Power outlet socket/cps issue conected?

Hi, I haven't been on here for a while but have a question.
Last year I developed an increasingly consistant temperature related cut out issue. I replaced the cps and my cars been good for 12 months/20,000 miles ran without missing a beat. The past few weeks the issue is back. The thing is,back last year I did put my phone on charge in my car which is something I never do. Then within a day or two I had the cps issue. Go forward 12 months and the same thing has happened, put my phone on charge, and it appears the cps has been upset. Couple weeks ago When this issue appeared I unplugged the cps and plugged it straight back in and it's been good so far? Is it possible that the power socket could be effecting the cps somehow?
It's a 97 4ltr auto
hope your all well
thanks

Very strange. The power outlet has it's own direct lead. Battery, fuse, outlet.

Brainstorming................could the "radio waves" or whatever they are called, going through the air affect the CKP/CPS. I know that if I have my cell (handy IIRC in Europe) near my monitor, it disturbs the monitor screen just before a call comes in.

Electronic gurus, where are you?

Thought you must have sold your Jeep.

I was thinking if it was possible I know it seems outrageous!!! But hey!!
I was thinking maybe the ecu getting upset somehow and taking it out on my cps or similar but not sure if that's possible. Just to be clear though, twice I've used my charger, (different ones by the way) and twice I've seen this. I strongly suspect completley unrelated, but thought I'd put it out there.

Hey winterbeater you ok? You in work now?
I hope your well. No haven't sold my car, still driving it and still loving it and still smooth as silk! That of course was not meant to be the kiss of death!!!

EM field is the offishal :wierd: term used to discribe dynamic and static electro magnetic fields...
Not sure what the failure mode is for this components. Anyone have any useful data?

dunbad said:

The thing is,back last year I did put my phone on charge in my car which is something I never do. Then within a day or two I had the cps issue. Go forward 12 months and the same thing has happened, put my phone on charge, and it appears the cps has been upset. Couple weeks ago When this issue appeared I unplugged the cps and plugged it straight back in and it's been good so far? Is it possible that the power socket could be effecting the cps somehow?

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The short answer: it *shouldn't* be - at least, not the radio (i.e., phone) part of the equation. The chances of the phone being the problem are slim to the point that I wouldn't suspect it just yet.

The longer answer: there's a more likely a possibility that something in the electrical path between the phone charger and the CPS is causing the issue. Chargers aren't typically made to the most exacting standards, so it's possible that it's causing an issue further down the line that doesn't have any obvious or otherwise effects on the phone. More on that past the upcoming reply, but when you had this issue the first time, did it happen with exactly the same phone and charger?

winterbeater said:

Very strange. The power outlet has it's own direct lead. Battery, fuse, outlet.

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This is pretty much my recollection of that circuit as well; it's always-on and directly-wired (i.e., no switches or relays) to the battery. Been a few years since I had to look at it closely, though.

There are two commonalities between the charger and the CPS that come immediately to mind here: the battery and the grounds. Make sure the battery is in good shape with decent terminals and that the main grounds (battery negative to inner fender; engine block to firewall) are also in good shape.

The next thing I'd try would be a different charger on the same phone, and (if unsuccessful) a completely different model of both phone and charger on the power outlet. Granted, this could cause the issue again, but it at least sounds as though you have a workaround for it if I've read things correctly.

From there, it's a little more involved. You'll have to check the wiring from both the power outlet and CPS for breaks / worn insulation. Make sure that if you find any they're not contacting the body.

Brainstorming................could the "radio waves" or whatever they are called, going through the air affect the CKP/CPS.

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Well... While I wouldn't completely discount the possibility that the problem is being caused by the RF emissions coming from the phone, my gut feeling is that it's a fairly slim chance that that's the cause. While any wire (read: the leads to/from the CPS) can act as both a transmitting and receiving antenna, given the combination of low RF power output from the phone, the bands that it's likely operating within, and the general design of the electrical system in that regard, I would call it unlikely.

I know that if I have my cell (handy IIRC in Europe) near my monitor, it disturbs the monitor screen just before a call comes in.

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They're only 'handies' in certain parts of Europe - in the English-speaking bits, we generally just refer to them as 'mobiles'

But yeah - while this is a good point, monitors are typically some of the most-susceptible devices to RF interference. Speakers are another one; you've probably heard the clicking / buzzing through them as well when a call is about to come in. The CPS is a totally different beast in terms of design compared to either of those, though, so it wouldn't really be expected to behave the same way.

Yeah I don't think it's the phone part causing the issue or faulty charger as I had a different phone and charger last time round. Also with regard to signal interference, my phone is always with me in the car, often 2 or 3 phones with no apparent issue. The only reason I charged my phone from the car this time was because I wasn't at home the night before so couldn't charge it where I always do. But I did think, by plugging this in will it effect the cps. Low and behold within a day or two, the engine is struggling once warmed up. I'll check for grounds and have a look round but just wanted to make sure I wouldn't be wasting my time in checking something that's not physically possible. (it will take me some considerable time checking for faulty connections/grounds)
many thanks.

dunbad said:

Yeah I don't think it's the phone part causing the issue or faulty charger as I had a different phone and charger last time round.

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OK, so that pretty much eliminates that part of the equation.

But I did think, by plugging this in will it effect the cps. Low and behold within a day or two, the engine is struggling once warmed up. I'll check for grounds and have a look round but just wanted to make sure I wouldn't be wasting my time in checking something that's not physically possible. (it will take me some considerable time checking for faulty connections/grounds)

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If you run anything else (preferably non-phone-related) from the power outlet, does the same problem occur? Just trying to narrow down whether the the problem is related to something going on in the CPS or power outlet circuits.

As the CKP/CPS is a generator sending a power signal to the PCM/ECU, I wouldn't think a power outlet would effect it.

However, I have been fooled many times in the past.

If you really "really, really have to know", run a new ground to the power socket and a new clean fused power lead directly off the battery too. Then plug in the phone and see if the problem repeats. If it doesn't, then there is something in the harness that is causing the problem, not the phone or its charger.

I will check, at this moment in time I was planning on leaving it a little while longer just to make sure the problem is fixed. It's only been about a week of no issues since I unplugged the cps at the manifold end (which as I understand resets the ecu?) because it was an inconsistant issue. It's only been the past couple of days I've started to drive without worrying about it cutting out the whole time.
The other thing is I haven't got anything else to plug in at this moment in time, so maybe I can treat myself to a nice tom tom!!
Can I just confirm disconnecting that cps resets the ecu, or does it just check the connections good?
Thanks

It just makes the connection good.

To reset the PCM/ECU remove both cables from the battery's terminals and hold them together for about 30 seconds. Don't try and cheat by disconnecting one cable and holding it to the other still connected to the battery.

Cheers,
well that makes things a little bit different. Before I disconnected it, the connection "looked" good! Also I've read other posts of disconnecting/reconnecting the cps with good results. I'm not too eager to potentially fry my cps to see IF it IS the cause. I was thinking resetting that ecu Somehow "cured" the issue. Clearly I haven't reset that ecu so now can I assume it's really a coincidence. Also I'm of the opinion that my cps could be on borrowed time!!
I'll check those connections and grounds but the cost of those cps in the uk I think I'll just forget about using my power socket!!!

You should only disconnect/reconnect the CKP/CPS with the engine off as in "it cranks but won't start" situations, in an attempt to "freshen" the connection.

Cheers joe and casm,
I've just had a very quick visual(in the dark) at the areas you mentioned and it appears I see an area of interest. When I had my auto gas system fitted, the mechanic has spliced a power feed in. I'll take some photos tomorrow in the light and show you, but I suspect this is causing the issue. To have 2 cps knocked out has gotta be a massive coincidence considering how much I use my car and how rarely I use that socket!!!

Just curious, where was the last crank sensor purchased?

I've been working on 4.0s for quite a while, and I have had really bad luck with aftermarket sensors (especially crank and oil pressure). I buy my crank sensors directly from Jeep. There are a lot of threads that echo this sentiment.

I think the phone/connection may be very well coincidental. I'd focus on the crank sensor circuit.

Try disconnecting the connector (inspect the contacts) on the crank sensor and also the connector for this sensor in the engine bay near the firewall #6 injector. Spray the connectors with electrical contact cleaner. Apply dielectric grease liberally. Reconnect. See how it goes.

A bit of debris in either connector can create an intermittent resistance path which can create problems with the crank sensor making it to the computer.

If this doesn't help, I'd replace the crank sensor with one from JEEP.

Ok an update to this.
The wiring was tested and checked with no issues so forget the power socket/phone. Since unplugging the cps I drove the best part if 2500 miles without fault. Couple of days ago the issue came back during the 60 mile journey to work, (just had a few hiccups). I knew from previous experience The return journey home would be different. After about 20 miles the hiccups started and got much much worse to the extent that the jeep died on me and wouldn't restart till I waited for her to cool down. Again I knew that once she had cooled off she would be fine till she reached temprature. Anyway I noticed that the heater hose was tight up against the cps (again) so moved it away. Called the recovery guy who came out and had a look and he noticed that my heater hose had practically melted itself from rubbing or being tight against the cps. Anyway he checked things over and said it could be possible that the cps packs up from the scorching hot heater hose? He tied the hose back and I got home without anymore hiccups and it's been fine since. I'm not sure if this is possible, but it would explain why my car has been fine not because I unplugged the cps at the manifold end but the fact I moved it away from the hose. The worst winter here in 30 years with the deepest snow has left the roads full of potholes. All that bouncing around knocked that hose back to make contact with the cps? Sound possible?

What you are experiencing definitely sounds like thermal (heat related) failure.

There shouldn't be a heater hose near the crank sensor itself as that sensor is located on the transmission bellhousing.

So to confirm, do you mean that there is a heater hose in contact with the crank sensor connector inside the engine bay?

Normally it is the sensor itself that is most susceptible to thermal failure but if you see a repeatable "cause and effect" relationship to a heater hose and that crank sensor connector, then obviously keep them separated.

Did you inspect/clean/apply dielectric grease to both of the crank sensor connectors? Dielectric grease is your friend for sensor connections.

On my 98 4.0L the heater hoses do not go any where near the Crank Position Sensor unless he has A LOT of extra heater hose or are you referring to the Cam Position Sensor that is inside the distributor.
The Crank Position Sensor connector is attached to a bracket on top of the intake manifold and the harness runs over the bellhousing from the drivers to passenger side where the CPS bolts.
The Cam Position Sensor connector exits the distributor and connects into the harness nearby.

Possibly the British version of the XJ is slightly different than the US version. Will have to look at Vincents British XJ the next time I go to Moab.

Yeah I mean the crank position connector that is attached to that small bracket on the manifold. My lower heater hose was in contact with the connector. And it was this that I simply unplugged a few weeks ago and then reconnected(but I also pushed it up and back abit away from the connector without thinking too much about it) The cps that I replaced were both genuine jeep items. My heater hose is actually shorter than standard courtesy of a garage that fitted my gas system. Whilst tapping into the cooling system, they deemed it appropriate to elevate my lower heater hose to stop coolant spilling out with a RAZOR blade stood in it's point on my valve cover. They then forgot to take it out!!!!! I picked up the car and drove it home. I then noticed the shoddy workmanship, but it was to late. There was a tiny hole in my lower heater hose. I then done the wrong thing and went back to them to replace it. They just snipped the bad bit out and pulled the hose up to the t-piece. The result is my heater hose is probably not positioned as it should be even on a rhd. It was definatley heat related no arguments. Both incidents started intermittently but just got worse to the point I couldn't drive it once up to operating temp. I now need to do the right thing and replace hose and grease that connector. I am confident this contact is the cause either through vibration (unlikley as it only done it when scorching hot) or heat somehow telling the connector you fercoffee!!

If the heater hose is in fact near the CKP, it seems that it could be re-routed. It seems that the hose would be WAY too long the way it is.

Never mind!

From your description of the problem with your CPS it is most certainly heat related.