Starter hanging up, mounting issue

Although it is not perfectly clear in the photos, there is a steel plate, maybe 1/16" thick between the engine and transmission housing, that extends and lays over the aluminum tranny housing opening that the starter bolts onto. The threads are in the aluminum part behind the steel plate, but the thread-cert on the bottom extends out to the face. You can see a hint of the plate in the upper part where the holes do not line up perfectly, above the top starter mounting bolt hole. It is possible that I am not getting a flush mount at the very bottom, due to the thread cert standing out a little too far, but the other visual evidence indicates a right/left side issue as well concerning flush mounting.

If I did not post it before, the loose starter, unmounted, works perfectly, bench tested it four times.

Doesn't the bolt already fit loosely in the starter hole? The bolt laying next to it looks smaller than the hole in the picture. If you put the starter up without the bolts, does it fit snugly in the hole in the steel plate? I'd try it again after grinding the nutsert down to flush or a little below. It kind of looks like you could also clean up the flywheel teeth with a file.

winterbeater said:

Doesn't the bolt already fit loosely in the starter hole? The bolt laying next to it looks smaller than the hole in the picture. If you put the starter up without the bolts, does it fit snugly in the hole in the steel plate? I'd try it again after grinding the nutsert down to flush or a little below. It kind of looks like you could also clean up the flywheel teeth with a file.

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I don't know about grinding on the thread cert (stainless steel wire, sounds like a futile process and likely to make things worse), I might have better luck using diagonal wire cutters to trim it back.

Oh, it's a wire like a helicoil. OK, another option would be to put a big chamfer on the starter at that bolt hole. Then the helicoil won't hit it.

winterbeater said:

Oh, it's a wire like a helicoil. OK, another option would be to put a big chamfer on the starter at that bolt hole. Then the helicoil won't hit it.

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Yes, it is a helicoil, SS helicoil. Chamfer sounds real interesting, but will not help if the coil/thread is pulling into the starter and lifting that steel plate as it stretches. It looks a little to me like it might be lifting the plate by expanding and stretching as it grabs the bolt at the face.

seems to me either the cover plate is holdin you up on the block side and binding the teeth on the flywheel or the "kickout" on the starter is binding up on the return part when force is applied to it.....wouldnt show up on a bench test no matter how many times u try but if u pull the nose apart you might find a wear spot on the shaft under the gear that would bind under load and not let the gear return. just where i would start if it were my heep. the rebuild for those starters are cheap and worth a try before you go modifying nething else. just my .02 :greensmok

A dremel type tool with a stone on it will grind stainless. When you are done grinding, work the bolt back in without the starter to make sure the helicoil is back in place.

Are you sure you shouldn't remove that helicoil and put another one in deeper? The way it looks, you could use a miniature screwdriver to push the wire towards the center and twist it out with a needlenose. I have removed helicoils before with that method.

Thinking a little out of the box, it almost looks like you could drill straight through and put a nut on the back. Or drill and tap for a solid insert (Keensert, etc) which would have a bigger thread than the helicol on the outside.

90 waggy said:

seems to me either the cover plate is holdin you up on the block side and binding the teeth on the flywheel or the "kickout" on the starter is binding up on the return part when force is applied to it.....wouldnt show up on a bench test no matter how many times u try but if u pull the nose apart you might find a wear spot on the shaft under the gear that would bind under load and not let the gear return. just where i would start if it were my heep. the rebuild for those starters are cheap and worth a try before you go modifying nething else. just my .02 :greensmok

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The old starter had this problem before I replaced it (this is not an old used starter, in other words). The helicoil was installed before the old starter began hanging up and grinding (bendix went bad shortly after installing the helicoil, helicoil was installed to replace a busted, sheared bolt that I tried to extract by drilling out, but steel bolts are not easily drilled out of aluminum in tight spots...). The bolts worked their way loose, one fell out, and the other sheered when starting it one day, before all the games began.

So the current starter is a completely rebuilt (high quality rebuilt, Beck-Anrley, $100, not a junk rebuild starter), it was sticking as soon as I installed it, but it stopped sticking after 2-3 starts, and then it worked perfectly, flawlessly for about 100 starts (6-12 months of occasional use, not always the DD). Then it started hanging up again 100% of the time (3 tests), so I pulled the starter to test the starter only. The starter is too new for it to be starter wear of any kind. And the issue with the thread insert and clearance is the usual suspect at this point (IMHO). I have other friends who had the same hang up problem with a new starter (or new rebuilt) that was solved by opening up the starter mounting holes and backing the starter off 1/16" or so off the flywheel but keeping it all parallel. But as I said below I suspect the first problem is the raised helicoil pushing out on the steel plate. perhaps the helicoil moved or slipped over time?

winterbeater said:

A dremel type tool with a stone on it will grind stainless. When you are done grinding, work the bolt back in without the starter to make sure the helicoil is back in place.

Are you sure you shouldn't remove that helicoil and put another one in deeper? The way it looks, you could use a miniature screwdriver to push the wire towards the center and twist it out with a needlenose. I have removed helicoils before with that method.

Thinking a little out of the box, it almost looks like you could drill straight through and put a nut on the back. Or drill and tap for a solid insert (Keensert, etc) which would have a bigger thread than the helicol on the outside.

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I have been afraid to remove the helicoil, for fear of losing what I have, and maybe not being able to set a new one in their as well as this one is set. The aluminum back side, I fear will take much more abuse. It is not a blind hole, but I don't think there is room in the rear for a nut and definitely not for a nut and a wrench, it is very tight and recessed in the back, and not flat (maybe a lock washer would hold the nut?). I do not want to pull the entire power train so I am working in somewhat cramped quarters.


Keensert?????????

I might consider removing the helicoil, putting in a drillable steel puddy, then redrilling and re-tapping the hole for the helicoil and installing a new helicoil. Part of my current problem may be that I did not get the current helicoil installed perfectly perpendicular to the flywheel, and parallel to the starter, due to cramped space of trying to get up against the block with a drill of any kind, and the fact that the aluminum hole I ended up with was not 100% perfectly round. I had to use a special 90 degree drill adapter to get in there as it was.

By the way, it is a little hard to see, but the inside hole, top mounting hole on the starter itself (top is the solenoid side), has a clear pattern of thread markings on the inside of the aluminum, but the bottom hole does not. I found that rather strange, as I would have expected the opposite since the helicoil on the bottom is at a slight angle, and should have forced the bolt to that on the bottom hole, not the top one!!!!! Note that thread imprint in the hole is on the engine, block side of the hole!!!!!!

A close friend of mine (a real sharp do it yourselfer) made an interesting observation. He says that since there is no polished area on the top of the teeth of flywheel, or in the bottom of the groves of the flywheel, that it does not look to him like the flywheel and starter gear are getting too close, close enough to cause a lock up that would keep the starter from disengaging, therefore he sees no need to back the starter away from the flywheel by opening up the mounting holes in the starter (with ovals).

That leads me to think once again it is the lower bolt thread cocking the starter up a bit of an angle, pointing the gear down slightly, that is letting it engage to start, but holding it from disengaging once it is rotating?

Its hard to see from the pics, but what is the wear pattern like on the starter gear and the flex plate gear? If it was hanging up like that I would think there would be more wear toward the rear side of each gear.

Exactly what the job of retracting the gear on the starter? The solenoid engages it, but what pulls it back. I'm not up on starter tech.

Maybe put a washer between the starter and the bell housing and see what that gets you? Not an idea solution if it works, as the bolts will then be taking most of the load, but it might point you in a direction. Also, on the photo of the bell housing plate it appears the starter isn't making contact with the engine side of the plate.. maybe try a shim under the outer side of the starter?

Found an interesting site on time serts, versus helicoil versus keenserts. I had never heard of keen or time serts before today.

http://www.timesert.com/html/faq.html

Talyn said:

Its hard to see from the pics, but what is the wear pattern like on the starter gear and the flex plate gear? If it was hanging up like that I would think there would be more wear toward the rear side of each gear.

Exactly what the job of retracting the gear on the starter? The solenoid engages it, but what pulls it back. I'm not up on starter tech.

Maybe put a washer between the starter and the bell housing and see what that gets you? Not an idea solution if it works, as the bolts will then be taking most of the load, but it might point you in a direction. Also, on the photo of the bell housing plate it appears the starter isn't making contact with the engine side of the plate.. maybe try a shim under the outer side of the starter?

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There is a heavy spring that pulls it back. The only visable wear seems to be between the teeth, where they rub and mesh.

Ecomike said:

Found an interesting site on time serts, versus helicoil versus keenserts. I had never heard of keen or time serts before today.

http://www.timesert.com/html/faq.html

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saw those on Truck U a couple of weeks ago, they did a Ford head, like them for sure, tad more work than helicoils but they look much stronger.

The advantage of keenserts is that they use a standard tap size vs. the special helicoil tap size (saves money), and they are more durable for applications where the bolt may be removed several times. I believe though that a helicoil has a higher ultimate strength as the wire can flex a little to get higher percentage of contact area in the thread.

You have to be a little careful as there are different brands of keensert type inserts and they use different sizes of standard taps.

I finally got around to redoing the thread insert, thread-cert, for the lower mounting bolt on my starter. I also hammered the steel cover plate back down flat and flush.

The install looks clean and flush, the thread cert is deep, not at the surface, so I expected my starter hanging problem to be gone. No such luck.

The gremlins here have multiplied, and I now 3 transmissions that are down, or nearly down, starting problems on a fourth, and no joy on this one yet.

So I am back to look at the starter itself this time. I have one (or 2?) spare starters now, but it has been so long, I forget exactly where I was fighting this gremlin last time. All I recall is I had decided it was a bent cover plate at the thread cert and bad thread cert that had walked out and bent the plate and thrown the starter cockeyed, sideways enough to cause the starter to hang up on the fly wheel. As usual it seems I had, or have more than one problem.

If I got the new threads of the drilled hole and thread cert off set a little towards the block (which is possible), I guess that could be the problem, in which case I could take a little metal off the inside hole of the starters bottom bolt hole, on the left side.

I think there was also a possible problem(s) inside the newly rebuilt starter, but IIRC I tested both unmounted multiple times and they did not hang up, which eliminated one, but not the other?

After rereading the entire prior thread, it looks to me like it is time to oval the lower hole in the starter. Unless there is still a chance this is problem with the starter itself, like the pinion gear or?


But, I just got to thinking, that I might need to think about torque, and which side bolt hole is being pushed on. But I do not know the rotation on the starter, and the reference point for that rotation. Looking at the thread marks on the starter in the earlier pictures, I might need to add the relief to right side of the top bolt hole due to torque, even though the alignment issue bolt hole problem "MAY" be at the bottom (not sure it is an issue now).

However, this old post I made here a while back, has me scratching my head:

"A close friend of mine (a real sharp do it yourselfer) made an interesting observation. He says that since there is no polished area on the top of the teeth of flywheel, or in the bottom of the groves of the flywheel, that it does not look to him like the flywheel and starter gear are getting too close, close enough to cause a lock up that would keep the starter from disengaging, therefore he sees no need to back the starter away from the flywheel sideways by opening up the mounting holes in the starter (with ovals).

That leads me to think once again it is (was) the lower bolt thread cocking the starter up a bit of an angle, pointing the gear down slightly, that is letting it engage to start, but holding it from disengaging once it is rotating? "

If that was the case, I think I have it flush, which means the problem is something else?