Aussie in D30, snow/ice first time review...

Well by tomorrow morning we should have up to 30cm/1ft. of snow. I went out tonight to see what my XJ would be like fully locked No-Slip rr, Aussie fr. in the ice and snow.
What a blast! I see how you could lose control at high speeds or not paying attention, but really it's a lot of fun. Not hard to control at all. On icy streets with curves i was able to maintain speed (did not take foot off throttle) and just drive through the curve without it even trying to go straight. I was surprised by this, so i thought i'd do it again, but this time remove my foot before the curve and coast through. This provided less control, sloppy steering because you are being controlled by the snow tracks/ice ruts etc. I didn't like this method of handling BUT if it's crazy out and theres cars around, this is the route to take as a courteous and safe method for slow going and it's easier to come to a stop.(remember when stopping on ice neutral is your friend. You can cut your stopping distances in half by slipping the shifter into Neutral, this will give you more control.)
Then i tried the curve at 50kph and gave 'er in the turn, now she wanted to go straight, even with light acceleration (tried both methods). I have the AW4, if you use your brakes, neutral and the gas (2 foot it) you'll have a hoot!
Summary: It's controllable, fun, and i do not regret putting it in at all!
NOTE: With great power comes great responsibility.
Much more fun than an open diff. If you have to DD highway, stick to open front with locked rear.
Don't get cocky on public streets where people may get hurt. Practice in parking lots or fields. I've you are nice to the locker, it'll be nice to you.
If you consider yourself a 'driver' (if you have to ask, you are not one.) then by all means enjoy. This is not for the meek or timid in the white or icy stuff. Do NOT let anyone drive your XJ without you in it.
I am going to do some highway practice and pull some maneouvers and let you what happens at highway speeds.
HTH

just curious........what good is using the brake, neutral and the gas??? the gas won't do anything if you're in neutral. or do you mean using them at different times depending on the circumstances???

Thanks for sharing your experience. I've been trying to decide if I should lock the front or not. I use me jeep to go on ski trips so I want to keep it good in the snow.

boomhauer said:

(remember when stopping on ice neutral is your friend. You can cut your stopping distances in half by slipping the shifter into Neutral, this will give you more control.)

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I call BS, biggest crock of crap I've heard.

My locked front was fun when I wanted it to be (around corners and stuff) but in 4wd on a slushy road it will pull everywhere. Many times I was in 2wd just because it was easier to drive.

I would not have given it up for the world though

scorpio_vette said:

just curious........what good is using the brake, neutral and the gas??? the gas won't do anything if you're in neutral. or do you mean using them at different times depending on the circumstances???

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Sorry, you are correct, depending on the circumstances.

1996cc said:

I call BS, biggest crock of crap I've heard.

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Ah...ok. explain how it is easier to stop on ice with your drivetrain engaged? you wanna call BS, ok, i'm ALL IN!:canada:

1996cc said:

I call BS, biggest crock of crap I've heard.

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Don't get out much, do you? :wierd:

Decompression of the motor slows your vehicle down (simple mechanical principle). If you are braking more than that, then the drivetrain is no longer in the equation, the brakes are doing all of the work. If the decompression braking is causing a slide (not likely, esp. with an auto), then any amount of braking would cause more of a slide. Additionally, if the drivetrain is in neutral, every wheel is essentially independant and can independently lock up. If everything is tied to together (in drive), it keeps things moving which is better for braking than being locked up.

Since you apparently know more then me, enlighten me as to why you think the opposite.

Also, all this assumes we are discussing a NON - ABS system.

1996cc said:

Decompression of the motor slows your vehicle down (simple mechanical principle). If you are braking more than that, then the drivetrain is no longer in the equation, the brakes are doing all of the work. If the decompression braking is causing a slide (not likely, esp. with an auto), then any amount of braking would cause more of a slide. Additionally, if the drivetrain is in neutral, every wheel is essentially independant and can independently lock up. If everything is tied to together (in drive), it keeps things moving which is better for braking than being locked up.

Since you apparently know more then me, enlighten me as to why you think the opposite.

Also, all this assumes we are discussing a NON - ABS system.

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NON-ABS... ok lets go.
When you leave the tranny in drive and hit the brakes there is still force turing the drive shaft, which makes the brakes have to work harder to stop the tires from turning.
To understand this, go for a drive, come to a complete stop, let your foot off the gas and what happens... the engine drives the shaft, turning the tires... you move forward.
Now when you shift into neutral while applying the brakes you will stop sooner. Reason being your drive shaft is not trying to turn the tires and the brakes have less work to do, keeping them from locking up.
If you have the chance, get out on a slippery parking lot, preferably with a light snow on it untouched (so you can compare runs)
Drive straight forward up to a good speed (25mph) and just hit the brakes. Brakes engage, but a small amount of torque is still turning the drive shaft, applying tourque to one wheel more than the other causing your ass end to grip on one side better than the other, and you start to slid sideways.
Go back to the start, do the same run, but this time when you brake shift to neutral, no torque affecting braking, brakes work better but have less work to do, need less force applied. End result you stay straight(er) and stop in less distance.
If you don't have the opportunity to do this you can take my word, we had to do it years ago in driving lessons, when I took mine. They do that exact same drill (but we were in Geo Trackers sadly) I have since done it myself in my Jeep. This was after they showed us movies showing what I just described. It was actually kinda funny to see people go sliding through stop signs (test parking lots setup as roads) then try shifting to neutral and see how better they stopped.

Now this is all for straight line stopping. If your trying to steer out of a skid or around a corner than yeah I would keep it in gear.

As for ABS. Far as I know its the exact same thing. While slidding towards stopped traffic and ex girlfriend starting to panic when she realized she wouldn't stop in time... I simply pushed her auto into neutral and she stopped with plenty of distance to spare.

I haven't done it first hand as you, but I can't imagine that making a huge difference, especially on ice where the brakes can easily outpower the available traction, let alone the minor drivetrain "push".

If this was such a big benefit wouldn't we see the OEM's incorporating a "temporary" neutral that would engage when the ABS system engages (a good "trigger") (on new vehicles of course).

1996cc said:

I haven't done it first hand as you, but I can't imagine that making a huge difference, especially on ice where the brakes can easily outpower the available traction, let alone the minor drivetrain "push".

If this was such a big benefit wouldn't we see the OEM's incorporating a "temporary" neutral that would engage when the ABS system engages (a good "trigger") (on new vehicles of course).

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On ice it's not 'minor'. Think of the torque applied to your drivetrain when you put it in gear...now when you take it out of gear, feel how much the Jeep 'relaxes'. How many people have told you now and you still wanna argue and you haven't even driven in these conditions?! :twak:

boomhauer said:

How many people have told you now and you still wanna argue and you haven't even driven in these conditions?! :twak:

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That would be two people. Can't we have a discussion without it being "arguing"?

And I have driven in just about any ice/snow condition available in the northwest in many types of vehicles. From front wheel drives with ABS to 2 wheel drive pickups without ABS, manual trannies to autos, part time 4x4's, full time 4x4's. I just said I've never braked in neutral, but having said that, I was incorrect. In the manual tranny vehicles I've driven (and currently own), I guess I ALWAYS brake in neutral, because the clutch is depressed, didn't think about that before. And I've never noticed a difference, other than killing the motor if I don't depress the clutch.

1996cc said:

I haven't done it first hand as you, but I can't imagine that making a huge difference, especially on ice where the brakes can easily outpower the available traction, let alone the minor drivetrain "push".

If this was such a big benefit wouldn't we see the OEM's incorporating a "temporary" neutral that would engage when the ABS system engages (a good "trigger") (on new vehicles of course).

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have you ever noticed that almost all vehicles (except some old Fords, Jaguars and a few exotics I think) can be slipped from D straight to N without having to press the tranny button, there is a reason for that.



I don't think anyone here is saying 'no' outright. Its not something anyone would have tried unless it had been brought up to them. I would think now everyone that reads this will go out and try it as soon as they can.
So for those that have and know, we can pipe up as we feel the need. Others may check back in a few weeks/months from now when they get some snow or ice and have had a chance to try it.

Either way it has worked for me, I'll continue to do it.

I tried it on the way home on bare pavement. Under braking, if you keep a steady pressure on the pedal (i.e. don't move your foot), and slip the tranny into neutral - based on what you two are saying, I should feel the vehicle start to slow down faster i.e. the braking force should increase with the same amount of pressure on the pedal. I did not notice any difference what so ever. And putting it back in drive before I came to a stop didn't change anything either - it didn't lurch forward. So if you two (and others reading) want to row your shifter everytime you stop, go right ahead, but I won't be wasting the effort.

1996cc said:

I tried it on the way home on bare pavement. Under braking, if you keep a steady pressure on the pedal (i.e. don't move your foot), and slip the tranny into neutral - based on what you two are saying, I should feel the vehicle start to slow down faster i.e. the braking force should increase with the same amount of pressure on the pedal. I did not notice any difference what so ever. And putting it back in drive before I came to a stop didn't change anything either - it didn't lurch forward. So if you two (and others reading) want to row your shifter everytime you stop, go right ahead, but I won't be wasting the effort.

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did you read any of what is written above?

icy, snowy, slippery roads. the type of roads that can be found in late fall, winter or early spring conditions.
those of us that know this works will continue to 'row' our shifters, and when we are caught in a situation that needs us to stop on those kinds of roads (as described above) we will do what we know works and save ourselves and others the cost of body repair.

Feel free not to waste your time, we didn't write this to convince you we were right, we gave advice on something we happen to know something about. I don't give advice on something I don't know... driving on shitty roads in shitty weather... I know.

I am surprised that with the crappy brakes of the XJ's, specially with bigger tires nun of you non believers have ever popped the tranny in neutral coming down a steep rock face or hill for better braking when on the trail. I do this all the time and the braking is much better and controlled. This is the same effect as what boomhauer and beakie are trying to explain.

1996cc said:

I tried it on the way home on bare pavement. Under braking, if you keep a steady pressure on the pedal (i.e. don't move your foot), and slip the tranny into neutral - based on what you two are saying, I should feel the vehicle start to slow down faster i.e. the braking force should increase with the same amount of pressure on the pedal. I did not notice any difference what so ever. And putting it back in drive before I came to a stop didn't change anything either - it didn't lurch forward. So if you two (and others reading) want to row your shifter everytime you stop, go right ahead, but I won't be wasting the effort.

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As for the steady pressure. We are talking about coming to a stop ASAP. Your sliding into traffic/parked car/kids and you floor the brake pedal. Not 'applying steady pressure' 'feathering the brake' or any other technique we've been told. This is 'holy shit! STOP!' braking, you re-act by mashing the brakes down and slap the shifter into neutral, again thats why if you slap the shifter forward it only goes so far. One so you don't jump it into reverse... two because it was designed to goto N from any gear.

So we can get back on track here, do you have a nondisco front end or not, I have been trying to decide if i want to throw a lunchbox locker up front, I have a 1998 d30 non disco, and from what i understand those types of lockers only really work with torque applied, as with my rear locker?!

check out this thread on that topic the other day
http://www.naxja.org/forum/showthread.php?t=101701