**UPDATED** HHO GAS....

As you may remember I posted a thread about a kit that uses your cars battery to produce hydrogen which is fed into your intake and mixing with your fuel creating an improved burn and increasing mileage by up to 50% well we all had some great debate over the issue...well here is a PM I just recieved this morning. "
Hello I was wondering if you tried the HHO gas? There is a lot of resistance to it on naxja. I have one on my 95 XJ and I love it, I have to admit that it's only been on there a short period but you can easily achieve 30 to 40 percent better mileage. Just was curious if you tried it and what you thought of it.
lrainman" ...well here it is folks somebody from not paid to say what we wanted to hear... it works!!! a few more testimonials like this and I'm sold!

Do you know this person personally? Why did he choose to PM you instead of posting openly?

Yes. because someone PM'd you randomly and told you it works, it must work.

here someone make it and try it

http://www.free-energy-info.co.uk/Hotsabi.pdf

or this http://www.free-energy-info.co.uk/Smack.pdf

and another http://diyhydrogenhho.com/

I don't trust it at all.

Just smells bad, sets off my bullshit alerts.

You can't get more energy out of a system than you put in. It's just plain physics and chemistry.

Allow me to clarify for the scientifically challenged.

If I have a HHO molecule it is bonded together with force.
It will require just as much energy to break that force and release the H as you will get out of it when it combusts and re-attaches that H.

goodburbon said:

You can't get more energy out of a system than you put in.

Click to expand...

aka, "conservation of energy"

Bent said:

aka, "conservation of energy"

Click to expand...

Yep, but you have to really spell things out for some people, because apparently

"I got a pm, another one like that and I'll be convinced" > "laws of physics"

actually I watched an interesting tv show on a guy that used small amounts of DC power to turn a rather large flywheel which in turn created more power than what was put into it.
believe me I will not argue physics or any other science related topic, as I know nothing about it.
I do however have a personal friend who have used this HHO on his car, and around town it improved his milege approx 50% from his figures. On the hiway however after an hour or two of straight driving, it caused the computer to toss a code which in turn dropped his milege below normal. He reset his computer, and it improved again, but he isn't big on having to do that every other hour or so.

I have no money in it, and it seems cheap/easy to make. If I had the inclination I would certainly try it, sadly I am pretty lazy, and don't feel the need to try yet.

goodburbon said:

Allow me to clarify for the scientifically challenged.

If I have a HHO molecule it is bonded together with force.
It will require just as much energy to break that force and release the H as you will get out of it when it combusts and re-attaches that H.

Click to expand...

You are absolutely correct.
OTOH it is possible that the burning of the H2&O might improve combustion because H2 burns a lot easier than gas.
Even when you use gas, an engine will burn the H2 of the gas easier than the C.
That's why we get unburned carbon as black smoke when the combustion is poor.
So, never mind the people that claim that given enough units they can run on water only, the question is, is it possible to get better mileage due to better conditions in the cylinder caused by the introduction of H2&O?

Nirous facilitates better combustion, does it improve mileage?

so who is this guy that PMed you? is his post count lower than 10?

he has 4 posts, and a join date of january of last year. Maybe just a lurker, but all 4 of his posts are in one thread on the HHO systems.

That thread ended up in the garbage, I'll try and find out why.

goodburbon said:

Nirous facilitates better combustion, does it improve mileage?

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"Nitrous" allows you to get more oxygen into the engine to burn. It creates more power but does not improve mileage. Remember, that gas mileage we all worry so much about anymore is how much gas you are using to ignite oxygen which is what your engine is burning. Your engine, after all, is just a big oxygen pump.

goodburbon said:

he has 4 posts, and a join date of january of last year. Maybe just a lurker, but all 4 of his posts are in one thread on the HHO systems.

That thread ended up in the garbage, I'll try and find out why.

Click to expand...

iiiiinnnteresting... sounds a little fishy to me

falcon556 said:

..............
So, never mind the people that claim that given enough units they can run on water only, the question is, is it possible to get better mileage due to better conditions in the cylinder caused by the introduction of H2&O?

Click to expand...

FINALLY!! someone who gets the point of these "useless" threads. Personally, I don't give a rat's backside if you can run your car completely on water. It's been done before, but not practically. I just want to improve my mileage, and possibly make the Jeep run a little smoother.

le sigh*

RaccoonJoe said:

FINALLY!! someone who gets the point of these "useless" threads. Personally, I don't give a rat's backside if you can run your car completely on water. It's been done before, but not practically. I just want to improve my mileage, and possibly make the Jeep run a little smoother.

Click to expand...

Then keep your jeep well tuned, and your tires properly inflated.

RaccoonJoe said:

FINALLY!! someone who gets the point of these "useless" threads. Personally, I don't give a rat's backside if you can run your car completely on water. It's been done before, but not practically. I just want to improve my mileage, and possibly make the Jeep run a little smoother.

Click to expand...

Yeah, and so do car companies. You think they would overlook a $30 bottle of baking soda, water, and two electrical leads if it gave 50% better city mileage? No. They spend millions researching designs for better gas mileage.

Until there is some hard evidence showing exactly how it improves it, over a wide scale of time, these threads are pointless. They shouldn't even be in OEM Tech.

I would like to try it with a solar panel and a deep cycle battery, but I still don't think I would see even a 1% increase in gas mileage. HHO has been around for many years (30+) and yet there is still no hard evidence showing that it does infact increase gas mileage. Do it yourself, make a chart of it over 10 different fillups and then post a thread about it.

Don't know what guy or thread you all are discussing, I know there are some sham artists out there after a quick buck, and some honest people trying stuff that don't really know what their are doing yet, but the HHO discussion also known as browns gas, is alive and well in this thread:

http://www.naxja.org/forum/showthread.php?t=954698&highlight=hydrogen

I have some experience in this area (I am a Chemical Engineer), and in spite of the fly by night scam artists, there is a firm in Canada already on the stock exchange building these generators (basically an electrolysis cell) and selling them for $10,000 a piece to large trucking firms who are retrofitting them to the big diesel freight rigs.

Seems a DOE research project back in 1976-78 showed that small amounts of hydrogen fed to diesel engines improved the MPG about 25% above and beyond the fuel used to generate the electlricity to generate the hydrogen. Seems the hydrogen feed improves the combustion process enough to improve the power and energy yield of the diesel engine running 95% diesel, 5% (apx) hydrogen.

I have also read that the people trying it on gas engines are having problems with the stock O2 sensor and computer controls, and they are working on getting around the A/F ratio computer control problem.

The interesting thing about the 70's DOE research was that it also reduced diesel exhaust carbon, soute (sp?), PM, and unburned hydrocarbons to current EPA limits with out filters and cat converters that are going on this years models.