HP44 - Have I narrowed enough?

Hey guys,

I'm encountering a dilemma with my current HP44 build, and really could use some feedback.

Background - HP Ford Dana 44 from 1970's F100, radius arm's with weld on wedges. I've got it down to the bare housing (minus the carrier, and gears.) I wanted to narrow mine to Waggy width, thus having the ability to utilize post 80's Waggy shafts. Bracketry will be a TNT Truss, with TNT Coil buckets.

Now, I know Cruzin Illusion decided to cut his equally on both sides, utilizing custom length shafts. Starboard M modified his TNT Truss, as well as Coil buckets slightly in attempt to cancel out the .66 off center. Frankly, I'm not aware of another build (that's documented) following the build plan I hope to follow. I would like to use TNT's products, without modifying anything in hopes that running .66 off center will not be an issue.

Progress: Wedges are gone, Tubes have been narrowed (1.78625 on the short side, 3.10625 on the long side), Inner C's have been turned, Pinion/Caster angles are set, Coil buckets/LCA Mounts have been tack welded.

At this point, my measurements for having the axle centered under my 1997 XJ are off enough, to cause concern. For me anyway. :wierd:

ISSUE: Driver side distance, from center of coil bucket to inside flat edge of Inner C is 3". Passenger side distance, from center of coil bucket to inside flat edge of Inner C is 4.25". Which, in keeping the axle centered under the vehicle, gives me an overall difference of 1.25". This is where I am confused, and believe it should be a difference of .66", should it not? From what I can gather, all my other measurements are within spec.

You can see the difference in distance with these images:




Disregard the green level, i'm only using it to prop the passenger side shaft up.

The only idea I could come up with, to correct the distance, is to narrow the passenger side more than it currently is. I believe I have the room to do so, however I'm not quite sure.

With the shaft sitting as close to the tube as possible, on the passenger side, this is how much spline engagement I have:




For comparison purposes, this is the amount in which I have on the Driver side:




Yes, the focus on that last shot is awful, but it's clear enough for reference.

Any ideas? Is this something to worry about? This will be going under a Daily Driven rig, and I want to make sure I don't half-ass anything.

Thanks for your time, sorry about the long post.

Scott

I'm missing something. BTW, I narrowed mine to '80 plus Waggy width, but it was too long ago to probably find in a search. I assume you cut the amount off each side that the Waggy shafts are shorter than the full width shafts.

So what's the problem with centering the axle? Put your mounts and the coil buckets where they need to be so it's all centered. What's dictating the position you've chosen for your coil buckets? Is it the truss? You'll have to modify it a little if so, should be no big deal to do a little grinding on the truss or the coil bucket.

Goatman said:

I'm missing something. BTW, I narrowed mine to '80 plus Waggy width, but it was too long ago to probably find in a search. I assume you cut the amount off each side that the Waggy shafts are shorter than the full width shafts.

So what's the problem with centering the axle? Put your mounts and the coil buckets where they need to be so it's all centered. What's dictating the position you've chosen for your coil buckets? Is it the truss? You'll have to modify it a little if so, should be no big deal to do a little grinding on the truss or the coil bucket.

Click to expand...

Yes, I cut the difference in length off the axle tubes on each side to acheieve Waggoneer width.

From what I understand and now am experiencing first hand, the issue with narrowing, and attempting to center the axle is coil bucket placement. To have the axle centered equally on both sides, the driver side coil bucket would end up in the cast section of the axle. If I was to remove the truss, and re-locate the driver side coil bucket, I only have .5" of excess tube available until I hit the center section. Starboard M followed this, and was almost able to fully center his. He was still .25" off.

I've also read about issues with the pinion yoke contacting the driver side Upper Control Arm if it's too close as well, so I'm trying to avoid that.

Ultimately, if I have to re-locate the driver side bucket and modify the Truss, I can do that.

I still sort of don't get it. This is a fabrication project, you can make it whatever way you want it. If you're trying to use stock parts to put in a non-stock axe then the problem is the stock parts your using. This is fabricating, just put the stuff where it needs to go, and do whatever changing of the parts you have to do to make that happen.

Are you asking what exactly you need to change? Or are you asking if you can use those parts without making any changes?

If you didn't have the TnT truss, or those pre-fabbed coil buckets, what would you be doing?

To me, since your starting from scratch with a new axle, it's a perfect time to ditch the stock four link/track bar setup and do a 3 link........which is what a whole bunch of people do on XJ's when swapping in a new front axle. But, if you're trying to make the axle fit to your existing suspension, then you just have to make it fit.

Cutting, grinding, fitting, and welding.

BTW, mine was exactly the same width as yours, but I built a 3 link with the upper link on the pass side, so no interference with the header downpipe and no fitment issues whatsoever.

BTW, are you putting some chromo shafts and good joints in that D44?

Personally, I wouldn't want the coil buckets in the stock location. I'd space them out slightly wider than stock and center them over the axle tube.

Goatman said:

Are you asking what exactly you need to change? Or are you asking if you can use those parts without making any changes?

If you didn't have the TnT truss, or those pre-fabbed coil buckets, what would you be doing?

To me, since your starting from scratch with a new axle, it's a perfect time to ditch the stock four link/track bar setup and do a 3 link........which is what a whole bunch of people do on XJ's when swapping in a new front axle. But, if you're trying to make the axle fit to your existing suspension, then you just have to make it fit.

Cutting, grinding, fitting, and welding.

BTW, mine was exactly the same width as yours, but I built a 3 link with the upper link on the pass side, so no interference with the header downpipe and no fitment issues whatsoever.

Click to expand...

My main concern is whether or not running 1.25" off center towards the Passenger side will be an issue. I didn't think .66" off would be much of an issue, but 1.25" is double that.

If I didn't have the TNT Parts, I'd probably use the RE kit. Or, fall back to my Dana 30. Personally, I'd like to make this 44 fit with my current LA setup. I just got done installing a brand new Clayton kit, and would like to run like this for a while.

I don't think I'm anywhere ready for a 3-link project, especially with the need to get my rig back on the road. I won't have the option or funding to stretch this longer than I already have.

The Cutting/Grinding/Fitting part I'm ok with. I've had my fair share of time behind the shooting sparks. Unfortunately, I don't have any welding buddies, and every time I need someone to burn for me, it's $$$ as well as explaining to them exactly what I'm trying to accomplish.

Goatman said:

BTW, are you putting some chromo shafts and good joints in that D44?

Click to expand...

Yes. My chromo shafts are on their way (well, 3/4 are - 1 shaft is backordered). The stock Waggoneer shafts I picked up were merely for mock up purposes, as well as trail spares.

Jes said:

Personally, I wouldn't want the coil buckets in the stock location. I'd space them out slightly wider than stock and center them over the axle tube.

Click to expand...

As of right now, the center of each bucket is 36.5" apart from the other, which makes it .20 wider than stock. How far are you talking? What's your motivation for doing so?

Thanks for your input guys. I really appreciate it.

Scott

I still don't get why you're saying the axle will be off center.

Just center it. You actually center the axle with the track bar adjustment. I understand about the coil perch hitting the truss on one side........just fix it. And if your real question is if you can run it off center, sure, but it's mickey mouse so why would you want to do it on a brand new install?

Your answer is as simple as we've already discussed. It's a fab project, so fab.

I also narrowed (had Currie do it) my '79 Ford housing to "Waggy" specs. I didn't have any problems with the spring pad being too close to the center section.
In fact, I wish I'd moved the pad spacing out another inch--would help the driver-side spring clear the track-bar mount.
My driver-side inner axle length ('80-84 Wagoneer) is 15.8 inches, and the passenger side inner is 32.12 inches; the axle housing was cut for these axle lengths.
My spring pads are at 36.250 centers; they should have been 37.00, the stock width of the XJ Dana 30. They're OK there, but do yourself a favor and put them at least on 37 inch centers.

Im utterly confused on your delima. Seems like you should just move the passenger mount out to match the driver side. But the concern i have is that I always thought that the shaft moves in and out slightly when the wheel is turned and your spinning the shafts. This is from the ujoint's movement. I could be worng so someone else chime in but that clearance you have looks pretty tight between that shaft and inside of the knuckle.

Seiler said:

As of right now, the center of each bucket is 36.5" apart from the other, which makes it .20 wider than stock. How far are you talking? What's your motivation for doing so?

Click to expand...

I can't remeber what mine ended up at but I spacerd them out .5"-1" each side. I did that so that the driver's side coil doesn't rub on the panhard bar mount and also so the bumpstops better align while flexing. The reason to center the springs over the axle tube is to avoid the steering hitting the coils springs or any of the brackets.

Goatman said:

I still don't get why you're saying the axle will be off center.

Just center it. You actually center the axle with the track bar adjustment. I understand about the coil perch hitting the truss on one side........just fix it. And if your real question is if you can run it off center, sure, but it's mickey mouse so why would you want to do it on a brand new install?

Your answer is as simple as we've already discussed. It's a fab project, so fab.

Click to expand...

I wanted to avoid running this setup off center to begin with. Not only would I notice the difference in placement, but I did not know how the axle would handle in certain situations. Being off by 1.25" and then using the Track Bar to cancel out that length would cause me to have slightly bent springs. I didn't want that either.

With all these replies regarding bucket replacement, I'm confident I can correct the difference and get everything accurate.

Thanks for your help Rich. :kissyou:

xjbubba said:

I also narrowed (had Currie do it) my '79 Ford housing to "Waggy" specs. I didn't have any problems with the spring pad being too close to the center section.
In fact, I wish I'd moved the pad spacing out another inch--would help the driver-side spring clear the track-bar mount.
My driver-side inner axle length ('80-84 Wagoneer) is 15.8 inches, and the passenger side inner is 32.12 inches; the axle housing was cut for these axle lengths.
My spring pads are at 36.250 centers; they should have been 37.00, the stock width of the XJ Dana 30. They're OK there, but do yourself a favor and put them at least on 37 inch centers.

Click to expand...

I believe the issue i'm encountering is caused by the TNT Truss. Without it, I'd have an extra .5" to fool around with. And with your comment about spacing the buckets apart more than normal, It wouldn't even be a problem. I also narrowed my tubes to accept the 32.12" & 15.8" shafts. I've got more than an inch until my passenger side shaft bottoms out on the cross pin, so I might grind an extra .25" off that tube.

Thanks for your comment. Do you have any pictures of your setup? I love axle p0rn.

98xjjeeper said:

Im utterly confused on your delima. Seems like you should just move the passenger mount out to match the driver side. But the concern i have is that I always thought that the shaft moves in and out slightly when the wheel is turned and your spinning the shafts. This is from the ujoint's movement. I could be worng so someone else chime in but that clearance you have looks pretty tight between that shaft and inside of the knuckle.

Click to expand...

I'm not sure of the tolerances of the shafts + u-joint within the knuckles. I'd also be interested to know.

Jes said:

I can't remeber what mine ended up at but I spacerd them out .5"-1" each side. I did that so that the driver's side coil doesn't rub on the panhard bar mount and also so the bumpstops better align while flexing. The reason to center the springs over the axle tube is to avoid the steering hitting the coils springs or any of the brackets.

Click to expand...

Jes summed my problem up pretty well with this comment. Just the answer I was looking for. I appreciate it.

Scott

98xjjeeper said:

Im utterly confused on your delima. Seems like you should just move the passenger mount out to match the driver side. But the concern i have is that I always thought that the shaft moves in and out slightly when the wheel is turned and your spinning the shafts. This is from the ujoint's movement. I could be worng so someone else chime in but that clearance you have looks pretty tight between that shaft and inside of the knuckle.

Click to expand...

I always figured that in a well designed axle (that won't flex the inner shaft when you're turning) the inner+stub shafts were designed such that the axes of rotation of the U-joint and the knuckle are on the same plane, resulting in the shaft not moving at all along its axis while turning. I'll have to put my d30 I'm rebuilding back together sometime and see though.

I can't contribute anything as far as solutions (I couldn't fab my way out of a cardboard box), but as far as saying that you're 1.25" off... you're actually only 0.66" off (which would be half of 1.32").

Moving the truss 0.66" away from center (towards driver's side) would mean that your distance from coil bucket to C on the driver's side is -0.66, and +0.66 on the passenger's side. Hence the ~1.32" difference between the side measurements, but the difference between those measurements relative to true center of the axle is still 0.66".

Hope you get it figured out (sounds like you're on your way).

GoSlowGetStuck said:

I can't contribute anything as far as solutions (I couldn't fab my way out of a cardboard box), but as far as saying that you're 1.25" off... you're actually only 0.66" off (which would be half of 1.32").

Moving the truss 0.66" away from center (towards driver's side) would mean that your distance from coil bucket to C on the driver's side is -0.66, and +0.66 on the passenger's side. Hence the ~1.32" difference between the side measurements, but the difference between those measurements relative to true center of the axle is still 0.66".

Hope you get it figured out (sounds like you're on your way).

Click to expand...

Right, I follow what you're saying. I believe I have found a solution though.

I can still cut an additional .25" off of the passenger side tube. There's .25" more spline engagement available on that gear. This will leave the axle 1" towards the passenger side, rather than 1.25".

With the recommendation of widening the coil buckets, I will increase their distance from one another to 37.5", from 36.5". This is where I will gain my inch back. The driver bucket will stay where it is, the passenger bucket will be moved 1" outboard.

From there, I'll have to re-orientate the CA mounts. I have just enough room for the driver LCA mount to be 15" from the center of the axle, without interfering with the center section. The corresponding passenger LCA mount will also be 15" away from center.

Last, I have to move the truss over .5" (Mainly because it has my UCA mounts attached). After which, my UCA mounts will be centered, as will my LCA mounts. My coil buckets will be an equal amount away from each Inner C, and their stance widened 1" from stock. All of which, works.

:cheers:

Scott