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Failed Smog...

AJTorris

NAXJA Forum User
Location
California
Ok well i failed smog just now. I have high Nox. Max is 1090 and i got 1805 at 15 mph and at 25 mph max is 1130 and i got 1400. What would cause this? Also my EVAP canister is plugged and tank hose is missing. I am going to fix this. And then i am missing a vacume line to the air filter box. So i need to figure out where it goes.

My question is what would cause the Nox to be so high?
 
What were your other readings? If I remember right, NOx is caused by high combustion chamber temps. You could try colder plugs but that would raise your HC's so it depends if you have room. I would say run some seamfoam through the intake and see if it can clean some deposits out of your combustion chamber (I think I recall a build up raising chamber temps too). DO a search, there is alot of useful info and I am sure someone else will chime in too......especially if I am wrong. haha
 
Here are my readings....
%C02
15 MPH Meas 11.78
25 MPH Meas 11.73

%02
15 MPH Meas 3.75
25 MPH Meas 3.48
HC (ppm)
15 MPH Max 133 Ave 43 Meas 94\
25 MPH Max 104 AVE 32 Meas 97

CO (%)
15 MPH Max 0.89 Ave 0.16 Meas 0.40
25 MPH Max 1.12 Ave 0.15 Meas 0.36

NO (PPM)
15 MPH Max 1090 Ave 406 Meas 1805
25 MPH Max 1130 Ave 349 Meas 1400
 
well i realized that i had some vacume lines missing/broke. I replaced them and put a different EGR valve on and now it cuts out every now and then. I didnt go see if it will pass yet though.
 
What year is your jeep?

Seafoam & change the oil won't hurt. Check all the hoses to the EGR and EGR solenoid. Check the O2 sensor. I had an 88 that I had to change the O2 sensor every time before it would pass smog.
 
Mine fails due to "non-functioning" egr.. you know anyone who will overlook this, and you can use it for your test too.
 
my 95 failed for the same reason, if you search my username and the keyword smog you should find my thread about it. a new cat solved my problem, the one i replaced was about 4 years old. i also switched to a colder plug, champion RC9YC's

good luck, passing smog with a jeep is a real pain in the ass.
 
Seafoam treatment in the intake manifold will help a lot. It will help burn out the carbon build up in the combustion chambers that supports high temps that leads to higher NOx. As high as your numbers are you might want to do it twice, and add a can to about 6 gallons of gas in the gas tank, then get it on the highway and push it hard for a good 50 miles.
IF that does doesn't get you through ( I hear it works 90% of the time on NOx only problems), then look into a bad O2 sensor system (wiring, heater relay, and the sensor, get out the multi meter and run live tests) and possible need for a new cat.

You need to get the EGR working properly, cutting out is a sign of a bad EGR.
 
I barely passed smog with high N0X readings and shortly after that I took the head off and found that the valves weren't sealing well because of deposits on them. I know it's a big job but cleaning up my head and lapping the valves till they seated properly significantly improved my power and fuel economy. It may be worth your time.
 
NOX (oxides of Nitrogen) emissions are a particulate emission that is caused by combustion chamber temps in excess of 1800 degrees. The device that is primarily responsible for lowering combustion chamber temps is the EGR valve. First I would make sure that the egr system is working properly. This is easy to do if you have a vacuum pump with a gauge. PM me for the procedure. The catalytic converter also plays a large role in reducing NOX, but the cat relys on a properly functioning O2 sensor. Testing these items is a bit more difficult and requires some specialized equipment. By looking at your emissions readings and performing a Lambda calculation it appears that the vehicle is running a little lean. This could cause the Catalytic Converter to stop working. I recommend fixing any vacuum leaks. And make sure EGR is functional. Top end cleaning could not hurt as increased compression due to carbon buildup will cause NOX. Do not use any heat range plug other than the one specified. Plug heat range has no effect on combustion chamber temp, only flame propagation, and this is not your problem.
 
I was going to tell you to talk to Eric, but I see he just answered. :)

PM him, and get his number.
 
NOX (oxides of Nitrogen) emissions are a particulate emission that is caused by combustion chamber temps in excess of 1800 degrees. The device that is primarily responsible for lowering combustion chamber temps is the EGR valve. First I would make sure that the egr system is working properly. This is easy to do if you have a vacuum pump with a gauge. PM me for the procedure. The catalytic converter also plays a large role in reducing NOX, but the cat relys on a properly functioning O2 sensor. Testing these items is a bit more difficult and requires some specialized equipment. By looking at your emissions readings and performing a Lambda calculation it appears that the vehicle is running a little lean. This could cause the Catalytic Converter to stop working. I recommend fixing any vacuum leaks. And make sure EGR is functional. Top end cleaning could not hurt as increased compression due to carbon buildup will cause NOX. Do not use any heat range plug other than the one specified. Plug heat range has no effect on combustion chamber temp, only flame propagation, and this is not your problem.


Just FYI, NOx is not a particulate, it is a gas. Also, while you are right on the purpose of the EGR, most jeeps can meet NOx emissions limits easily with out the EGR, in fact it was deleted on HO 4.0s. EGRs over time, and fubared O2 sensor systems that let the engine run rich tend to build up lots of carbon in the combustion chamber, that leads to high NOx emissions, as we both pointed out. He does need to fix the EGR to fix the hesitation/miss he noted that showed up after reinstalling the EGR, as that might re-fail it also.
 
Just FYI, NOx is not a particulate, it is a gas. Also, while you are right on the purpose of the EGR, most jeeps can meet NOx emissions limits easily with out the EGR, in fact it was deleted on HO 4.0s. EGRs over time, and fubared O2 sensor systems that let the engine run rich tend to build up lots of carbon in the combustion chamber, that leads to high NOx emissions, as we both pointed out. He does need to fix the EGR to fix the hesitation/miss he noted that showed up after reinstalling the EGR, as that might re-fail it also.


When the EGR was deleted the camshaft overlap was changed to trap exhaust gas in the combustion chamber. A jeep 4.0 is not capable of easily passing NOX without some provision for reduction of combustion chamber temp. At least thats the way it was explained to me by the Chrysler engineer that taught the Jeep factory advanced driveability class that I took. While it is true that thermal NOx (or simple NO) is a gas, it is my understanding that the formation of Fuel NOx includes some particulate matter as a result of the combustion of the char portion of the fuel, which is nearly 100% carbon. Goatman and I were just discussing this very topic night before last. The particulars of the gas composition really are inconsequential to the discussion, I was just trying to answer his question, "what would cause the NOX to be so high?" And maybe give him some advice that would help him get it fixed.
 
Just FYI, NOx is not a particulate, it is a gas. Also, while you are right on the purpose of the EGR, most jeeps can meet NOx emissions limits easily with out the EGR, in fact it was deleted on HO 4.0s. EGRs over time, and fubared O2 sensor systems that let the engine run rich tend to build up lots of carbon in the combustion chamber, that leads to high NOx emissions, as we both pointed out. He does need to fix the EGR to fix the hesitation/miss he noted that showed up after reinstalling the EGR, as that might re-fail it also.

Ahh, you're talking to a certified smog tech, past Jeep dealership shop foreman, and the best (smartest) auto diagnostic tech I have ever known or worked with. Eric finds and fixes the stuff others can't get done. I'd consider him an expert on the subject.
 
Ahh, you're talking to a certified smog tech, past Jeep dealership shop foreman, and the best (smartest) auto diagnostic tech I have ever known or worked with. Eric finds and fixes the stuff others can't get done. I'd consider him an expert on the subject.

Always nice to know what people's credentials are. Even the best of us can things wrong, except me of course, LOL.:laugh3:

Eric sounds like me. I am one of those people known for taking apart something I have never seen, with no training or manuals, and fixing it. Chemical Engineering, pollution, environmental engineering is my area. While I am not an absolute expert on NOx, I know a few things, and know how and where to figure some of the more obscure details, but I am not a combustion engineer, so there are grey areas for me, as I am sure there are for you guys.

Some of what I learned about Jeep NOx and jeep EGRs I learned 5-90, who has proven first hand that the Renix jeep has lower NOx emissions with out the EGR, but I have never chalenged him on the test conditioins, I only know that the conditions were the standard California (near LA?) test methods and conditions, which might be different from what Chrysler was forced to use by EPA 20 years ago.
 
When the EGR was deleted the camshaft overlap was changed to trap exhaust gas in the combustion chamber. A jeep 4.0 is not capable of easily passing NOX without some provision for reduction of combustion chamber temp. At least thats the way it was explained to me by the Chrysler engineer that taught the Jeep factory advanced driveability class that I took. While it is true that thermal NOx (or simple NO) is a gas, it is my understanding that the formation of Fuel NOx includes some particulate matter as a result of the combustion of the char portion of the fuel, which is nearly 100% carbon. Goatman and I were just discussing this very topic night before last. The particulars of the gas composition really are inconsequential to the discussion, I was just trying to answer his question, "what would cause the NOX to be so high?" And maybe give him some advice that would help him get it fixed.

Wasn't trying to jerk your chain, you obviously have some excellant training, knowledge and experience to be proud of, I was just trying to teach some basic chemistry / terminolgy, as the term caught my attention, and being a chemical engineer, and hanging out in a tech forum here, it got my attention.

Very interesting to hear that the cam is different between HO and Renix, and at least part of the why! Thanks. I made some comments below in another post about 5-90's tests on live California emissions test equipment that showed equal or lower NOx emissions on the same engine without the EGR, versus with it. It is a pet peave of his, he claims he has even tried to convince the State people that the EGR is more trouble than it is worth on the renix 4.0 at least.

NOx means NO, NO2, and NO3, all of which are gasses. The X is just an algebraic variable, short hand for 1,2 or 3. When measuring a pollutant like NOx, they are only measuring the number of N atoms, that are bound to O (oxygen) atoms by measuring the number of N to O bounds which absorb a specific wavelength of light, and the loss of that wavelength of light (missing photons) passing through a sample is detected to quantify the number of NOx gas molecules in the exhaust.

While the particulate is part of the air pollution story it is not what is measured and quantified in the engine exhaust to my knowledge, and I deal with the chemcal plant end of that sort of lab equipment where they also monitor and measure NOx emissions. The NOx reacts with VOCs (molecules of gasoline are VOCs, and natural VOCs like turpines from local pine trees) and forms particles that are called smog. To my knowledge the particulate formation, smog happens after the NOX hits the atmosphere and cools. The smog (particulate) formation is typical trigger by UV light from the sun hitting an NOx or VOC molecule.

VOC = Volotile Organic Compound

Back on topic, I have been told by several experts, including a local Texas auto emissions tester (*) here in Houston, and 5-90, that running a good cleaner through the intake and gas tank (dual treatment) to clean the carbon build up in the intake, and especiallly the combustion chamber out (*)"has never failed to fix and pass a high NOx only failed vehicle" in his experience. However, the tests in California (LA), are tougher than here so who knows, but if the CAT is working well enough to keep the CO and hydrocabons with CA limits, chances are cleaning all the crap out of the combustion chamber may do the trick for him on NOx.
 
The shop where I work is a California Gold Shield Station and is authorized to do Consumer Assistance Program repairs. This means that the California Bureau of Automotive Repair has final say on the methods of diagnosis and repair that we use. In the case of an emissions failure the first thing that we must do is determine if the vehicle is in fuel control. In other words is the fuel injection system operating close to stoichometric ratio (14.7:1 air fuel ratio by weight) The way that we make this determination is by using a Lambda calculator. Lambda is a term that has been used by the Germans for years, in fact they refer to an O2 sensor as a Lambda sensor. The cool thing about Lambda calculations is that they are accurate no matter what the other smog control systems are doing. Even if the cat is bad and you are reading post cat emissions, the Lambda calc will still be good. Just take the vehicles emission readings and plug them into a Lambda calculator. I use the one at www.Iatn.net but there is one you can use at www.smogsite.com/calculators.html without being a member. The best Lambda reading is 1 but anything from .98 to 1.02 is acceptable. If the Lambda reading is within these numbers it is safe to assume that the vehicle is in fuel control. I always use a lab scope to check O2 sensor amplitude and modulation because a lazy O2 sensor can keep the vehicle in fuel trim but still allow Catalytic efficiecy to fall below threshold. If vehicle is determined to be in fuel trim emissions systems are checked. Catalytic converters are checked using a cranking CO2 test. The cat is heated by holding throttle at 2500 rpms until emissions drop to their lowest level(this test requires a 5 gas analyzer) then ignition system is disabled and engine is cranked allowing fuel to go through cylinders and into catalytic converter. HC emissions should not exceed 500 ppm and CO2 emission (product of combustion) should exceed 12 %. If both of these parameters are not met, cat is probably bad. This is the only test that is accepted by the B.A.R. to condemn a cat besides intrusive testing (drilling a hole before and after)

Sorry to the original poster if I hijacked your thread. Hopefully there is something here you can use. Or p.m. me if I can be of more help.
 
I need to drag you over to one of my older O2 sensor threads in the OEM forum here.

Thanks for posting the links!

There is also an OEM forum thread where I have asked owners to post their emissions test data, building a sort of XJ data base on pass / fail results.

Do you all run live running tests on OBD-II years there? Here in Texas, if the computer is clean of codes you pass, no tests.
 
I need to drag you over to one of my older O2 sensor threads in the OEM forum here.

Thanks for posting the links!

There is also an OEM forum thread where I have asked owners to post their emissions test data, building a sort of XJ data base on pass / fail results.

Do you all run live running tests on OBD-II years there? Here in Texas, if the computer is clean of codes you pass, no tests.

I am assuming you mean dynamometer testing. Here it is known as ASM (acceleration simulation mode) we do one test at 15 mph and one at 25 mph. The 15 mph is at higher load than the 25 mph. Our Test Analyzer System (T.A.S.) is also hooked to the diagnostic link to check for codes. The vehicle must have no codes and have most of the monitors run or the vehicle will fail.Bakersfield is located at the south end of the San Joaquin Valley, and it has been deemed a "severe non attainment area" which means our pollution is every bit as bad as the L.A. basin. There are some surounding rural areas that are TSI (two speed idle test) we see some of those vehicles here in town. Those vehicles require functional EGR testing. ASM tests do not get EGR functional tests because we measure NOx under load on those vehicles. All wheel drive vehicles and vehicles with non disengageable traction control also get TSI tests. The rules are the same for pre OBD2 vehicles except those vehicles also get a functional evaporative emissions system test where we hook up a machine to the fuel tank, pinch off the vapor line at the evap canister and check evap system integrity.

We have several levels of government here where air quality is concerned. The Federal Government is really the least of our concerns because The California Air Resources Board (C.A.R.B) regulations are much more stringent. Those laws are administered by the Bureau of Automotive Repair (B.A.R) which is the executive branch of the Department of Consumer Affairs. Then here in the San Joaquin Valley we have the Valley Air Resources Board, which is actually more concerned with industrial emissions and Dust (PM10) because this is a very agricultural area.
 
I need to drag you over to one of my older O2 sensor threads in the OEM forum here.

Thanks for posting the links!

There is also an OEM forum thread where I have asked owners to post their emissions test data, building a sort of XJ data base on pass / fail results.

Do you all run live running tests on OBD-II years there? Here in Texas, if the computer is clean of codes you pass, no tests.

I am assuming you mean dynamometer testing. Here it is known as ASM (acceleration simulation mode) we do one test at 15 mph and one at 25 mph. The 15 mph is at higher load than the 25 mph. Our Test Analyzer System (T.A.S.) is also hooked to the diagnostic link to check for codes. The vehicle must have no codes and have most of the monitors run or the vehicle will fail.Bakersfield is located at the south end of the San Joaquin Valley, and it has been deemed a "severe non attainment area" which means our pollution is every bit as bad as the L.A. basin. There are some surounding rural areas that are TSI (two speed idle test) we see some of those vehicles here in town. Those vehicles require functional EGR testing. ASM tests do not get EGR functional tests because we measure NOx under load on those vehicles. All wheel drive vehicles and vehicles with non disengageable traction control also get TSI tests. The rules are the same for pre OBD2 vehicles except those vehicles also get a functional evaporative emissions system test where we hook up a machine to the fuel tank, pinch off the vapor line at the evap canister and check evap system integrity.

We have several levels of government here where air quality is concerned. The Federal Government is really the least of our concerns because The California Air Resources Board (C.A.R.B) regulations are much more stringent. Those laws are administered by the Bureau of Automotive Repair (B.A.R) which is the executive branch of the Department of Consumer Affairs. Then here in the San Joaquin Valley we have the Valley Air Resources Board, which is actually more concerned with industrial emissions and Dust (PM10) because this is a very agricultural area.
 
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