another lifter thread

Yes! I've tried every mechanic in a can option! Pulled the valve cover to inspect what I suspected was lifter tick. Indeed it is. Cylinders #1-3, #6 intake/exhaust pushrods are spinning nice and smooth. #4 exhaust pushrod just moves up and down, and it's pretty clear the tick is at this one. #5 exhaust seems to be occasionally stuck as well, seems there is a slight bend in the pushrod too. I've read a million posts on putting new lifters on an old cam, and this is what I will be doing. Haven't pulled the head, so I can only cross my fingers and hope the cam is good at this point. Lets just say that yes, cam is good, and replace all lifters. Since I'm replacing one pushrod.....should I just replace the rest, and rocker arm/rocker arm assemblies as well?


2002 TJ 4.0

Pushrods can easily be checked, but then again they are cheap.

You'll only know about the cam once you get the lifters out.

It is my current understanding that there should not be enough slop for the rockers to be loose, not sure about the rods.

That said mine are worn enough they have a ton of slop from 290,000 miles of wear, unless they are loaded and opening a valve.

If it was me, I would pull the rockers and rods and spark plugs and add some MMO overnight to the top side of the lifters to soak. Do the same to piston tops while your at it (it cleans the pistons rings).

Test the rods on a flat plate and roll them to see if they are bent, or just replace them. Then crank the engine a bit, and then add more MMO to the top of the lifters overnight. Then crank it again and then put it all back together with the bad rods replaced and see she what she does.

You need to pull the head to replace the lifters on the 4.0 six banger.

I replaced the head in my 2000 XJ years back at 110Kmi, just turned 230, runs like champ... so this is unfortunate familiar territory.

TJ has 160K on it. I've been living with it for the last 25K miles. It would occasionally tick, and after a long highway drive, the valve-train is nearly silent. It just doesnt seem right, seems to be getting worse. There is no slop in the rockers/rods. I've done the remove two quarts oil and add ATF, I've added MMO at nearly every oil change, added seafoam to crankcase etc...its all been done. I change oil every 1000-1500mi as well (RP). Idles fine, doesn't miss, and at WOT on the highway, it pulls superstrong. After running it with the valve cover off, it's clear cyls 1-3 rods are smoothly operating whereas 4-6 seem to be not as smooth. My inclination is a bad lifter or two or more. Obviously, if the cam is shot, new lifters for sure. I just assume, if you're putting new lifters in, you gotta do rods, rockers/rocker assembly....?

I'll give this trick a shot, really don't want to pull the head.

Have you tried running it at 4500 rpm (or 3500-4500....) when it is making the noise to un-stick the lifter(s) ????

Try 3500 rpm for say 60 seconds, or 4500 rpm for about 10 seconds at a time. Works like a champ for many of us. A trick 5-90 taught me, seems to force the lifters to start rotating again when they get stuck....

Works great on mine. Goes from sounding like a diesel to purring like a sewing machine when it sticks on cold morning starts.

Mine has had sticking lifters/very noisy on cold morning starts for 12 years and 70,000 miles. Now at 290,000 miles.

Did something very similar to that when I ran a few quarts of ATF in it...in the driveway. At 3500 to 4500rpm, its smooth as silk. The ticking doesn't happen on initial start-up (cold), once the oil starts to warm, it comes and goes, a little throttle usually clears it. And like I said, after about a 15-20 minute highway drive, it's non-existent. My airplane mechanics tell me "it's a jeep, live with it until it breaks", then they said "if you're going that deep in it, mind as well just do a full rebuild".......not doing that for some lifter tick. If the dumping MMO and soaking directly on lifters doesn't work, I'll just replace the lifters, if it blows up, I'll rebuild it. The previous owner let it sit outside for nearly 18months without running it. I bought it, jumped it, and drove off, might have had something to do with it.

What oil were they using?

I use ultra cheap Walmart 20-50W dyno-oil (live in the deep hot south). Some people have change the oil brand and gotten rid of ticks. Maybe the RP and MMO is too thin for an old worn 4.0?

GreenXJ2K said:

Did something very similar to that when I ran a few quarts of ATF in it...in the driveway. At 3500 to 4500rpm, its smooth as silk. The ticking doesn't happen on initial start-up (cold), once the oil starts to warm, it comes and goes, a little throttle usually clears it. And like I said, after about a 15-20 minute highway drive, it's non-existent. My airplane mechanics tell me "it's a jeep, live with it until it breaks", then they said "if you're going that deep in it, mind as well just do a full rebuild".......not doing that for some lifter tick. If the dumping MMO and soaking directly on lifters doesn't work, I'll just replace the lifters, if it blows up, I'll rebuild it. The previous owner let it sit outside for nearly 18months without running it. I bought it, jumped it, and drove off, might have had something to do with it.

Click to expand...

Please remember, If your camshaft was shot, meaning you had a lobe or two that are wiped, or flattened, you would know about it. That engine would be running horribly. If it runs ok, but just has that loud ticking sound and you suspect the lifters, by all means, investigate. A 'ticking' lifter does NOT mean the lifter is bad. It is simply not moving freely within its bore due to carbon buildup (usually). You can gain access to the lifters and work them out as best you can without damaging anything, which I know, is sometimes easier said than done. DO NOT, DO NOT, mix up the lifters, as they must go back into the exact same positions they came out from. After the lifters are out, clean off the carbon 'Ridge' that is present in the lifter bore(s) either by a soft sandpaper or honing stone, again-SOFT. Dont go overboard and use a really course paper or stones. Then, take your lifters, and on a clean work table, disassemble them and clean them very well inside and out with a strong solvent and soft paper. Rinse off all of the solvent. Reassemble the lifters using generous amounts of clean engine oil inside and out, especially inside. Reinstall the lifters back into their same spots. Use new pushrods, they are cheap, dont even bother looking at them, just confirm the length of the new ones before installing them, dont just drop them in. Put everything back together. Change the engine oil and use a new filter. Start the engine. The oil pressure will take longer than usual to build up, This is normal. You may hear LOTS of clicking at first, and this is because your lifters havent built oil pressure yet. After a few seconds, the clicking should go away as the inside of the lifter pressurizes with oil and takes up all of the valvetrain slack-This is why they are called Hydraulic Lifters, no adjustments needed.
If you want to speed up the pressure build-up inside the lifters, then after you reassemble the lifters, put one lifter at a time into an old cup filled with clean engine oil. Make sure the lifter is plunger side up, and is FULLY submerged. Use an old pushrod to push down on the plunger many times. This is called 'Pumping Up' your lifters, and is the proper way of priming a lifter before install. OR, you can simply buy a new set of lifters. If you do this, they obviously dont have to be disassembled, but should still be pumped up before installing. If the lifter set is new, do not worry about which lifter bore you put them in, it doesnt matter and will not hurt the camshaft. The new lifters and camshaft lobes will wear themselves in together over time. That step is only true if you re-use the lifters. All of these steps have been used by myself and many other veteran engine builders for years without failure, we just go with what has worked for a long time.

Awesome! Haven't found much info on disassembling the lifters, obviously would love that option, as the lifter faces are already worn to the cam. I have a suspicion this may be my issue, due to the ever so slightly bent pushrod. Looks pretty simple enough, just remove the clip on top and everything comes out I'm assuming...? Slightly concerned with damaging them during disassembly. I will definitely try this though. Another concern I have is, when I do pull the lifters, do you have enough of a "line of sight" to get a good look at the cam? I know I'll at least be able to do the fingernail test. Pulling the cam would obviously be the best course of action to do a proper inspection (trying to avoid that), but would simply looking at a top down angle through the lifter bores while giving a few turns of the crank show any obvious signs of the cam health?

With one of these you could see a nats hair on the cam shaft

https://www.google.com/search?q=usb...la:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&channel=sb

I just got one delivered for about $13 for my android cell phone with a 15 cord.

As others have pointed out unless its collapsed its not bad. most likely its varnished up and just needs to be cleaned. before you go through a physical teardown I would try the old rev in park trick to see if you can break them loose. I believe 5-90 gets original credit. After warm up in park rev the engine to 3500 for about 2 minutes or 15-20 seconds at 4k. The rpms create an oscillation that essentially vibrates the lifter into rotating. Kinda like sonic cleaning your jewelry. It may take doing it several times over a few days to break them loose depending on buildup.

While push rods are cheap to replace, I would be more concerned about how it was bent in the first place, if indeed it is bent. If you end up pulling them I would soak them overnight to clean out the passages. If you're lifters are varnished up you can bet your rods are in similar shape.

Just like a collapsed lifter, if you wiped a lope you would sure as hell know it so based on your symptoms I'd find it a long shot that the cam is somehow damaged.

Lots of good you tube videos out on this, inspection and cleaning lifters... now.

https://www.google.com/search?q=cle...la:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&channel=sb

GreenXJ2K said:

Awesome! Haven't found much info on disassembling the lifters, obviously would love that option, as the lifter faces are already worn to the cam. I have a suspicion this may be my issue, due to the ever so slightly bent pushrod. Looks pretty simple enough, just remove the clip on top and everything comes out I'm assuming...? Slightly concerned with damaging them during disassembly. I will definitely try this though. Another concern I have is, when I do pull the lifters, do you have enough of a "line of sight" to get a good look at the cam? I know I'll at least be able to do the fingernail test. Pulling the cam would obviously be the best course of action to do a proper inspection (trying to avoid that), but would simply looking at a top down angle through the lifter bores while giving a few turns of the crank show any obvious signs of the cam health?

Click to expand...

I disagree on comment there. I use to sell and service ultrasonic cleaners.

The high rpm trick is not IMHO an ultrasonic thing, I think the higher oil flow rate and more rapid action of the cam lobes on the lifter force it to un-stick and naturally rotate like they are designed to. Something about the bottom of the lifter surface and cam lobe surface is built to force the lifters to rotate so they do not wear a slot in the bottom of the lifter. I think it may be the higher momentum (Force) of a faster rotating cam lobe that knocks the lifters loose. That would be my guess.

And yes, 5-90 was the one that taught us (and me) this trick.

If you think about the higher the velocity of the cam lobe rotation, the more force as a function of time it throw at the bottom of the lifter, pushing it wee bit higher up. Also just dawned on me that a lifter could be stuck and not sliding all the way back down to the bottom was the cam lobe recedes. Thus the lobe would hit and make a knocking sound on the next contact with the cam lobe. The problem once again would be carbon and varnish in the cylinder wall that guides the lifter.

I watched a video last week of a guy that had a jeep 4.0 lifter issue, and it was stuck, and hard to remove with a magnetic pick up tool. He replaced the lifter even though it look good. But he had a real hard time getting the new lifter back in, making me thing the cyl wall was dirty with carbon and varnish!!!!!

I am not a pro at lifters yet, but I think I am figuring out the rest of the story finally.

Tampa_XJ said:

As others have pointed out unless its collapsed its not bad. most likely its varnished up and just needs to be cleaned. before you go through a physical teardown I would try the old rev in park trick to see if you can break them loose. I believe 5-90 gets original credit. After warm up in park rev the engine to 3500 for about 2 minutes or 15-20 seconds at 4k. The rpms create an oscillation that essentially vibrates the lifter into rotating. Kinda like sonic cleaning your jewelry. It may take doing it several times over a few days to break them loose depending on buildup.

While push rods are cheap to replace, I would be more concerned about how it was bent in the first place, if indeed it is bent. If you end up pulling them I would soak them overnight to clean out the passages. If you're lifters are varnished up you can bet your rods are in similar shape.

Just like a collapsed lifter, if you wiped a lope you would sure as hell know it so based on your symptoms I'd find it a long shot that the cam is somehow damaged.

Click to expand...

So you guys are saying that bouncing off my rev limiter whenever I'm snow wheeling is a good thing. Got it!

The tick finally set me off and I tore into the TJ. Pulled the lifters and cam...both are in near perfect condition after 160K miles. Lobes on the cam are almost as new, and the lifters (externally anyway) show virtually no sign of wear. Brought the head to the machine shop to get magnafluxed, shave a bit if needed (.002 feeler guage didn't go through on the straight edge flatness test). Guy tells me, for 150, he'll clean it, shave about a .001 off the mating surface, but didn't want to hot tank, magnaflux or replace the valve seals or do any valve work on it. For about 375-400 he'll do a full rebuild. He said if it wasn't burning oil, its not worth it....it wasn't burning oil. It's a 2002 btw, head has the TUPY markings from factory, so he advised against magnafluxing.

So now I'm torn between my poor man refurb head and the ProMaxx CHR640N head with new valves/springs. I'm putting in a new Melling 1377 cam, Johnson/Hylift A-2011 lifters, rockers/pivots, pushrods,timing chain/sprocket, hesco head bolts, harmonic balancer etc. I figure if I'm in this deep, mind as well go all new stuff, don't want to have to redo this anytime soon.

I had the head off mine for something else, found a couple of bad lifters, replaced them all. They are cheap.



Pushrods were fine or I would have replaced them too.

I think I finally got ride of my cold morning start up lifter tick, after 13 years and 70,000 miles of battling it with the high aggressive rev method, on my 87 beast (290,000 miles on it total).

Last thing I did to solve it was pulling the valve cover, and spray soaking the valve train and lifters with MMO, and letting her sit over night.

too late for all that, i'm knee deep in it. I will be using the following for breaking it in:

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/luc-10063-1
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/luc-10630-1


Now...cam/lifter assembly lube...there is a dizzying array of products out there...

redline
black moly stuff
white moly stuff
stuff that comes with the cam

don't even know where to start here. I know that I want something that will stay there for a bit for the initial startup.....whats the best stuff?


Thanks,
John

It should come with the cam! Have you bought a head yet?

i've just read lots of complaints about the stuff that usually comes with the cam. I haven't heard from my machine shop yet about my current head. I'm just weary of them having to potentially shave it. Figured a fresh head with new valves/springs would prevent me from losing sleep.