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Lifter tick noise, and lifter science

Ecomike

NAXJA# 2091
NAXJA Member
Location
MilkyWay Galaxy
Found a cool video on cleaning lifters to reuse them!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ySf0r8GGMOY

To solve lifter tick. Not the 4.0 lifter in the video, but ours should be similar.

Hydraulic_Lifter_274.jpg
 
Just like so many XJ 4.0 engine jeep owners I have been dealing with lifter tick for 10 years and 70,000 miles on my 87 Wagoneer XJ. Thought I would share some cool info I found today.

I know a whole lot about check valves and pumps from my earlier years servicing paint pumps, know in industry as positive displacement pumps. They all use check valves. Any trash in the seat and they stop pumping. In our case the lifter can leak and partially collapse? Cleaning the lifter body and especially the check valves makes a lot of sense seeing the drawing and video. This explains why severe cleaning with additives or transmission fluid in the oil, or a solvent additive works in many cases. But some engines have so much varnish in them, it needs to be done slowly over time, or the head pulled and lifters cleaned.

I am tempted to pull a valve cover and spray the lifters with PB Blaster several times (or a trigger sprayer with a god mix of cleaning-n-oil ingredients), and crank the engine (do not start) to work it in and soak it over night.
 
I had lifter tick in my heep when I got it. I used the 'rev the shit out of it' method. And it worked. Have also used 'NorCalChris' ' s method and worked.
This sounds like a good idea though.
 
"NorCalChris" ????? Method?
 
PB blaster is a solvent and will degrade oil severely. Do not use it in an engine. Use ATF just before each oil change. Switching to mobil1 5w30 has fixed several engines for me.
 
Thanks but I don't see a problem with it (1). I plan (as should others) to use the MMO after the PB blaster and to crank the engine (spark disabled) later to complete the cleaning and lubing process. The whole point of PB blaster is is dissolve the varnish, which takes a solvent or something closer to a solvent or blend, no oil will do that, not even Mobil-1.

(1) https://www.lawsonproducts.com/pdfs/msds/42335_SDS_EN.pdf

Is the SDS for PB BLaster, which shows it has plenty of lube oil base as well as some solvent.



t
PB blaster is a solvent and will degrade oil severely. Do not use it in an engine. Use ATF just before each oil change. Switching to mobil1 5w30 has fixed several engines for me.
 
Go ahead but make sure it's all out as it won't properly lube a bearing and WILL thin the oil. You could just pour lacquer thinner in there, it will definitely destroy your bearings but hey it will clean that varnish out.
 
I do understand your concern, and appreciate your concern, and I am usually the one that takes the cautious route, but in this case I happen to be a chemical engineer and snake oil formulation chemist with 45 years of experience in this area. I can assure you that there is about 70% thin oil in the PB blaster formula and about 1% of a special penetrating surfactant that is oil/organic soluble and about 20-30% volatile (evaporates) solvent like naphthalene-aromatic blend that dissolves the varnish into solution.

For comparison, the widely used MMO additive that has been used and the praises sung and worshiped for >50 years that I know of, is also about 30% solvent per this SDS data sheet.

https://www.turtlewax.com/docs/default-source/2015-msds/mm12r-50094-0315-sds

And everyone adds a quart of it to their oil, including me for decades for cleaning gunked up engines while they run for 3000 miles.....

And the PB Blaster shows 70-90% petroleum distillates (light oils).

Have you ever run a lubrication test with PB Blaster? Have you ever sprayed some into a cap and let it sit for hours?

I am not suggesting washing the lifters to where they are dry with pure solvent, but simply spraying some of the MMO or PB Blaster on the top side where it can soak down around the edges and dissolve varnish that is gumming up the motion (rotation and lifting) of the lifters on the outside. And then spraying some oil in the same spot and cranking the engine slowly first (no spark) to clean the garbage off them in place, before running the engine again.

In my case I run 20W50 with a quart of Lucas in the one I plan to use this on, so a little thinning should not be an issue, LOL.

Go ahead but make sure it's all out as it won't properly lube a bearing and WILL thin the oil. You could just pour lacquer thinner in there, it will definitely destroy your bearings but hey it will clean that varnish out.
 
BTW, Varnish on a bearing surface is also a poor lubricant. :D
 
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Old times actually use to use some Laquer thinner added to the oil to clean up nasty engines and to revitalize oil crank shaft seals.
 
What a Joke,Pore a quart of cheap transmission fluid in the oil before oil change and let ideal or drive for 30 minutes. Drain,fill with new oil and your done.Now how much do you get for posting this cleaner crap????????
 
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IMHO transmission fluid works no better, and maybe not as good as MMO. Yes it works, it is old school, nothing new, but many have not been able to get rid of 4.0 lifter tick with the typical add a quart of this to the oil method you two have suggested. That is why I came up with the idea of direct 100% treatment of the top of the lifters under the valve cover.

I have had the best luck with what was called in an earlier post the 'rev the shit out of it' method, as have others here including 5-90 (who taught it to me years ago) and Cruiser54.

I got the idea from successfully using a GM TSB for solving carbon fouled piston rings (the oil control ring to be exact) that make the Saturn's eat oil as fast 1 quart/200 miles on engines with only 30,000 miles....long story....

And they use a GM product much like MMO and add a teaspoon of the oil to the top side of the piston through the spark plug holes. What I am suggesting is no different and the outside of the lifters are just smaller pistons in a smaller cylinder.....

I did the GM procedure 4 weeks ago using what I had handy, MMO (as others with the same Saturn carbon fouled oil control pistons had also used) and my Saturn oil consumption dropped 70% !!!!!!!!;)
 
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Dude ... there was nothing advertised in that video. It was a how-to on removing the lifters, cleaning them with parts cleaner and reassembling them. Nothing was advertised, and of course EcoMike isn't making money on that video. Turn down the volume and calm down. We're just talking here and thinking out loud.

I think EcoMike's idea of soaking with PB sounds safe enough to me, because you're just talking about cranking the motor without starting it. Then drain it, and fill with fresh oil before starting the motor. I would probably pour some oil down the pushrod tubes to help "flush" out the PB.

But I also think this would be my last resort. I would try the M1 5W-30 first. If that didn't work, then the ATF. If that didn't work I'd run the Marvel Mystery oil for 3k miles.

Ultimately, the best approach is to pull the head, fish out the lifters with a magnet, and clean them like in the video. My '91 motor has about 67k miles since rebuild, and I'll probably pull the head at 100k for a valve job. Cleaning the lifters at that time would be a good idea.

EcoMike ... if you try the PB, please let us know how it goes. Thanks for thinking outside the box.
 
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What did i miss here?????? I would probably pour some oil down the pushrods tubes to help "flush" out the PB. I'm Talking running engine and your talking poring oil down push rods.DA DA DA I want to see THIS
 
What did i miss here??????

Re-read EcoMike's 2nd post. He was talking about removing the valve cover, removing the push rods, and spraying PB down the openings to the lifters, then cranking the motor to work it into the lifters, then letting it soak overnight. Then draining the oil. All I'm saying is pour some oil down those same openings to help get the PB out of the lifters, before reinstalling the push rods and the cover. Make sense?

No need to get so excited ... we're just having a little conversation here.
 
I just read a post on another site where a guy sprayed a cleaner down the lifter pushrod hole itself. I was only thinking and talking about spraying about teaspoon or less on the outside top of each lifter and on the block wall the lifter rides on, at the most 1 teaspoon to clean the outer wall of the lifter and the block wall, the surface than when dirty would stop them from rotating. Then let it soak over night like the GM TSP for the pistons on the saturns. Then crank it (no start) some then spray some oil on top in the same places and then fire the engine up.

That would do nothing for the check valve inside the lifters if they are gummed up but that other guys (other site post I read) spraying cleaner down the push rod guts through the hole might help..... But I suspect the check valve in the lifter seals the top side of the lifter and the flow might just go outside of the lifter anyway?

I don't see it cleaning the inside of the lifter or check valve inside, but I need to look at the drawings on the lifter internals again first. I think cleaning a dirty stuck check valve may take running the engine like we all try already, or maybe removing the push rod and filling the top of the lifter directly with a 1/2 teaspoon of cleaner?
 
What did i miss here?????? I would probably pour some oil down the pushrods tubes to help "flush" out the PB. I'm Talking running engine and your talking poring oil down push rods.DA DA DA I want to see THIS

The PB would not be in the push rods to begin with, so no need to flush it out.
 
Dude ... there was nothing advertised in that video. It was a how-to on removing the lifters, cleaning them with parts cleaner and reassembling them. Nothing was advertised, and of course EcoMike isn't making money on that video. Turn down the volume and calm down. We're just talking here and thinking out loud.

I think EcoMike's idea of soaking with PB sounds safe enough to me, because you're just talking about cranking the motor without starting it. Then drain it, and fill with fresh oil before starting the motor. I would probably pour some oil down the pushrod tubes to help "flush" out the PB.

But I also think this would be my last resort. I would try the M1 5W-30 first. If that didn't work, then the ATF. If that didn't work I'd run the Marvel Mystery oil for 3k miles.

Ultimately, the best approach is to pull the head, fish out the lifters with a magnet, and clean them like in the video. My '91 motor has about 67k miles since rebuild, and I'll probably pull the head at 100k for a valve job. Cleaning the lifters at that time would be a good idea.

EcoMike ... if you try the PB, please let us know how it goes. Thanks for thinking outside the box.

Thanks Montanaman, as always for over 10 years here now on NAXJA, I always report my results, good and bad.

One problem with pulling the lifters, is what if the varnish is all over the engine and just migrates to the new lifters. That is one of the reasons many of us use MMO, as it seems to be a safer, slow clean up process, where as more aggressive cleaners, like lacquer thinner can cut loose enough crap to plug an oil filter and starve an engine in minutes and kill it before you know what happened. Synthetic oil on an old engine like mine, 290,000 miles is usually a death sentence to the seals and sometimes to the engine if it has been abused and is full of crude from 30 years of infrequent oil changes.

Lots of options for folks to try for sure. But I was so damned impressed last month with the piston ring clean up on the Saturn It got me to thinking. I had tried MMO in the oil, a full quart several times on the saturn, and no joy. Put the top side soak was amazing!!!! Thus the idea of trying it on lifters top side.

But it is the outside of the lifter and the block wall the outside rides I was targeting at first. The I decided to revisit the guts of lifters, when I posted the image-drawing and the video.

I can see more than one cause for lifter tick, 5-90's story of their no longer rotating, and the trash in the check valve making the lifter partially collapse from the video???
 
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