or Ford other than size/pattern.

I used the tnt truss. When you buy the truss (base price) then you have to add on the coil buckets, track bar, lower control arm mounts. I went with it for ease. Just set it on there and weld up. Saves alot of time, from trying to get everyhting straight. what ever suites your needs

saves time=more cash
less cash= more time/work

On the outer shafts. Ive read alot of the outers breaking at the ear and not the spline, so i kept mine 19 sp. I did buy a set of nitro shafts and ctms, so ill see what breaks now.

Tire size. Well yall can flame away, im running 40 GY mtr's on H2 wheels. I think you will be fine with 36/37's. Im running 4.88 because thats what I had lying around. Mine is a trailer queen so i cant tell you how it goes down the road.
Click to expand...

Thanks man, yeah 37's are gonna be my limit, nothing bigger. Was your D44 locked? I'm trying to figure out what I want to put in it? I would like a selectable, but I'm running out of funds for a $900 OX setup, so I may settle with a detroit truetrac or a detroit locker.

What track bar mount did you use? Did you have any problems with it? What about with the T&T truss, did your axle sit off center?
 
ya I have an ARB. I would go ARB any day over ox. Getting a full case locker over a lunchbox type will be better/stronger which ever way you go. Im using over the OTK track bar mount.

axle sits ok, only decent pic i have for now

IMAG0110.jpg
 
POLAR_JEEP_04 said:
I just bought...
http://www.ballisticfabrication.com/XJ--TJ-Jeep-combo-bracket-upgrade-kit_p_1542.html

and this...
http://rustysoffroad.com/mm5/mercha...s&Product_Code=RC-UCM-FX&Category_Code=BP-B_S

havent figured out a track bar mount yet because I'm not sure where im going with my steering yet.
Click to expand...


Hmm, yeah I think if I pass on the truss, I'm gonna go with either RE's upper CA mounts or Clayton's, not sure if I want a JJ or rubber bushing. Pretty sure I'll go with T&T's coil buckets too. The RE kit is nice because it comes with all the mounts and everything.

I dunno................
 
The main reason for using Chevy parts is to achieve high steer. Unless you purchase aftermarket knuckles, (I.E. Crane Hi Clearance, Reid Racing/Dedenbear) you need Chevy flat top knuckles in order to attach high steer arms. If you plan on using the stock TRE mounts, you will be fine with all the Ford outer stuff.

In regards to shafts, you're not gaining any strength over stock unless you upgrade. Stock Dana 44 shafts/u-joints are the same as the Dana 30. I noticed you plan on Longfield U-joints. I would highly recommend you consider some sort of chromoly shaft to accompany your Longfield's.

Also, I would stick with the 19 spline outers. You mentioned building on a budget. I'd take the extra cash you considered spending on the warn pieces, and put them somewhere else. Example - ARB, Chromoly shafts, etc. With a build like this, you always have to consider where your weak point will be, and where you WANT your weak point to be. What do you think will be the easiest fix on the trail? Personally, I would prefer the hub, because it's one of the outermost pieces of the assembly. On the HP 44 I'm building, I want my R&P, shafts and u-joints to be able to take the most abuse.

You also mentioned Waggy shafts. Do you plan to narrow the housing, or do you plan on running full-width? I narrowed my housing to post 80's Wagoneer width. However, if I was to do this all over again, I would narrow the housing to 03-06 Jeep Rubicon width. In doing so, you cut an equal amount of tube off each side, and you won't encounter the issue of the axle being off-center. Unfortunately, you run into an issue of availability with Junkyard shafts. Wagoneer shafts are going to be easier to find than that of the Rubicon shafts. Again, I'd strongly suggest you pursue aftermarket shafts anyway.

Like mentioned earlier, the extra coin you put into certain areas, the easier it will be in the long run. Rubicon Express, Clayton, TNT, Ballistic Fabrication all make great bracketry. It all depends on what you're looking for, and how much you're willing to spend. You could always carefully cut the pieces off a Dana 30 and re-attach those to the housing. Another recommendation though - Stock orientation for coil spring perches place the coils 2" in front of the axle. If you do plan to go with 35" tires or larger, I would highly recommend you make the coil springs sit directly over the axle, rather than in front of. Yes, you can always adjust how far forward the axle sits, but with anything over a 35" tire, room between the tire and the body becomes limited. The extra 2" of room you gain is really worth it. Matt (Starboard M) did this on his build. Link if you haven't seen it:

http://www.naxja.org/forum/showthread.php?t=993467

For reference, a few links you should definitely look through if you haven't already.

Mr. N's Dana 44 knowledge base. Read this, study this, know this. This will answer a lot of your questions.

http://77cj.littlekeylime.com/web_rs44.html

Dana 44 Tech:

http://www.naxja.org/forum/showthread.php?t=52219

Cruzin Illusion's build threads:

http://www.naxja.org/forum/showthread.php?t=902015
http://www.naxja.org/forum/showthread.php?t=907435

Aftermarket Axle Directory:

http://www.naxja.org/forum/showthread.php?p=243542738

Scott
 
Seiler said:
The main reason for using Chevy parts is to achieve high steer. Unless you purchase aftermarket knuckles, (I.E. Crane Hi Clearance, Reid Racing/Dedenbear) you need Chevy flat top knuckles in order to attach high steer arms. If you plan on using the stock TRE mounts, you will be fine with all the Ford outer stuff.

In regards to shafts, you're not gaining any strength over stock unless you upgrade. Stock Dana 44 shafts/u-joints are the same as the Dana 30. I noticed you plan on Longfield U-joints. I would highly recommend you consider some sort of chromoly shaft to accompany your Longfield's.

Also, I would stick with the 19 spline outers. You mentioned building on a budget. I'd take the extra cash you considered spending on the warn pieces, and put them somewhere else. Example - ARB, Chromoly shafts, etc. With a build like this, you always have to consider where your weak point will be, and where you WANT your weak point to be. What do you think will be the easiest fix on the trail? Personally, I would prefer the hub, because it's one of the outermost pieces of the assembly. On the HP 44 I'm building, I want my R&P, shafts and u-joints to be able to take the most abuse.

You also mentioned Waggy shafts. Do you plan to narrow the housing, or do you plan on running full-width? I narrowed my housing to post 80's Wagoneer width. However, if I was to do this all over again, I would narrow the housing to 03-06 Jeep Rubicon width. In doing so, you cut an equal amount of tube off each side, and you won't encounter the issue of the axle being off-center. Unfortunately, you run into an issue of availability with Junkyard shafts. Wagoneer shafts are going to be easier to find than that of the Rubicon shafts. Again, I'd strongly suggest you pursue aftermarket shafts anyway.

Like mentioned earlier, the extra coin you put into certain areas, the easier it will be in the long run. Rubicon Express, Clayton, TNT, Ballistic Fabrication all make great bracketry. It all depends on what you're looking for, and how much you're willing to spend. You could always carefully cut the pieces off a Dana 30 and re-attach those to the housing. Another recommendation though - Stock orientation for coil spring perches place the coils 2" in front of the axle. If you do plan to go with 35" tires or larger, I would highly recommend you make the coil springs sit directly over the axle, rather than in front of. Yes, you can always adjust how far forward the axle sits, but with anything over a 35" tire, room between the tire and the body becomes limited. The extra 2" of room you gain is really worth it. Matt (Starboard M) did this on his build. Link if you haven't seen it:

http://www.naxja.org/forum/showthread.php?t=993467

For reference, a few links you should definitely look through if you haven't already.

Mr. N's Dana 44 knowledge base. Read this, study this, know this. This will answer a lot of your questions.

http://77cj.littlekeylime.com/web_rs44.html

Dana 44 Tech:

http://www.naxja.org/forum/showthread.php?t=52219

Cruzin Illusion's build threads:

http://www.naxja.org/forum/showthread.php?t=902015
http://www.naxja.org/forum/showthread.php?t=907435

Aftermarket Axle Directory:

http://www.naxja.org/forum/showthread.php?p=243542738

Scott
Click to expand...

Thanks for the reply!

Yeah I actually have all those links bookmarked and basically have read them multiple times. I've changed my axle route multiple times from polishing the D30 to running full width's, so lowereing the jeep back down and run 33's, lol. I do plan on narrowing the axle to wagoneer width, I was thinking I may go with aftermarket shafts, after I posted this thread, I was searching on pirate and did noticed that the D30 joints are the same D44's.

One thing though, I thought the off-center issue was from people using the truss? I was actually thinking of going with the T&T truss, but between having centering issues with the truss and then reading people were having bump steer issues because of the short track bar, is kinda frowning me away from it.

I know I will probably go with T&T buckets and lower control mounts, and probably clayton UCA mounts. One dumb question, can I weld the driver side UCA to the housing? Or do I need to run some kind of mount like RE sells with their bracket kit?
 
TheSandman said:
Thanks for the reply!

Yeah I actually have all those links bookmarked and basically have read them multiple times. I've changed my axle route multiple times from polishing the D30 to running full width's, so lowereing the jeep back down and run 33's, lol. I do plan on narrowing the axle to wagoneer width, I was thinking I may go with aftermarket shafts, after I posted this thread, I was searching on pirate and did noticed that the D30 joints are the same D44's.

One thing though, I thought the off-center issue was from people using the truss? I was actually thinking of going with the T&T truss, but between having centering issues with the truss and then reading people were having bump steer issues because of the short track bar, is kinda frowning me away from it.

I know I will probably go with T&T buckets and lower control mounts, and probably clayton UCA mounts. One dumb question, can I weld the driver side UCA to the housing? Or do I need to run some kind of mount like RE sells with their bracket kit?
Click to expand...

The issue of the axle being off center comes with narrowing. Specifically to Wagoneer specifications. In this particular case, off center means the axle is going to stick out further on the passenger side of the vehicle, than the driver. Now, you can adjust your track bar to accommodate for this, but this will result with your coil springs being slanted, and your UCA/LCA mounts to be different than stock. But, it all depends on how you set everything up from the beginning.

When you narrow to Wagoneer width, you end up cutting 3.10625" off the short side, and 1.78625" off the long side. Because you cut SO much off the short side, it limits how much tube you have to work with in between the Inner C, and the center section. Because of the limited amount of tubing you have to work with, it prohibits you from placing the coil perch and driver side LCA in their ideal locations. This is the why the axle would be off center. The center section of the 44 housing is larger than that of the Dana 30. But the main reason people narrow to Wagoneer specs, is because of how close it is to stock width as well as availability of off the shelf parts.

But, when you narrow according to the length of Rubicon shafts, it eliminates that problem altogether. The only downside is you will end up 1.25" wider than stock in the end. Stock for an XJ is 60.75" WMS to WMS, and when following Rubicon specifications, you end up with 62" WMS to WMS. In the situation of the Rubicon shafts, you cut an equal 2.02625" off each side. This gives you a little over an inch of extra tubing on the short side which is enough to eliminate the possibility of having an off center axle. I spoke with a gentlemen from Superior Axle & Gear directly, and we discussed any differences between their aftermarket Wagoneer/Rubicon shafts. In comparison, they're the exact same shaft except for being different lengths.

Technically speaking, there is no 100% right or wrong way to accomplish all this. It all boils down to how you're going to build it. My bracketry is welded on according to stock measurements, so I had to make sure I left myself the opportunity to allow everything to fit.
 
98 jeepjeep said:
so the D44 front to get is? from a 80's waggy?
Click to expand...

Early '70's to '77 Ford axles (78 or 79 if you plan on reusing the Ford radius arm set up, because these axles can't be narrowed without retubing them) They are Driver side HP axles.

Waggy axles are low pinion.
 
IMG_0154.jpg


I used a 77 F150 HP44. Narrowed using Rubicon 44 inner shafts to eliminate the centering problem. I used all Ford Knuckles, spindles, bearings and hubs. OTK 1 ton steering. ARB locker. TNT truss and brackets. I didn't have any issues getting the truss to fit.
 
why is it every one narrows them to rubi or waggy withs? any one ever narrow one to a mj 44 with?
 
BenDiesel said:
why is it every one narrows them to rubi or waggy withs? any one ever narrow one to a mj 44 with?
Click to expand...

You find me a MJ front 44 width, and Ill narrow an axle to it.

People use the waggy or Rubi widths for the "off the shelf" availibility of the shafts. Its nice to be able to order a shaft and have it on your doorstep in a couple days, vs a week or more for the custom made stuff. Its also nice to use junk yard axle shafts as spares and not have to buy an extra set of custom shafts.


People do the Chevy small bearing stuff for the ability to mix Chevy knuckles (for highsteer) with Ford stuff (for the 5x5.5 bolt pattern). If you dont want to do high steer, there is no advantage for you.

Not sure if this will help you at all, but this is how I did mine.
http://naxja.org/forum/showthread.php?t=993467
 
Seiler said:
The issue of the axle being off center comes with narrowing. Specifically to Wagoneer specifications. In this particular case, off center means the axle is going to stick out further on the passenger side of the vehicle, than the driver. Now, you can adjust your track bar to accommodate for this, but this will result with your coil springs being slanted, and your UCA/LCA mounts to be different than stock. But, it all depends on how you set everything up from the beginning.

When you narrow to Wagoneer width, you end up cutting 3.10625" off the short side, and 1.78625" off the long side. Because you cut SO much off the short side, it limits how much tube you have to work with in between the Inner C, and the center section. Because of the limited amount of tubing you have to work with, it prohibits you from placing the coil perch and driver side LCA in their ideal locations. This is the why the axle would be off center. The center section of the 44 housing is larger than that of the Dana 30. But the main reason people narrow to Wagoneer specs, is because of how close it is to stock width as well as availability of off the shelf parts.

But, when you narrow according to the length of Rubicon shafts, it eliminates that problem altogether. The only downside is you will end up 1.25" wider than stock in the end. Stock for an XJ is 60.75" WMS to WMS, and when following Rubicon specifications, you end up with 62" WMS to WMS. In the situation of the Rubicon shafts, you cut an equal 2.02625" off each side. This gives you a little over an inch of extra tubing on the short side which is enough to eliminate the possibility of having an off center axle. I spoke with a gentlemen from Superior Axle & Gear directly, and we discussed any differences between their aftermarket Wagoneer/Rubicon shafts. In comparison, they're the exact same shaft except for being different lengths.

Technically speaking, there is no 100% right or wrong way to accomplish all this. It all boils down to how you're going to build it. My bracketry is welded on according to stock measurements, so I had to make sure I left myself the opportunity to allow everything to fit.
Click to expand...

Hmmm, but if I narrow it to Rubicon specs, it will be 1.25" wider then stock? Would this work using my XJ D44? Is there any problem with the waggy width D44's being off center a little?



fireLt. said:
IMG_0154.jpg


I used a 77 F150 HP44. Narrowed using Rubicon 44 inner shafts to eliminate the centering problem. I used all Ford Knuckles, spindles, bearings and hubs. OTK 1 ton steering. ARB locker. TNT truss and brackets. I didn't have any issues getting the truss to fit.
Click to expand...

Are you running a stock XJ style rear end?
 
Starboard M said:
You find me a MJ front 44 width, and Ill narrow an axle to it.

People use the waggy or Rubi widths for the "off the shelf" availibility of the shafts. Its nice to be able to order a shaft and have it on your doorstep in a couple days, vs a week or more for the custom made stuff. Its also nice to use junk yard axle shafts as spares and not have to buy an extra set of custom shafts.


People do the Chevy small bearing stuff for the ability to mix Chevy knuckles (for highsteer) with Ford stuff (for the 5x5.5 bolt pattern). If you dont want to do high steer, there is no advantage for you.

Not sure if this will help you at all, but this is how I did mine.
http://naxja.org/forum/showthread.php?t=993467
Click to expand...


Just re-read your thread again (besides reading it multiple times the past month) and I'm thinking of going the same route. Have you had any issues with the axle being off at all? What was your mock up method? I'm trying to figure out a good method to mock up everything to make sure the mounts and spring buckets are in the right place. Did you use measurements off the old D30 or did you mount it under the jeep?

Thanks for the help so far
 
TheSandman said:
Just re-read your thread again (besides reading it multiple times the past month) and I'm thinking of going the same route. Have you had any issues with the axle being off at all? What was your mock up method? I'm trying to figure out a good method to mock up everything to make sure the mounts and spring buckets are in the right place. Did you use measurements off the old D30 or did you mount it under the jeep?

Thanks for the help so far
Click to expand...
I'm not Starboard, but I'll add my input to these questions.
My HPD60 is center section is offset more to the pass side than a stock axle. I don't have any issues other than the pinion yoke gets very close to the stock exhaust on full bump. Granted it is a D60, but it is something to check with a D44. I know a few people that run waggy width D44s up front with no clearance problems.

As for a "mock up method", what do you mean? Put the axle underneath, point the pinion at the t-case, set the C's at a driveable angle (assuming you're narrowing it), and you are all set.

Using the measurements off your old D30 is up to you. There is no rulebook stating you have to use those measurements. I for one would bring the LCA mounts further up on the center line of the tube (rather than hanging down) and would push out the coil buckets out slightly for better spring compression when the axle is flexed.

As for your rear axle issue, grab some aftermarket shafts for that D44. Most (the good ones anyway) will have a dual drilled pattern allowing you to run the 5on5.5" pattern. You'll still need new wheels though.
 
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