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testing a MAP sensor with a meter and vacuum pump?

Therefore correction for altitude should no be needed. But then again, if the MAP sensor is actually reporting true Absolute pressure, then I am all wet LOL. But I suspect it too is only reporting gauge pressure.

My understanding of it is that the sensor does report absolute pressure, ergo "(M)anifold (A)bsolute (P)ressure". It uses this, plus TPS and RPM data to calculate mass airflow into the manifold (it also uses the IAT data to add a density factor). Corrections for altitude + weather variations are critical to get it right.

The other way to do this is with a Mass Airflow Sensor, measuring the intake airflow directly.

Gauge pressure is going to be working against whatever the local absolute air pressure is; it can never be higher than this value.

I didn't figure this out until I went to check mine about a week ago (see over in the CA NoX thread). All my data points were consistently low across the entire band, making me suspect a bad sensor. Then I realized that I'm not at sea level, and once I applied a correction for that, it lined up really closely. You can even see the errors in my measurements using a cheap hand pump and eyeballs.

Here's some excellent background on the Delphi sensors originally speced by GM, drawings, error band, and all: http://www.robietherobot.com/Storm/mapsensor.htm

Note the way that they work is by layering a silicon wafer over a near-perfect vacuum, creating a measurable distortion in the wafer that varies with pressure. Because it's over a vacuum, it is, by definition, absolute pressure. (I would also suspect that a common failure mode is loss of that vacuum due to leakage, which would cause the sensor to read lower than actual manifold pressure, likely causing a lean condition due to thinking there's less air mass and thus less oxygen available).

With the data they show for the 1-Bar sensor, and my own measurements, I came up with something like this (this table is hard to line up):

(inHg) (kPa) Measured Delphi Spec
29.53 100.00 4.75
28.76 97.39 4.68
28.35 96.00 4.5
26.87 91.00 4.25
26.26 88.93 4.06
25.40 86.00 4
23.92 81.00 3.75
23.76 80.46 3.72
22.76 77.07 3.6
22.74 77.00 3.5
21.76 73.69 3.36
21.26 72.00 3.25
21.76 73.69 3.36
20.76 70.30 3.19
19.79 67.00 3
19.76 66.92 3.05
18.76 63.53 2.86
18.31 62.00 2.75
17.76 60.14 2.7
17.13 58.00 2.5
16.76 56.76 2.5
15.76 53.37 2.4
15.65 53.00 2.25
14.76 49.98 2.1
14.17 48.00 2
13.76 46.60 1.9
12.76 43.21 1.76
12.70 43.00 1.75
11.76 39.82 1.55
11.52 39.00 1.5
10.76 36.44 1.28
10.04 34.00 1.25
9.76 33.05 1.15
8.76 29.66 1.02
8.56 29.00 1
7.76 26.28 0.85
7.09 24.00 0.75
6.76 22.89 0.742
5.91 20.00 0.5
5.76 19.51 0.42
4.76 16.12 0.3
4.43 15.00 0.25
3.76 12.73 0.1
2.95 10.00 0

It looks like it's pretty much right on it.

(I have some data from a table that XJMike posted in the other thread, but I found errors in the way I integrated it, and need to fix it)

If you're going to do the same with the meter and a vacuum pump, here's how you correct the data to fit it.

First, to correct Kilopascals (kPa) to inches of mercury (inHg), divide kPa by 3.3864. Multiply to go the other way. If you have a hand pump, I would assume it to be calibrated in inHg.

Then, to find the local air pressure, you need to know 2 items:
(1) Local elevation
(2) Local barometric pressure

A simple "rule of thumb" for air pressure corrected for elevation is 1"Hg per 1000' elevation (not perfect, because the change with altitude is not linear, but it's good enough for low elevations).

So, for my elevation of about 1390'. that's a drop of 1.39" over the local barometric pressure. On the day I took these measurements, that was 30.15". Subtract the change for my elevation, and I have a local absolute pressure of 28.76" to work against. Note that this is my highest reading in the above table, at 0" of suction.

So, if I'm starting at 28.76, then 2" of vacuum becomes 26.76", 5" becomes 23.76", 10" becomes 18.76", and so on.

Another example: Let's say I was in Prescott, AZ today. The local elevation is 5050', with a barometric pressure of 30.26". So... 30.26 - 5.05" = 25.21" absolute air pressure. If I were to check a MAP sensor sitting still (0" suction applied), then I should see an output of just under 4V.

Hope that helps, y'all...
 
....aaaand that table didn't render right at all. Note that the Delphi spec numbers are all even increments of 5kPa, and that should help you see it. Damn...
 
Interesting feedback.

RPM is not relevant, only the IAC and MAP data plus the TPS and data tables in the ECU data are used in open loop and then in closed the O2 used as well.

If as you say, it is reading absolute pressure then the out side air pressure is not relevant to the output voltage/pressure reading from the MAP sensor.

So one or the other theory is wrong.

I did recently and years ago that at higher altitudes the engines can NOT draw as much vacuum, thus they would read lower MAP Absolute pressure at higher altitudes. So for now I am going go with your suggestion that the MAP sensor is an actual Absolute pressure sensor till I have time to read that link and dig deeper. And assume the earlier stuff I read about lower vacuum on engines at higher altitudes is also right. But I still have some doubts.

Thanks for the feed back!!!!

My understanding of it is that the sensor does report absolute pressure, ergo "(M)anifold (A)bsolute (P)ressure". It uses this, plus TPS and RPM data to calculate mass airflow into the manifold (it also uses the IAT data to add a density factor).

I didn't figure this out until I went to check mine about a week ago (see over in the CA NoX thread). All my data points were consistently low across the entire band, making me suspect a bad sensor. Then I realized that I'm not at sea level, and once I applied a correction for that, it lined up really closely. You can even see the errors in my measurements using a cheap hand pump and eyeballs.

Here's some excellent background on the Delphi sensors originally speced by GM, drawings, error band, and all: http://www.robietherobot.com/Storm/mapsensor.htm

Note the way that they work is by layering a silicon wafer over a near-perfect vacuum, creating a measurable distortion in the wafer that varies with pressure. Because it's over a vacuum, it is, by definition, absolute pressure. (I would also suspect that a common failure mode is loss of that vacuum due to leakage, which would cause the sensor to read lower than actual manifold pressure, likely causing a lean condition due to thinking there's less air mass and thus less oxygen available).
 
RPM is not relevant, only the IAC and MAP data plus the TPS and data tables in the ECU data are used in open loop and then in closed the O2 used as well.

Could be. I was always under the impression that RPM was part of the equation to know how much mass airflow was moving through the engine (combine it with manifold pressure and temperature, and you can compute how much oxygen is available to match up to hydrocarbons). But, heck, I've never written ECU firmware...

I put the data on something where it can be seen way better, see: https://sparkbytes.wordpress.com/2016/12/26/manifold-absolute-pressure-sensors-early-mopar-mpi/

Hope that's useful for anyone confirming their own sensors.
 
Well you have a point there if you are thinking mass flow per minute. But I suspect the ECU algorithm is using mass per stroke, mass per R-Revolution/3, to simplify the math?

Could be. I was always under the impression that RPM was part of the equation to know how much mass airflow was moving through the engine (combine it with manifold pressure and temperature, and you can compute how much oxygen is available to match up to hydrocarbons). But, heck, I've never written ECU firmware...

I put the data on something where it can be seen way better, see: https://sparkbytes.wordpress.com/2016/12/26/manifold-absolute-pressure-sensors-early-mopar-mpi/

Hope that's useful for anyone confirming their own sensors.
 
He makes a very good comment to watch out for vacuum gauge error!!!! In 40 years I have seen more gauge reading errors due to calibration issues than any where else. So they can be off by 5-10%, easy!!!
 
Well you have a point there if you are thinking mass flow per minute. But I suspect the ECU algorithm is using mass per stroke, mass per R-Revolution/3, to simplify the math?

Hmmm, I think we're saying the same thing, really. I stated it poorly.

I'm referring to RPM as a proxy for a "timed intake stroke". If we know what each intake stroke displaces, and the pressure/temperature of the air feeding it, then we can derive the amount of oxygen in the mass of each stroke, and match that with fuel. (I think the dynamic of speed might have something to do with it as well...the speed of which the molecules can move from the intake manifold past the intake valve will have a limit...I think).
 
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