Range of govt power

RichP · Sep 20, 2009

I'm amazed at the extent of the power of the courts. Example is that pervert who was prosecuted for various kinds of perverted sex he had OUTSIDE THE US.
At what point can they pass a law that restricts free speech so you leave the US and go somewhere else at which point they can prosecute you for it. It's early yet and I'm still on my first cup of coffee.

goodburbon · Sep 20, 2009

Isn't that the governmental equivalent of pulling someone over and giving them a ticket for 65 in a 25 mph zone, because they were clocked going 65 on the highway?

WB9YZU · Sep 20, 2009

US courts believe they have power everywhere. It is not uncommon for people to sue people and governments for events that happened outside US juristition.

The idea being that their assets that flow though the US can be frozen or confiscated.

The problem, as you point out, is that it is not the courts juristiction. There are also moral issues, and recipricosity at stake. If a US Citizen commits murder in Mexico, and manages to come home, should he be allowed to escape unscathed because he is a good boy at home? He still commited murder, right?

Ron

WB9YZU · Sep 20, 2009

goodburbon said:
Isn't that the governmental equivalent of pulling someone over and giving them a ticket for 65 in a 25 mph zone, because they were clocked going 65 on the highway?

Something like that happend to me. A State Trooper followed me out of a gas station on a local street. He waited until I entered the Interstate (his territory) to pull me over and give me a warning for fender flairs.

Ron

JNickel101 · Sep 20, 2009

...hell, I'm still trying to figure out how we're supposed to afford Constitutional rights to non-US citizens - living in or outside of this country. Either way, it doesn't make sense to me....personally, I think if you break the law, your "rights" go right out the window....

wolfpackjeeper · Sep 20, 2009

Zuki-Ron said:
Something like that happend to me. A State Trooper followed me out of a gas station on a local street. He waited until I entered the Interstate (his territory) to pull me over and give me a warning for fender flairs.

Ron

I read his statement as being completely different. In your case you deserved the ticket, he just waited until you were rightfully in his jurisdiction AND committing the infraction.

He is saying that it would be like you doing 65 on the highway, then exiting and moving to a local road and complying with the local limit of 25mph, where the cop ticketed you as if you doing 65 on the hwy mattered now.

CherBear · Sep 20, 2009

Zuki-Ron said:
Something like that happend to me. A State Trooper followed me out of a gas station on a local street. He waited until I entered the Interstate (his territory) to pull me over and give me a warning for fender flairs.

Ron

Well you still did break the law in HIS jurisdiction. At least he gave you a warning.

WB9YZU · Sep 20, 2009

wolfpackjeeper said:
I read his statement as being completely different. In your case you deserved the ticket, he just waited until you were rightfully in his jurisdiction AND committing the infraction.

He is saying that it would be like you doing 65 on the highway, then exiting and moving to a local road and complying with the local limit of 25mph, where the cop ticketed you as if you doing 65 on the hwy mattered now.

OK, Gotcha. You're right, I read it a bit different than that. Like one was speeding on the freeway, then exited and was picked up by a LEO while complying with the local speedlimit.

Ron

WB9YZU · Sep 20, 2009

CherBear said:
Well you still did break the law in HIS jurisdiction. At least he gave you a warning.

Actually, the vehicle was out of compliance with a regulation. I broke no law, so no crime was commited.

It was a bad example // I withdraw it //

Ron

alex22 · Sep 20, 2009

Zuki-Ron said:
The problem, as you point out, is that it is not the courts juristiction. There are also moral issues, and recipricosity at stake. If a US Citizen commits murder in Mexico, and manages to come home, should he be allowed to escape unscathed because he is a good boy at home? He still commited murder, right?

Ron

In that case the murderer (suspect) should be extradited back to Mexico for trial in the jurisdiction where the crime was committed. Even though he would most likely rather be in a US prison than a Mexican prison.

WB9YZU · Sep 20, 2009

That's where the reciprocity deal comes in.

I believe Mexico has to request that the suspect be extradited. Since he's a US citizen we just can't kick him out.

Remember the case of the GM worker that they found out was a SS guard in a concentration camp and had not gone though the post war trials? He was a naturalized citizen, so Germany had to request that he be extradited. He had a clean record here.

Ron

JNickel101 · Sep 20, 2009

Isn't there something called statute of limitations? I remember hearing about that "case", but was wondering how he could still be tried/punished for it after so many years.

I'm not advocating it....I think if you commit the crime, you should be tried/punished accordingly, no matter what the timeframe....

EDIT: just looked it up - "Crimes against humanity" have no statute of limitations. Excellent....

RichP · Sep 21, 2009

Zuki-Ron said:
The problem, as you point out, is that it is not the courts juristiction. There are also moral issues, and recipricosity at stake. If a US Citizen commits murder in Mexico, and manages to come home, should he be allowed to escape unscathed because he is a good boy at home? He still commited murder, right?

Ron

What if, for example, murder was legal in mexico, should you be prosecuted here for doing a normal thing in mexico just because it's a crime here ? To be tried and convicted of a crime HERE that may or may not be a crime somewhere else where you committed it. Thats the part that bothers me.
Who was it, Gary Glitter that got busted in vietnam for sex with a minor so other countries pretty much have the sex trades covered legally, how do we get off with arresting and prosecuting a crime that was commited somewhere else and may not be crime there.

goodburbon · Sep 21, 2009

A better example would be a woman from a strict muslim country traveling to the west and being arrested when she returns for wearing a bikini while out of country...

WB9YZU · Sep 21, 2009

Hmmm...

Rich, do you have a link to a specific case?

Also IIRC, Gary Glitter got caught in Vietnam for underage sex with a minor in Vietnam, by Vietnamees(sp!) authorites. I also believe he was still in country.

Goodburbon: You need to provide pictures with your examples

Ron

goodburbon · Sep 21, 2009

We're talking about muslim women here Ron, Picture chewbacca in a bikini.

RichP · Sep 21, 2009

Zuki-Ron said:
Hmmm...

Rich, do you have a link to a specific case?

Also IIRC, Gary Glitter got caught in Vietnam for underage sex with a minor in Vietnam, by Vietnamees(sp!) authorites. I also believe he was still in country.

Goodburbon: You need to provide pictures with your examples

Ron

The one that triggered my posting was the guy who US authorities arrested last week on 'sex tour' charges, it was on CNN for a couple of days. It just sits wrong with me that the US can prosecute someone for a so called crime that was done outside the country and may have been perfectly legal under that countries laws.
That would be valid for someone under UCMJ but a civilian, not real comfortable with that.

wolfpackjeeper · Sep 21, 2009

goodburbon said:
A better example would be a woman from a strict muslim country traveling to the west and being arrested when she returns for wearing a bikini while out of country...

There they would say that the law of Islam is not limited by boundaries.

fscrig75 · Sep 21, 2009

RichP said:
The one that triggered my posting was the guy who US authorities arrested last week on 'sex tour' charges, it was on CNN for a couple of days. It just sits wrong with me that the US can prosecute someone for a so called crime that was done outside the country and may have been perfectly legal under that countries laws.
That would be valid for someone under UCMJ but a civilian, not real comfortable with that.

I think he with 2 other guys set up the trip while they were still in America and specifically requested minors. I also think the Vnam authorities contacted the FBI about this.
Maybe our Gov't requested to prosecute these guys and Vnam agreed.

RichP · Sep 22, 2009

fscrig75 said:
I think he with 2 other guys set up the trip while they were still in America and specifically requested minors. I also think the Vnam authorities contacted the FBI about this.
Maybe our Gov't requested to prosecute these guys and Vnam agreed.

Yea, I agree, they should have cut their nuts off, what they did somewhere else though and to get prosecuted here, thats what bothers me. I don't like that kind of precedent, if Vn passed and our govt decided to have a whack at them thats seems to me like some variation of double jeopardy.

Range of govt power

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