• NAXJA is having its 18th annual March Membership Drive!!!
    Everyone who joins or renews during March will be entered into a drawing!
    More Information - Join/Renew
  • Welcome to the new NAXJA Forum! If your password does not work, please use "Forgot your password?" link on the log-in page. Please feel free to reach out to [email protected] if we can provide any assistance.

I need expert dog advice.

rag

NAXJA Forum User
Location
central NJ
This is truly an off topic discussion, do here goes;

I'm nearing desperation and currently i am searching the web in search of answers, in addition to this thread.

I have two female German shepherd dogs of 2 and 3 years of age.

Until today they have also worked things out between them, including food, sleep areas, water sources and toys. Both are extremely smart, healthy and immensely strong.

A fight broke out around 4pm today, I'm not talking about a growl and nip either. I was not home for the first confrontation, my brother and mother literally had to pry them apart and separate them until i arrived at home.

We observed their behavior for a couple hours and gave it one more chance. All was well for about 30 minutes, then out of the blue the obvious the signs appeared. Stiff necks, strong stares into the eyes, straight tails and a pause in movement from both dogs. Before i could create a distraction i was prying one off.

I proceeded to lead the dog into another room, sprinkle some water on the dog, followed by stern "no"s.

enough chitchat, Is there anyone out there that i can chat with that has any words of advice or better yet, professional experience.

I am well aware dogs fight for rank, but i do not want to find out the hard way that this was not a "fight for rank"

thanks!
 
I'm no expert...but I do know dogs and pets in general are very good at sensing human emotions. Anything of particular interest or negativity going on in your family right now? They may be picking up on it...
 
I'm no expert...but I do know dogs and pets in general are very good at sensing human emotions. Anything of particular interest or negativity going on in your family right now? They may be picking up on it...

In the past, yes. Recently it's been smooth sailing (past month).

Right now the larger of the two (80lb of dog) is in the basement, the smaller one (70lb of dog) is upstairs in the house. Both have muzzles for the first time and slowly getting accustomed to them. Also, both are not altered.
 
you really need to find out the root cause mate.
i have german sheperds (2), always have.
i also used to do german sheperd rescue transport in my big trk (i removed the passenger seat making room for dogs. lol).
i have had dogs that would get aggressive because of food, attention they got, toys, everything.
if it is purely domination related, then there is no easy cure as far as i know.
was it feeding time? nap time? so on...
whatever triggered it off when you werent home is the key here IMO.
obviously keep them seperated until its resolved. can you tell which one started the fight?
while you are resolving the cause, i would go for a soft muzzle to be safe.
you can also try swapping the muzzle between the two of them to see which is the aggressor.
just my thoughts and experiences.
good luck and keep us posted

martin
 
I was told by a breader that two females is a bad mix. I'm not sure if that's true if they are fixed but it was explained to me that they may compete. Maybe that's what's happening with your dogs. edit: just read that your dogs are not altered, maybe it's the situation I discribed above.
 
you might want to consider getting them "altered"
 
What do you expect from two bitches in the same house?

Seriously, most fights are contests for dominance. Usually the dogs work it out without seriously injuring each other. Other times, if you have two dogs with dominant personalities, they will never work it out. If it seems like they aren't going to work it out, you will have no choice but to find another home for one of them.
 
Last edited:
you might want to consider getting them "altered"

Final1.jpg


yep, it's going to be one of the first things I'm going to try. After spending time with each, Maggie (right) has punctures going deep into the scruff and Sasha (left) has a torn ear. Both have been patched up and are now sleeping, one in the basement and the other on my rug in my room.

I'm having a cup of coffee with a local dog behaviorist to talk about my options.

ugh, owell
 
A loosely rolled up newspaper, held together with a little duct tape, usually works wonders. It makes noise, is fairly safe so you don't really injure the dog, you can wade in there and really whack them good. The nose is usually a good spot to aim for.
If you have a plastic vacuum cleaner tube (or a three foot Bamboo stick), they also work well for breaking up a fight. But you have to be more careful of injuring the dog. Dogs are tough and have a high pain threshold, it's possible to damage them before they feel much pain.
I use a muzzle for a time out type thing. I leave it on for longer and longer periods, until the dogs get the idea.
Dogs really only understand one thing, the alpha. You may have to do some serious butt kicking to get them to stop. You doing a controlled butt kicking is better than one of the dogs loosing an eye or something. When I say butt kicking, I mean figuratively, hips is one spot you want to avoid when whacking your dog.
The fights are usually because of food, a favorite toy or even a favorite spot.
But the fights can be because of it's getting on towards coming in heat time. In the wild, most dogs only have one litter per pack, the alpha female. One of my female Sheppards went over two fences and killed the litter of a neighbors dog.
Sometimes it won't stop until you have a decisive winner. Sometimes it never stops, but usually diminishes in intensity and frequency over time.
I took two fighters, put muzzles on them and tied them together with a one foot rope and left them tied together for most of a day, twice. They caught on and we had peace for a couple of months until that lesson wore off.
Keep your hands out of there, last year I got a half a dozen stitches trying to grab a collar and pull two of mine apart.
Most every time my females come in heat, my two males go to war for a couple of weeks.
We hunt with packs half a dozen times a year, 15-30 dogs. Your dogs have to be afraid/respectful enough of you, to curb there natural aggression or catastrophe breaks out.
 
Last edited:
.... one in the basement and the other on my rug in my room.

IMO I would say that this isn't a good idea either. By putting one dog in the basement and one in YOUR room you have forced the status of the dogs. You should keep them both in the basement, with the muzzle on if necessary.

Are you the oldest male in the house, or basically are you the Alpha? Do you have a wife/GF living with you? The dogs are positioning themselves to look the most appealing to the Alpha. You might just want to go ahead and set an appointment to get those girls fixed.
 
at that age, they are probably fighting for alpha female status. it will stop after a while on it's own. oh by putting one in your room you are appointing the alpha, which is a short fix but long term you want them both to be omega females. I'd go with the muzzles after each fight so they learn not to fight.
 
at that age, they are probably fighting for alpha female status. it will stop after a while on it's own. oh by putting one in your room you are appointing the alpha, which is a short fix but long term you want them both to be omega females. I'd go with the muzzles after each fight so they learn not to fight.

I kind of agree with ehall, sometimes it's better just to let them sort it out. BUT. if it's not just you and the dogs, if you have the wife and kids and you let a strong willed dog have it's way, the order of things can get screwed up, it can get worse fast. The whole process can have a domino affect.
Just a thought, you may want to position your wife as the Alpha female, who in my experience is actually the leader of the pack, no matter what anybody says. You'll rarely see a male seriously bite a female, the converse isn't true, you figure it out. Have her pass out the food and give the treats.
My dogs, I'd come down fast and strong. I'd kick both there butts and then sit on them. Laying down on a dog and pinning them, is a really good way of demonstrating dominance. If you have to, put muzzle on them and do it gradually.
I'm usually pretty careful about spreading the affection and treats around evenly, but am always aware of who gets petted or feed first.
If they so much as growl at each other, I'd be right in the middle of it kicking butt. During mating season, I keep a rolled up newspaper at arms reach and a three foot plastic tube close by (in case the newspaper doesn't work).
Dogs have no real time sense. So training may have to be exaggerated and/or repeated often. Most dogs don't hold much of a grudge, after you get through kicking there butts and they have calmed down some, forgive them. Forgiving them is an important part of the process.
You have to learn to watch the signs, if two dogs are looking at each other and one yawns, what the dog is often saying is, I can open my jaws wider than you can (it has nothing to do with being tired or bored). I pin them with my eyes, if they don't look away I stand up (dominant posture), body language.
A lot of people may disagree with my methods, but after kicking a dogs butt a few times, all I have to do is swat a newspaper on my thigh to get them to stop, for pretty much the rest of their lives. Not something you want to do on a daily basis (you don't want to break them, you want to bend them), but often enough to remind them.
In general, if you back down your screwed.
 
Last edited:
owners that abuse there dogs with any physical contact are already doing everything wrong, FEAR is not a training tool
as a certified dog trainer i would recommend you "alter" both of them, it will also save you from future vet bills and no chance of ovarian cancer
i would also recommend a training course (not at petsmart that place is a joke)
 
i would recommend getting them fixed.

we've had multiple queensland heelers in our house at once...they never fought, but they were all fixed.

good luck
 
owners that abuse there dogs with any physical contact are already doing everything wrong, FEAR is not a training tool
as a certified dog trainer i would recommend you "alter" both of them, it will also save you from future vet bills and no chance of ovarian cancer
i would also recommend a training course (not at petsmart that place is a joke)

Dogs have been training dogs a whole lot longer than humans have. They sure as heck don't use kindness, exclusively.
Maybe other methods will work if you mentally abuse a dog into thinking it is human.
There is a difference between fear and dominance (though it does get a little blurry at times). Training can break down very quickly, conditioning tends to last longer.
Ask the lady at the local rescue center, who lost the use of her right arm. Ask my teacher who lost a finger. If you have the luxury of endless time to negotiate, kindness is always the first choice.
Sometimes you have to be pro active instead of reactive.
"Any physical contact" isn't abuse. I distrust anybody who makes blanket statements about dogs. There is no 100%, there are no one size fits all solutions.
If my alpha bitch bites her daughter on the butt for barking during stalking, is that abuse? That's the way dogs do it and have been doing it way before there were any humans.
We regularly have hunts with thirty dogs, without any fights. These dogs barley know each other, if at all.
I use a sharp voice and a pointed finger, some handlers use a foot long twig. The same way it's been done for the last 1000 years or longer.
Time usually proves new age solutions to be mostly myth or wishful thinking.
 
Last edited:
I met up with the behaviorist this morning. The majority of the talk was about us, the family, and how we operate every day. Then we headed to my house to meet the trouble makers. The larger of the two (Maggie) was upstairs with us when he showed up and as usual stood between the family and the "intruder" while she let out a couple barks. Once Maggie calmed herself (usually takes about a minute) the behaviorist attempted to do some obedience exercises, which failed. Then we copied the exercises and succeeded in most commands.

We talked for about another hour. Their suggestions were the following:

-remove food bowls at all times and try either the morning and night feeding times or just the night feeding.
-consider spaying both dogs
-torso body harness on both dogs
-rotate the dogs in separation for now
-take all toys away
-wash all beds in the same washer twice, add salt into the mixture on 2nd wash. then place beds in different spots
-fill atomizer with salt, liquid cayenne and water. keep at arms reach.
-when signs of defense/aggression are displayed pull the dog away and pin it to the ground with body weight. keep it subdued for at least a minute.
-and if possibly keep stungun handy at all times. apparently dogs cannot stand the frequencies given off by a stungun being powered on. not to directly use on the dogs.
-do not be afraid to get physical with dogs, stay away from the teeth at all costs

He will be stopping by again on sunday if we do not call him sooner.



EDIT: i forgot to add his possible roots of the problem.

One or both may be going into heat, one may be trying to challenge the dominant, they may have picked favorites among the family and are defending their choices
 
Last edited:
let's see the two bitches in question are beating the shit out of each other but onoz don't touch them because that would be cruel ...

human owners must have monopoly on violence among the animals, sorry that's the way it goes
 
Sounds like good advice to me, I'd forgotten about the body harness. I have one for all of my dogs, gives you someplace to grab that isn't as close to the teeth. Though the harness can cause ingrown hair problems over time.
Two of my dogs just went off a couple of minutes ago, my son laid down one dish of leftovers for three dogs (dumb). I just waved a newspaper in front of there eyes and that was the end of that. I didn't even have to touch anybody.
 
What's with the salty beds???

.
 
What's with the salty beds???

.
I'm guessing it deadens the MINE smell some and may help reduce the MINE reflex some.
He's lucky it isn't two males, they'd likely take turns peeing on each others bed.

Keeping them inside where it's warm can make them come into heat earlier in the year and/or screw up the hormones some. Conflicting signals, the internal clock says mate in early spring, the inside temperature says it is spring. They can partially come into heat and then stop several times before they truly come into heat.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top