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Dipping my toes in the stroker world

nochance9

NAXJA Forum User
Location
ogden ut
So i've been doing tons and tons of research on strokers since my buddie just replaced his engine and gave me the old one... I'm thinking of doing a 4.7 and found this page that has helped alot http://www.cherokeeforum.com/showthread.php?t=15710&highlight=stroker But i'm totally new at engine tollerences and measurments. So i'm kinda lost in the technical parts... IE 3.895" 4.2 crank... So i have some questions and would really appreciate your guys' help.

First off, will the parts mentioned here work well?
Second, Crane cams went under so would the Comp cca 682324 work? Or any other cam suggestions would be great.
Third, do i really need a 68mm TB? would a 62mm work?
Fourth, i was looking for crank prices and found this website...

http://www.rpmmachine.com/crankshaft-kits-amc-jeep.shtml

but what is the difference between a 72-86 crank and a 87-90?

I have a 92 block and head but could easly go to the well stocked JY and pull something else if you guys think it would be a good idea. I'm allready going to get a 99+ head and intake. It's going in an 89 but i want to totally rewire it (lots of electrical ghosts and dicintagrating wires) and swich it over to OBD2 at the same time and ditch the renix. Even possible?


I know it's a lot of questions, but i don't really know who else to turn to.

Thank you for your support!
 
I'll answer what I can offhand.

Engine work requires greater attention to detail - and that's usually what trips people up. If you don't like working down in increments of one-thousandth of an inch (.001",) don't bother. You'll drive yourself nuts. (I happen to enjoy measurable precision.)

The "bored" throttle body isn't really a performance adder - the OEM throttle body will allow enough airflow. However, if you've got a 1991-up rig, note that the later SBFord throttle bodies should fit right up - you can get one for a 302 or the 4.6L "modular" engine for less than buying a purpose-build "bored" unit, and usually for rather less (including cleaning the thing up.) What a "bored" tbody will get you is crisper part-throttle response - which most people will mistake for a "performance increase." It's a misperception - but if it's something that's important to you, keep it in mind.

The early crank (1972-1986) is set up for V-belts, and has a snout that is 10m/m longer than the 1987-1990 crank. This means you either have to have 10m/m cut off of the crankshaft snout, or have a 10m/m thick spacer made to go between the crankshaft nose screw washer and the harmonic damper to fit it properly into the 242ci. This spacer can be easily made by cutting a 10m/m slice off of an old 242 or 258ci harmonic damper (and you should put a new HD on an overhauled engine anyhow - so you'll have one lying about all of a sudden. Any competent machinist with a lathe can do this job for you in the space of a few minutes.)

Forego the #0331 (1999-up) cylinder head - search up "0331 Club" around here if you want to know why. Get a #0630 or #7120 cylinder head - this is the casting number visible outside of the valve cover, above the #3/#4 exhaust ports. #7120 was 1991-1995, and #0630 was 1996-1998/1999.

The control changeover is possible, but you will either want the donor vehicle within walking distance (like the next bay over) for the parts that are invariably forgotten, or get every-damn-thing you even think you might need from the donor at the boneyard. If the wiring isn't totally compleat, and all electronics present, pass. You'll need at least the underhood and underdash wiring harnesses, the PCM, the PDC, make sure you get the diagnostic plug, probably the fuse block, ... I'm serious. You don't need to grab the sensors (you should get those new anyhow,) but get, at the very least, every scrap of wiring forward of the driver's seat (and I will probably want to talk to you about the pulled RENIX goodies, so please don't hack them up to get them out.)

Leaving out Crane (bummer,) there are still somewhere north of forty or fifty camshaft selections. Oddly enough, when I was writing the Power Manual, the best cams in sim were from an outfit I'd never even heard of - Lazer Cams. Look them up - a quick Googling should get you what you want. Results also looked good from Isky (Iskenderian.)

Got anything else?
 
Just built me a 4.6 stroker and I will say I am very happy with my Lunati cam. Not too aggressive but you can tell it's got a cam in it.

If your worried about it running on pump gas get your quench to .040-.046 IIRC. I think I'm at .046 and run fine on 87 oct. I'm also running forged pistons and Moly rings so my build cost went through the roof.

On the crankshaft I used hardened washers that fit over the woodruff key and inside the bezel of the HB. I didn't use enough so my HB walked forward on the crankshaft snout and caused my belt to cut my lower radiator hose. At that point I said screw it and ordered Hesco's adaptor.

Also I would stick with the renix and while it's at the machine shop have the drill and tap a hold for the knock sensor. My renix controled stroker runs awesome.

You may need a adjustable MAP sensor, and an adjustable fuel reg to go with your 24lb injectors.

Don't put a cork gasket on the valve cover I did and within 200 miles it's leaking like a scared puppy.

If you go with an aftermarket cam you will have to cut the tabs off the distributor to be able to set it in time. I didn't do that and couldn't get it too run right. I cut the tabs off and dropped it in, fired right up, idled down and no problems since.

I too say get new sensors, my budget got blown out of the water so I reused and was really nervous. I had some sensors that I had to replace after sitting while I was doing the motor. Would have been much easier to replace them all.

If you have never pulled a 4.0l go to the store and get a set of reverse torqs so you can get the top two bolts out of the trans/engine block. To get to said bolts you can hook up your engine hoist and removed the motor mounts from the block and lower it down to give you room to work.

When you go to put it back together there are 2 nuts and bolts that bolt through the engine/trans. I got 2 longer bolts to help me suck the trans/motor together. If you need clarification on this let me know.

If you use the newer head/intake then you will need to do something about your fuel rail. The fuel rail for an 89 will not work in the new intakes. I would look for the fuel rail out of a 95 so that you are sure it has the return line to your tank. If you go with the newer intake you will also need a late model throttle cable and there is a kickdown cable with automatics that you need also. ( don't know for sure mine is a stick).

If you stick with the renix control, and a new TB then you will need to either get an adaptor from Hesco or build your own. Hesco's is expensive but worth it IMO.

Just a few things I ran into stroking my 95. Keep an eye out on the local forums for blown 4.0 or 4.2 for your parts. I ended up getting my 96 head, intake, and TB off from a blown motor for less that I could have gotten the parts at a JY. I ended up finding a guy that had a crank and was going to sell me the rods and crank for 40 bucks but ended up just giving it too me. Still had to spend money to get it turned down but still cheaper in the long run.


Parakeet
 
Wow! thanks for all the feed back. i'll adress you individualy...


5-90, it's not that i don't like dealing in persise measurments i just haven't had the opportunity and i'm anxious to learn! It's kinda hard trying to teach yourself about such complex things. I will take your advice on the model head to use. And thanks for clearing up the crank confusion. Just to make sure, the late model crank would need no modifacation for use in my stroker? I'll look into those throttle bodies you mentioned. Which models of ford should i look for? (i'm lucky and have 3 highly stocked JYs within 15min) As far as the wiring harness goes, in the latest issue of JP there was a thing about a company selling full wiring harnesses for 4.0 swaps should i look into this as a possible option? And thank you again for all the info and stuff you've given me a lot to chew on.


4wdParakeet,
Also i need to thank you for your imput, i was worried people would just think i didn't search and not help me out.... As far as pump gas goes i was actually thinking of running a W/M (water/methane) injection. I don't know if jeepers do this alot but i have alot of tuner friends and also some background in the 4 banger turbo area. That would lower intake temps and the methane is like 120 octane or somethin like that so i think that will give me enough octane boost to keep my compression ratio and still buy pump gas. Also boosts economy a bit. I'd really like to ditch the Renix, but at this point i need to price everything out and see if it's an option i could afford so it's not totally out the window. Quite a bit of wiring would still need to be replaced though. I talked about my buddie swapin in a new engine... Well it was more like me swaping it in and teaching him about mechanics lol. Pluss two trans swaps and another engine swaps under my belt means i know those stupid dirty retarded bolts you're talking about all too well haha. We actually bent up a pipe to make a tool just for those two stinkers, i hadn't thought of longer bolts though, good idea! Putting that one in the keeper pile. And i will definately keep my eyes on the swap and buy section for cranks and other stuff for my project because budget is there...


I haven't had time to read through those other threads but will asap, school just started and homework takes all my time it seeems. :/


Thanks again for all the imput, it's nice to have people who know what you're trying to learn around. I love NAXJA! :D
 
There are some that have done the water/methane injection but I haven't really seen it here. You may want to check jeepstrokers.com they have a good knowledge base there.

Just to give you an idea here's my setup

89 block
96 head, intake, TB, Fuel rail, throttle cable
Lunati Voodoo cam and lifters
Keith Black 944 pistons
4.2L Crank
4.0L Rods
19 LB injectors out of a mustang, I really should be running the 24lb.

I could have saved myself about 400 bucks by getting a set of cast pistons and having them dished to keep my compression down. I decided though I wanted the forged pistons incase I decided to add more power or forced air induction.

Also the quench should really be at the magic number even if you aren't worried about running pump gas, Why risk ping.

And I still vote for keeping the renix control, a little wiring repair is better than trying to figure out a wiring harness in my book.

Also think about changing the radiator and converting it to an open system while you have it apart. It's stupid to have a nice clean motor and an old cooling system that has 20 years of scale inside of it.

Also it seems like a 180* stat is the norm in the strokers. I run it and it only sniffs 210 when I'm wheeling in 95+ degrees. I also wired my aux fan to run off a switch, so I can decide when the fan comes on.


Parakeet
 
There are some that have done the water/methane injection but I haven't really seen it here. You may want to check jeepstrokers.com they have a good knowledge base there.

Just to give you an idea here's my setup

89 block
96 head, intake, TB, Fuel rail, throttle cable
Lunati Voodoo cam and lifters
Keith Black 944 pistons
4.2L Crank
4.0L Rods
19 LB injectors out of a mustang, I really should be running the 24lb.

I could have saved myself about 400 bucks by getting a set of cast pistons and having them dished to keep my compression down. I decided though I wanted the forged pistons incase I decided to add more power or forced air induction.

Also the quench should really be at the magic number even if you aren't worried about running pump gas, Why risk ping.

And I still vote for keeping the renix control, a little wiring repair is better than trying to figure out a wiring harness in my book.

Also think about changing the radiator and converting it to an open system while you have it apart. It's stupid to have a nice clean motor and an old cooling system that has 20 years of scale inside of it.

Also it seems like a 180* stat is the norm in the strokers. I run it and it only sniffs 210 when I'm wheeling in 95+ degrees. I also wired my aux fan to run off a switch, so I can decide when the fan comes on.


Parakeet

I've got a pretty new 3 core radiator that i was hoping to keep... When you say changing it to an open system, what does that mean?...
Also, (i feel stupid for asking) what exactly is quench?...
 
You are going to have to search for that one I can't think of the right way to explain it. But the simple way to explain it is you get rid of the pressure bottle and replace it with an overflow tank, then you get a heater control valve from a 94ish, and replace the radiator with one out of a 94ish.

There is a lot of debate which system is better but it seems like on the jeeps they have problems with the pressure bottle cracking. Open systems are a lot easier to get the air out of them compared to the closed systems we have IMO. There are some other benifits but like I said it's getting too late for me to think straight.

You should be able to keep the radiator and just add a filler neck in a hose, some have done that just so they wouldn't have to buy a new radiator.


Parakeet
 
Quench is where the piston sits in relation to the deck of the block.

And I had a nice explanation of closed vs open systems and my pc screwed up and I lost it. Since I don't feel like typing you get the condensed version.

In the conversion you get rid of the problematic pressure bottle and replace it with an overflow tank, replace the heater control valve with a 95ish, and the radiator out of a 95ish (I say 95ish since I don't think it matters on what year so long as it's new enough to be an open system). You can keep your closed system radiator, you just have to add a filler neck to the upper radiator hose. Search Closed system conversion and somebody will explain it much better than I could.


Parakeet
 
Wow! thanks for all the feed back. i'll adress you individualy...

5-90, it's not that i don't like dealing in persise measurments i just haven't had the opportunity and i'm anxious to learn! It's kinda hard trying to teach yourself about such complex things. I will take your advice on the model head to use. And thanks for clearing up the crank confusion. Just to make sure, the late model crank would need no modifacation for use in my stroker? I'll look into those throttle bodies you mentioned. Which models of ford should i look for? (i'm lucky and have 3 highly stocked JYs within 15min) As far as the wiring harness goes, in the latest issue of JP there was a thing about a company selling full wiring harnesses for 4.0 swaps should i look into this as a possible option? And thank you again for all the info and stuff you've given me a lot to chew on.

Given that I'm writing what (I hope...) will be the references for Jeep buildups, I probably have plenty to help you with!

Throttle bodies? Ford Pax 302ci V8 or 281ci V8 - Mustangs, Crown Vics, and like that. Merc/Lincoln with similar engines.

The late model crank should drop right in without having to cut the snout or install a spacer. It is, however, the "light weight" crank (either four or six counterweights, I don't recall offhand) and would work better if you're putting an automatic behind it. If you're going to use a stick, you're probably better off either getting the early "12-cw" crank (twelve counterweights, and about fifteen extra pounds rotating weight,) or/and having your flywheel machined for an "inertia ring" - which is a "heavy metal" band put into the backside of the flywheel, near the permeter (I think it's the same alloy used to weight a crankshaft for balancing, "Mallory Metal," as I recall.) This will help you when getting started from a standstill, but could negate the "crisp" part-throttle response you'd get from the bored tbody (up to a certain point, they'd balance each other out. No, I don't know what that point is offhand.) The earlier crank can be installed unmodified - you'll just need to have a 10m/m "slice" taken off of the rear end of your old harmonic damper. It all goes together in the order: harmonic damper-spacer-thick washer-screw, and that will properly locate and retain your harmonic damper.

First things first - find yourself a Factory Service Manual (even my books don't take the place of an FSM - I saw no need to reinvent the wheel, and it's easier to ship a 200-page book than a 700-page book, not to mention printing, binding, ... I'm still very much a "one-man band," and I do all the work myself.) RENIX is a bit old, so try eBay. Alternatively, you could hit me backchannel (PM or e-mail off-list) and I'll check the Archives for you.

WRT cooling - I've yet to see any trouble with the RENIX cooling system - and I've owned five RENIX rigs to date. The only one that ran a little hot was the one that I bought already converted, and I was seriously considering converting it back. If the "closed" system is so flawed, why are OEMs going to it? My wife's 2005 Verona runs a closed system, and not a lick of trouble out of it.

The biggest problem with the RENIX cooling system is that the OEM radiators (per Jeep techs) tend to start to scale up around 150-180K miles +/- - and even the dealership up the street would install aftermarket Modine radiators (same brand I prefer, as it happens) to replace them. Problem solved. Flush it every two years and change the coolant, and it's a non-issue.

The "volume" bottles - with caps! - should still be available from Morris 4x4 Center (they're a sponsor, so look here for the link) for a reasonable fee. I find that 7-10 years seems to be about the average service life for the thing - so replace yours and order a spare. Write the date you install it on the new one.

The fan clutches are typically good for 4-5 years (regardless of model year - the XJ is just rough on them,) but they're readily available and write the date on them as well. I tend to use Hayden heavy-duty units, Flex-A-Lite, or similar (Hayden and Flex-A-Lite are easiest for me to get my hands on, and cost about half of OEM. I don't use much in the way of OEM parts...)

The plastic heater control valve (near the firewall) can be safely eliminated entirely - which removes a potential point of failure. If you're handy with a propane torch and silver solder, you can replace most of the heater hoses with copper lines (use 1/2" ID - it's right about 5/8" OD, and will fit neatly in 5/8" hose) and cut the cost of renewing that considerably. Moulded right-angle hoses are expensive, copper tube isn't really. NB: there are two spots where you'll need to go into a 3/4" hose, upsize the OD of the copper tube with a straight union. See here:
cuhtrhse.jpg


(Yes, it's a big pic. Yes, it's also mine. Nyar!)

Please don't ask me for measurements - I lost my notes, and need to refine the setup anyhow. However, it's a simple mod - that took me about a half-hour to stomp up.

The problem that most people have with the "closed" system is simple - you tend to get an air pocket behind the thermostat. The fix for that is also simple - drill two 1/16"-1/8" holes in the thermostat flange, 180* apart. Install with one hole at 12:00 and the other at 6:00. The system should then purge itself. (If you want to make sure you get the engine block filled up afterwards, disconnect the upper hose at the engine and slowly pour coolant into the thermostat housing. Let it trickle in. It's a bit slow, but it's easier than jacking up the rear and removing the temperature sensor, and it also gets it filled up a bit better. With less work. And - usually - less time.)

Wiring - I'm almost willing to bet that you're looking at an advert for Painless Performance. Their stuff is top-notch - and you pay for it. I've used several of their kits in the past with excellent results.

However, their kits are probably OBD-I/OBD-II, and I doubt they'd work with RENIX controls. No harm in askin', tho (I don't typically read the adverts in detail, I usually just scan over them looking for anything really different.)

Anything else? :lecture:
 
Now there is a guy that is able to give you more info than I could ever give you. And to give you a background as to why I converted. I got tired of cracking the pressure bottles. I went through 3 of them before I said screw it.

I was also buying used so that may have something to do with it. That and it was getting harder to find the pressure bottles used.


Parakeet
 
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