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Need Pwr Steering work done? This guy is great!

YELLAHEEP

NAXJA Forum User
I just had the BEST experience with a specialty rebuilder and wanted to let all my Colorado friends know to do business with this guy.

History:
I needed to replace my original pwr steering box and after checking other shops, I was referred to Colorado Automotive Rebuild Specialists (C.A.R.S.) in Denver. I was looking for a more powerful steering box and was thinking of having a J20 box built. When I spoke to this guy, he suggested I use a '99 Durango box - it has the large piston/cylinder, with the exact same input shaft, pitman shaft and fittings as the XJ box. So, he sent me home with a nicely rebuilt Durango box for $175.

Install:
The box went in beautifully. I had to make some 3/4" spacers to mount between the box and frame to accomodate the larger size of the cylinder. At the same time as the box swap, I decided to "upgrade" to full size Waggy steering (over the knuckle, TRE holes reamed, etc...) Well, after everything was in place, the Waggy steering parts turned out to be a bad idea. Nothing fit right, the parts rotated when turning - junk. On top of that, my turning radius sucked. I figured it was because of the junk steering parts and parked my rig for a few months.

The fix:
I junked the Waggy steering and purchased the Canyon Climber steering setup from Phat Jeeps. Excellent pieces, nice machine work, tight steering. But, I still had the steering radius problem - so bad that I couldn't negotiate most turns through the bank and fast food drive-thrus without a J-turn. So, I called up Humberto Viramontes at C.A.R.S. After hearing my story of woe, he said to bring it down for him to look at. (I've had the steering box now for 11 months - warranteed for 12 and have barely used it). Humberto was a bit perplexed himself because he believed that the Durango box and the XJ box were set up exactly the same except for the larger internal parts. He asked that I remove the box and bring it back for him to compare to an XJ box and look inside them side by side.

Today, I brought him the box, fully expecting to have to leave it with him for a few days - being that this was a custom application and certainly not his fault. I certainly didn't expect what he did for me. Humberto stopped what he was doing and tore down my Durango box right then and there, he brought out an XJ box and did the same. He quickly discovered that there were spacers in the Durango box on each end of the cylinder that limited the travel of the piston - thus, keeping it from turning the pitman arm to the same degree as the XJ box. He then completely rebuilt my Durango box with new internal pieces, removed the spacers and put it back together - all in 20 minutes time! And no additional charge!

I put the Durango box back in this evening and I've got my steering back!

I highly recommend that you guys check out C.A.R.S. for all your steering needs. He knows his stuff! Be forewarned, he speaks just enough english to get by, and his shop is VERY humble (messy and a bit disorganized) but he's simply the nicest guy I've ever met in the rebuild industry.

Additionally, he's already done several modifications to steering boxes for 'wheelers that want to add hydraulic assist rams to their set-ups. He can get you all the info you need to build the system and drill & tap your box for the fittings.

Colorado Automotive Rebuild Specialists (C.A.R.S.)
Humberto Viramontes
1110 Yuma St.
Denver, Co. 80204
303-292-6324
 
YELLAHEEP said:
He then completely rebuilt my Durango box with new internal pieces, removed the spacers and put it back together - all in 20 minutes time! And no additional charge

The guy could have just used a correct pittman arm matched for your steering knuckles instead of modifying the box :roll:

That would have been the easier fix.
 
A longer pitman arm on the box would have added considerably more strain where increasing the range, doesn't. Just a thought.
 
Got any pics of the phat jeeps steering and what did it set you back. I saw it on the website and was interested in it. Had not heard any real world experiences though.
 
old_man said:
A longer pitman arm on the box would have added considerably more strain where increasing the range, doesn't. Just a thought.
plus, I haven't been able to find a longer pitman arm with roughly the same amount of drop. A Waggy drop pitman is close, but still not as much drop as an XJ arm, and it's not cheap.

I heard of the Durango box upgrade, so I got excited when I saw a Durango at Pick N Pull. It was a 1st generation body style (i dont' know what year) and it had Rack and Pinion steering ?? does anyone know the year it switched?
 
Some answers / responses:

Ashman:
I hear ya about the longer pitman arm - believe me, I looked into it. Like Old Man said, the longer arm would certainly increase the strain on the box and basically, would have defeated going thru all this for the more powerful steering box. Also, having the pitman longer puts the drag link at a closer angle to the front axle and could cause binding and or contact when flexed.

Brent88xj:
I can't post pics - but my Canyon Climber system doesn't look any different than the pics on Phat Jeeps website. I highly recommend this setup! It has excelent road manners and works very well with flexy suspensions without binding. Another member Joey Barone has this setup and he likes it as well. I don't know of any disadvantages to this system. Understand that this is a bolt up system and that's where some critics find fault - particularly with the brackets at the knuckles. I torqued mine down and then put a few welds to mate the brackets to the knuckles - I don't think I'll have any problems. The system is priced at $550 - which I still think is a bit pricey, but there is a good amount of fab work put into the knuckle brackets, and the heims are big. The center link is two tubes of DOM sleeved one over the other and welded at the bungs so it's solid and heavy - about 20 lbs all by itself.

BrettM:
As stated in my original post, the Durango box came from a '99. Definitely worth doing.
 
Here is something I don't understand, if the distance from the ball joint centerline to the drag link attachment centerline point on the steering knuckle is the same as stock and the distance from the center of the steering box shaft to the center of the drag link attachment on the pitman arm is the same as stock, as well as the actual steering box having the same swing as stock, then the steering radius should be the same as stock...provided the tires have the room to move without hitting anything.

In your first waggy steering parts trial, if this was done on a stock axle the steering arm length is the same as stock and the pitman arm length was the same as stock, so as long as the steering box swing was the same as stock, the steering radius should have been the same as stock. However, you tried the waggy steering with a Dakota box that has less throw, so you had reduced steering radius. You didn't know about the swing issue at the time though, and you didn't like the roll of the waggy tie rod, so you installed the Canyon Climber system.

I looked at the pictures on the web http://www.phatjeeps.com/ and it sure looks to me like the new drag link attachment point on the bolt on bracket system for the stock D30 axle is farther away from the ball joint centerline therefore changing the steering arm length. Even if you had the same swing from your steering box, with this longer effective steering arm, you would have a greater steering radius at full lock of the steering box compared to stock.

So, I am just pointing out that apparently you had at least two issues that were affecting your steering radius. One was the longer effective steering arm length of the Canyon Climber system and the other was a reduced swing of the steering box. If you are getting the same turning radius as stock now, I would think the steering box MUST have MORE throw than a stock box since you are still using a longer effective steering arm at the steering knuckle. Jeff
 
Jeff,

You had the very same thought process that I did about all the affected geometry. The thing with the Canyon Climber setup is that it does move the steering parts farther out from the axle due to the add-on brackets, but the location of where the heims mount on each bracket is both out, and toward the center of the jeep. If they'd been moved simply out, you're right, the total arc distance needed to turn the knuckle would be greater. Since the mounting locations are both out and toward center, by my calculations, keeps the total arc distance the same as the stock location.

When Humberto opened both the stock XJ box and the Durango box side by side, it was very clear that each box has the same length piston cylinder. The output shaft to the pitman are interchangeable so there's no difference in gear ratios. The single difference between the boxes was the spacers at each end of the cylinder.

When I installed the Durango box the first time with the Canyon Climber system, I had 2.25 turns of the wheel from center to right - same for left. I now have 3 turns from center both directions. Apparently 3/4 turn makes that much difference.

The important thing is - IT'S FIXED AND WORKING!!! :yelclap:
 
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