• Welcome to the new NAXJA Forum! If your password does not work, please use "Forgot your password?" link on the log-in page. Please feel free to reach out to [email protected] if we can provide any assistance.

injector swap for mileage

DeftwillP

NAXJA Forum User
Location
Round Rock TX
On older models, guys swap out stock injectors for ford 19 pounders. In 96, they switched to 49 psi though. Using the calculation found here: http://www.arizonaxj.com/tech/InjectorInfo.html
Wouldn't a 19lb at 39 psi flow around 21.3 lbs at 49 psi, as in a 96? Lower fuel consumption with better spray patter would yield better mileage.

I've searched the board, but can only find where older jeeps that already are already at 39psi have done the swap.

As it is now, I already think my jeep runs rich.
 
The emissions tests in Texas just show if you pass or not if you're OBDII. They plug into your computer, not your tailpipe.
 
DeftwillP said:
On older models, guys swap out stock injectors for ford 19 pounders. In 96, they switched to 49 psi though. Using the calculation found here: http://www.arizonaxj.com/tech/InjectorInfo.html
Wouldn't a 19lb at 39 psi flow around 21.3 lbs at 49 psi, as in a 96? Lower fuel consumption with better spray patter would yield better mileage.

I've searched the board, but can only find where older jeeps that already are already at 39psi have done the swap.

As it is now, I already think my jeep runs rich.


This is kinda the same Question that i have ask in an other thread

http://www.naxja.org/forum/showthread.php?t=908723

But will try to explain better hire.

All tho i was thinking of it as Efficiency, but ether way, its still the same!
Wound it not give you a better atomization and there for, a better burn. Better I/M,(that i don't have to worry about) better and more complete burn, that should =.......more power for the same burn, or fuel, and if you didn't us the new found power .......better mileage!

It may run rich tell the computer compensated for it and if it can compensate for 24# inj it surly could for 21# (19# with fuel pressure increased to 49 psi)

I just haven't found the "best" way to get the higher pressure.

DeftwillP, you need to make sure you not running rich or lean before you address this, but, if it past E/M recently, no mater how it is tested your not running to rich or lean!


Flash.
 
On a vehicle with 80k+ miles a can of BG44K in the gas will do wonders for restoring good injector operation and mileage. It runs about $20 a can but is well worth it. Don't bother with the cheap stuff as it is a waste of dollars.
 
old_man said:
On a vehicle with 80k+ miles a can of BG44K in the gas will do wonders for restoring good injector operation and mileage. It runs about $20 a can but is well worth it. Don't bother with the cheap stuff as it is a waste of dollars.

X2:thumbup:

Flash.
 
I'm going to have to give in old_man and buy one. I've read about it here so much. I've tried seafoam, lucas, and techron and have used one or another somewhat regularly (~5k miles). Nothing ever really seems to make a difference. I hardly even get smoke with the seafoam.

Any chain places carry the stuff?

PS. I've got just a little over 140K on the heep.
 
DeftwillP said:
On older models, guys swap out stock injectors for ford 19 pounders. In 96, they switched to 49 psi though. Using the calculation found here: http://www.arizonaxj.com/tech/InjectorInfo.html
Wouldn't a 19lb at 39 psi flow around 21.3 lbs at 49 psi, as in a 96? Lower fuel consumption with better spray patter would yield better mileage.

I've searched the board, but can only find where older jeeps that already are already at 39psi have done the swap.

As it is now, I already think my jeep runs rich.

Here's an idea.

http://www.hesco.us/shop.asp?action=details&inventoryID=43021&catId=7973

Flash.

You still need to address the rich condition first!;)
 
The basic air-fuel ratio is set by the computer based on the reading from the oxygen sensor. If it is running rich and a bit rough, I would change the oxygen senor before doing anything else- if the sensor has been in there for a while. That and cleaning the injectors (BG44 or ?) and cleaning the throttle body, then see where you are at. I changed my 1990 (Renix) 4.0 from the OEM injectors to the Ford 19 lb injectors, and saw no change in performance or gas mileage- but it did get rid of the leaks in the body seam on the early injectors.
 
I ran a can of 44k that next day. It's too early to tell yet as I've only driven about 60 miles. Could be placebo effect, but it seems smoother with one exception. My wife(who hasn't riden in the jeep in some time) pointed out how low it was revving when at a light and in drive. I noticed it as well and realized that it has been doing this for some time but I've become accustomed to it. Could this have something to do with the situation? There is a slight oscillation in the rpms, but they seem to dip below 500 while in drive and stopped.

I changed the upstream o2 less than a year ago. No change then either.
 
The trick isn't to change the delivery rate of the fuel injector to increase economy - the trick is to improve the dispersal pattern of the fuel injector. That's why a lot of times you'll see a slight gain in economy after swapping out for Ford "four-hole" injectors - the finer atomisation of the fuel allows for more thorough combustion, using less fuel.

Note that the terms "economy" and "efficiency" are different - "efficiency" refers to the consumption of a given amount of fuel per unit of engine power produced. "Economy" refers to reducing absolute fuel consumption (maintaining the same basic engine configuration) per unit time.

Economy and efficiency, however, can be both increased (in limited amounts) by the same mechanism - in this case, improving atomisation of liquid gasoline, which will serve to increase the surface area available upon which to begin combuston, or by very nearly vapourising it, thus reducing the heat input required to begin combustion in the first place.

By more finely dividing the liquid gasoline ("improving atomisation,") more efficient combustion can be had, which improves fuel efficiency (somewhat less fuel needed to release the same heat output at peak burn times.) This can also improve economy - since you need less fuel to do the same work, you'll use less absolute fuel.

Granted, the best way to increase economy is to reduce the displacement of the engine (didn't Cadillac try something like that with the "4-6-8" system in Northstar?) but that is taking economy as an absolute value, and not as a relative (in this case, "relative" would refer to various engines, using the same basic setup, using differing quantities of fuel to do the same amount of net work.)

Also, the gains you're likely to note in economy from doing something like this would be nominal at best - you're likely to realise savings when you take fuel consumption over periods of 40,000-50,000 miles, and not by the tankful. Most fuel-injected engines (particularly port fuel-injected engines, like ours,) are already tuned to be fairly efficient from the factory. Improving them would require an engine management system allowing for user input and reprogramming of various values (elsewise, the ECU will try to "correct" your modifications through its own adjustments, since it has no idea what you're trying to do. Bear in mind "production" vehicles use "best-fit" programming, aren't tuned to allow for individual variation, and the programming has to make allowances for manufacturing tolerances - therefore, while it "fits" the engine it's running, it's not a "best fit" - and nearly all production vehicles could benefit from some individualised tuning.)

So, the single best modification for economy is what they won't allow us to do - get under OBD and reset a few values to fit that particular engine and that particular management system. Why? Who knows - considering efficiency and economy are not mutually exclusive goals ("efficiency" not only refers to the power made per unit of fuel consumed, but also to the total use of per unit fuel - meaning greater total combustion, and thus lower aggregate harmful emissions...) but EPA and CalEPA seem to continue to suffer from the delusion that none of us know anything about how engines or engine management systems work, and they do (yeah, right) - CalEPA in particular! Even though, for intance, my vehicles are all "pre-OBD," modifications are not allowed (never mind having the ability to prove - using their own machinery and test methods - that removal of an emissions device or two will actually reduce aggregate tailpipe emissions!)

Granted, as OBD-II is advancing, they're doing a better job of allowing more flexibility in engine controls (for manufacturing tolerances, individual variations, environmental conditions, et al,) but I'm assuming we're talking about OBD-I and pre-OBD vehicles here, no?

So, how much you can do to improve fuel economy (consumption per unit time operation) is really a variable quantity - which decreases significantly circa 1996/7, and is on a steady downward trend since. It's always been on a steady downward trend, but there was a sharp drop in the 1996/1997 timeframe, since SAE was the governing body for OBD-II (while CARB was in charge of OBD-I, initially.) Sharpish drops would also be noted at the shifts from carburettors to throttle-body injection, and from TBI to port fuel injection. One can expect a simliar drop to take place once Bosch gets their "Direct Injection" to work - similar to Diesel fuel injection (the Diesel is actually a fairly efficient powerplant in terms of fuel used per unit power generated - it's just not emissions-friendly. But that is also changing...)
 
Once again you have got theses rusty old gears a going in my head!

How many holes are in the stock inj..........you said that the ford 19 injector had 4 hole(smaller holes, more holes = a finer spray for the same fuel........Makes sense :yelclap: ) soOOOooo how many hole do the other 19 # injectors have??? I know that this will not not give me a 2 mpg increase.......well it might if they were parsley plugged But good info to understand before going out and buying inj, whether its a fresh set for stocker or HP inj. for a toy!!!!!

Flash
 
Mileage/injector chat aside: does my last post sound like it could be the iac??
 
DeftwillP said:
Mileage/injector chat aside: does my last post sound like it could be the iac??

could be, take it out and spray with carb cleaner, in the throttle body, and the sensor......It may fix the problem for the price of a can of carb spray!

44k is a grate product but it will only clean the injectors and fuel system!
It not capable of cleaning back that far.


Flash
 
Flash said:
Once again you have got theses rusty old gears a going in my head!

How many holes are in the stock inj..........you said that the ford 19 injector had 4 hole(smaller holes, more holes = a finer spray for the same fuel........Makes sense :yelclap: ) soOOOooo how many hole do the other 19 # injectors have??? I know that this will not not give me a 2 mpg increase.......well it might if they were parsley plugged But good info to understand before going out and buying inj, whether its a fresh set for stocker or HP inj. for a toy!!!!!

Flash

Most port fuel injectors (at least, up until the early- to mid-1990's) had a single hole, I think Ford was the innovator in coming up with the 4-hole injectors for finer fuel atomisation. I'm not sure what the internal arrangement is - whether there is a single "pintle and seat" that meters fuel, or if there are four (one for each hole) - I haven't gotten any to tear to bits yet. However, I'd be inclined to think it's still a single pintle-and-seat arrangement - no sense in making the things difficult to manufacture.

It's the later Ford injectors that have the four holes (I believe they're colour-coded for delivery rate as well, but I'm not sure...) but if you check with FiveO Motorsports, I think you'll find that they call them out separately anyhow. The price difference should be nominal - the only thing that is probably different is the cap at the intake manifold end of the injector.

As far as "rusty old gears" goes, see if you have a drain/fill plug to change the gear lube in your head!:doh:

Will - running BG44K will clean out your fuel system - everywhere fuel goes. Fuel doesn't go through the throttle body - so you'll have to clean that manually. Get a new gasket, dismount the thing, and go to it with carburettor cleaner and an old toothbrush. The IAC can be removed and cleaned much the same way (just be careful you don't pull on the pintle, and be sure to clean the seat in the tbody,) and don't get anything on the TPS. Since you'll have it out on the bench, it should be easy to keep the TPS dry - you'll have control over what's going on.

Oh - and if your engine management feedback loop is up to scratch, running in closed loop should see the system making corrections for things being a bit off. So, having injectors that flow 21#/hour instead of 19 should not be a huge problem - and you may actually pick up a little at peak power, since the EMS will be more readily able to run the 13.5:1 or so that makes peak power (stoich, or "ideal" AFR is 14.7:1. "Best Power" tends to be about 13.0-13.5:1. "Best Cruise" is just a shade leaner than ideal - say, 14.9:1)
 
5-90 said:
Most port fuel injectors (at least, up until the early- to mid-1990's) had a single hole, I think Ford was the innovator in coming up with the 4-hole injectors for finer fuel atomisation. I'm not sure what the internal arrangement is - whether there is a single "pintle and seat" that meters fuel, or if there are four (one for each hole) - I haven't gotten any to tear to bits yet. However, I'd be inclined to think it's still a single pintle-and-seat arrangement - no sense in making the things difficult to manufacture.

It's the later Ford injectors that have the four holes (I believe they're colour-coded for delivery rate as well, but I'm not sure...) but if you check with FiveO Motorsports, I think you'll find that they call them out separately anyhow. The price difference should be nominal - the only thing that is probably different is the cap at the intake manifold end of the injector.

As far as "rusty old gears" goes, see if you have a drain/fill plug to change the gear lube in your head!:doh:
:laugh3: :laugh3: :laugh3: :laugh3: :laugh3:

Doc said, that the drain and fill plug won't do me any good unless i plan on putting a better quality products, w/cholesterol eating additive in it:anon:

Flash.

Will - running BG44K will clean out your fuel system - everywhere fuel goes. Fuel doesn't go through the throttle body - so you'll have to clean that manually. Get a new gasket, dismount the thing, and go to it with carburettor cleaner and an old toothbrush. The IAC can be removed and cleaned much the same way (just be careful you don't pull on the pintle, and be sure to clean the seat in the tbody,) and don't get anything on the TPS. Since you'll have it out on the bench, it should be easy to keep the TPS dry - you'll have control over what's going on.

Oh - and if your engine management feedback loop is up to scratch, running in closed loop should see the system making corrections for things being a bit off. So, having injectors that flow 21#/hour instead of 19 should not be a huge problem - and you may actually pick up a little at peak power, since the EMS will be more readily able to run the 13.5:1 or so that makes peak power (stoich, or "ideal" AFR is 14.7:1. "Best Power" tends to be about 13.0-13.5:1. "Best Cruise" is just a shade leaner than ideal - say, 14.9:1)
 
Back
Top