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Electric future

I was reading in the local paper that theres a cattle farm that collects its cow patties and uses them to make methane and then uses the methane to fuel a steam turbine that makes a huge amount of electrical power (edison will only allow them to run at 30% capacity till they upgrade the lines to feed the grid), it fuels thier farm vehicles, and it still allows them to operate a functional cattle farm with very little if any negative impact on the area.
 
Gerr said:
I was reading in the local paper that theres a cattle farm that collects its cow patties and uses them to make methane and then uses the methane to fuel a steam turbine that makes a huge amount of electrical power (edison will only allow them to run at 30% capacity till they upgrade the lines to feed the grid), it fuels thier farm vehicles, and it still allows them to operate a functional cattle farm with very little if any negative impact on the area.


Sounds good, but I bet that SSTG cost a pretty penny.
 
If I may, in the most general fashion: All of the largest pieces of equipment are electric: locomotives, excavators, crawlers, and heavy haulers to name a few. The catch is that they carry their own generation system on-board, powered by diesel reciprocating engines. In some applications the generation system is be powered by turbines, as with shipboard propulsion. In any case, when big power is needed, particularly in high torque applications, electric is the dominant traction system. Overland trucks could be converted to electric with only the adaptation of locomotive technology, but like the locomotives, they would have to carry their own generation systems.

In the larger picture, taking into account distribution and supply for general transportation, the conversion to electric mobility without on-board generation would require a leap in electrical storage density capacity to something comparable with a Star Trek phaser. We are no where near that. Super-capacitors and ultra-capacitors are making their way into a few public transportation applications, and auto manufacturers should start using them soon, but even ultra-capacitors represent only 2 to 3 orders of magnitude beyond chemical batteries in terms of energy storage density (although the capacitor's efficiency and high amperage capacity give them a distinct advantage). Right now, I'm waiting to see what the nanotube capacitors can do.

In short (very rare for me): Yes, the future is electric. But the big hurtle to overcome is not generation but storage. We need high density electrical storage before we can move forward.

Funny: I had to add 'phaser' to my Google Toolbar spell checker. jeeze. Catch up Google.
 
as it is right now the roads cant support a big rig that would weigh enough to have a locomotive stlye power system

XJ Dreamin' said:
If I may, in the most general fashion: All of the largest pieces of equipment are electric: locomotives, excavators, crawlers, and heavy haulers to name a few. The catch is that they carry their own generation system on-board, powered by diesel reciprocating engines. In some applications the generation system is be powered by turbines, as with shipboard propulsion. In any case, when big power is needed, particularly in high torque applications, electric is the dominant traction system. Overland trucks could be converted to electric with only the adaptation of locomotive technology, but like the locomotives, they would have to carry their own generation systems.

In the larger picture, taking into account distribution and supply for general transportation, the conversion to electric mobility without on-board generation would require a leap in electrical storage density capacity to something comparable with a Star Trek phaser. We are no where near that. Super-capacitors and ultra-capacitors are making their way into a few public transportation applications, and auto manufacturers should start using them soon, but even ultra-capacitors represent only 2 to 3 orders of magnitude beyond chemical batteries in terms of energy storage density (although the capacitor's efficiency and high amperage capacity give them a distinct advantage). Right now, I'm waiting to see what the nanotube capacitors can do.

In short (very rare for me): Yes, the future is electric. But the big hurtle to overcome is not generation but storage. We need high density electrical storage before we can move forward.

Funny: I had to add 'phaser' to my Google Toolbar spell checker. jeeze. Catch up Google.
 
RichP said:
Sounds good, but I bet that SSTG cost a pretty penny.

It's just a TG for land lubbers:)

I don't think the story is quite right. Anything on this planet that can burn can produce steam. A steam turbine is not a Briggs & Stratton lawnmower engine. If they built a "power plant" that used cow patties as a fuel source, I doubt they would not install sufficient transmission capacity to get it to the grid.
 
Gerr said:
as it is right now the roads cant support a big rig that would weigh enough to have a locomotive stlye power system

Well, that's true. The roads can't support the gross weight they run now. In any case, a single truck doesn't run enough payload to make a hybrid drive practical. You'd need to be at a payload-to-tractor ratio comparable with a train, but the debate of track vs. truck is a different thread.

I suppose I was responding to the comment that when you want something done you turn to diesel. True enough, but when you really want something done you use diesel to generate electricity. I only meant to point out that the technology to convert trucks to hybrid exists, if you were so inclined. The real issue for the future is still storage density. That's where we need the big breakthrough.
 
XJ Dreamin' said:
If I may, in the most general fashion: All of the largest pieces of equipment are electric: locomotives, excavators, crawlers, and heavy haulers to name a few. The catch is that they carry their own generation system on-board, powered by diesel reciprocating engines. In some applications the generation system is be powered by turbines, as with shipboard propulsion. In any case, when big power is needed, particularly in high torque applications, electric is the dominant traction system. Overland trucks could be converted to electric with only the adaptation of locomotive technology, but like the locomotives, they would have to carry their own generation systems.

In the larger picture, taking into account distribution and supply for general transportation, the conversion to electric mobility without on-board generation would require a leap in electrical storage density capacity to something comparable with a Star Trek phaser. We are no where near that. Super-capacitors and ultra-capacitors are making their way into a few public transportation applications, and auto manufacturers should start using them soon, but even ultra-capacitors represent only 2 to 3 orders of magnitude beyond chemical batteries in terms of energy storage density (although the capacitor's efficiency and high amperage capacity give them a distinct advantage). Right now, I'm waiting to see what the nanotube capacitors can do.

In short (very rare for me): Yes, the future is electric. But the big hurtle to overcome is not generation but storage. We need high density electrical storage before we can move forward.

Funny: I had to add 'phaser' to my Google Toolbar spell checker. jeeze. Catch up Google.

Electricity isn't that big of a deal. When you look at locomotives, that's a bit different. They use huge diesels to power motors. On that scale, they operate very efficiently. The engines run more optimum, and motors can produce big torque. Electricity is an easily manipulated energy source. One of it's big advantages is transmission of that energy with little loss. So the benefit in locomotives is the efficiencies of diesel, with the torque of motors, with the very little energy loss in the drivetrain, and the millions of miles they travel.

Cars are a bit different. We can get higher efficiencies for sure. It is more beneficial in cars with all the start and stop driving to allow the generator to run in a more efficient power band. Regenerative braking is then helpful. However, I don't see it as a replacement. We still need a fuel source to power a combustion engine. We are still producing emissions if that is any concern to you. If we wiped the slate clean today, we could drop our use greatly, but that use will be consumed by our continued growth.

The real benefits to electricity is the ability to transmit it over great distances with little loss. The biggest downfall has always been our ability to store it. Any real breakthroughs in storage would be huge.

To continue to look for alternate fuel sources to burn like biofuel is a band aid. One thing that is overlooked with biofuel is National Defense. What will happen in the future when our national fuel supply is able to be completely neutralized by chemical, or biological, war fare? What happens if some sort of natural calamity grinds the country to a halt and our ability to defend ourselves with it.

We still have huge reserves of oil. It is just more costly to extract. The other problem with new technologies, is expense. There are many ways to convert energy. Oil is a very cheap source to convert. We can look at our problems and say we are going to fix certain ones, but if that doubles the cost, that severely hurts us in our ability to produce goods and compete in a global market.

It's great to reduce emissions, raise efficiencies, and be energy dependent, but not if the rest of the world continues to use the now more available oil to out produce us. It is OK to extract more expensive oil and use it as long as the rest of the world is using it as well. The field is even. One reason we are where we are today is because we have always had cheap energy to power industry. We can't forget about that
 
XJ Dreamin' said:
I suppose I was responding to the comment that when you want something done you turn to diesel. True enough, but when you really want something done you use diesel to generate electricity. I only meant to point out that the technology to convert trucks to hybrid exists, if you were so inclined. The real issue for the future is still storage density. That's where we need the big breakthrough.

Fair enough (the comment you reference was mine), but it does seem that hybrid technology is not sufficiently economical for Mack/Peterbuilt/et.al. to get into yet.

Besides, is hybridization really the right way to go for long-range trucks? Most hybrid cars do better in the city than on the highway, and I have to think that it'd take a couple of tons of current-technology batteries to hybridize something big enough to haul a 40-ton trailer around.

Perhaps electric in-city buses and trucks, powered off of biodiesel-fired diesel generators, would be a good route for the immediate future. (and if they used waste fryer oil for the Bio, they'd smell better too!)

Rob
 
Rob Mayercik said:
Fair enough (the comment you reference was mine), but it does seem that hybrid technology is not sufficiently economical for Mack/Peterbuilt/et.al. to get into yet.

Besides, is hybridization really the right way to go for long-range trucks? Most hybrid cars do better in the city than on the highway, and I have to think that it'd take a couple of tons of current-technology batteries to hybridize something big enough to haul a 40-ton trailer around.

Perhaps electric in-city buses and trucks, powered off of biodiesel-fired diesel generators, would be a good route for the immediate future. (and if they used waste fryer oil for the Bio, they'd smell better too!)

Rob

No, trucks don't haul enough payload to make current diesel/electric drivetrains worth while. That's why I say you need a payload-to-tractor ratio on the scale of a train for current tech to be feasible. But that's my point. With current tech, to make a truck electric it would have to carry it's own generation system. That is why it is not feasible. Not that electric is not efficient, but that with current tech you have to carry a generation system. Why? Because batteries are not dense enough - plus, they're too slow. Super- and ultra-capacitors have advanced and some are being deployed (Shanghai has a bus route with super-capacitor powered buses that recharge in a few minutes at each stop), but they don't store enough electricity for long haul - not yet.
 
rightseatsis said:
This is my GEM car(all electric) and I commute to work in it (4.4 miles each way)

I just noticed, "Teraflex". Have you lifted it yet ? :)
 
XJ Dreamin' said:
No, trucks don't haul enough payload to make current diesel/electric drivetrains worth while. That's why I say you need a payload-to-tractor ratio on the scale of a train for current tech to be feasible. But that's my point. With current tech, to make a truck electric it would have to carry it's own generation system. That is why it is not feasible. Not that electric is not efficient, but that with current tech you have to carry a generation system. Why? Because batteries are not dense enough - plus, they're too slow. Super- and ultra-capacitors have advanced and some are being deployed (Shanghai has a bus route with super-capacitor powered buses that recharge in a few minutes at each stop), but they don't store enough electricity for long haul - not yet.

Sounds like we're on the same page after all.

Too bad we can't use politicians' brains for batteries - even the power cells in the Star Trek Phasers aren't that dense...

Rob
 
Slonopotam said:
Trains. Slower in operations, but cheaper in long term.

Plus, look at this.

Not really, the ones I commute on daily which are over 20 years old flat out haul A$$ and are up to 79mph in about 10 seconds, thats 5 cars with a power unit up front or behind. Sometimes they use overhead power sometimes just the diesel electric but diesel electric in the ones coming out of Hackettstown or going to Hackettstown as there is no overhead that far out. My current commute goes out to milemarker 49 from milemarker 0 in Hoboken, travel time is 1 hour 10 minutes with 12 stops, stops average 60-90 seconds.
I was never a train advocate till I started using them, after 9 months of commuting I'm basing my next job or contract on rail availability.
 
Rob Mayercik said:
Sounds like we're on the same page after all.

Too bad we can't use politicians' brains for batteries - even the power cells in the Star Trek Phasers aren't that dense...

Rob

or we could go the matrix route and use babies from third world countries to fuel america at 1.5v each!
 
old_man said:
Coal, powering electric cars since 1976
More like 1946.

I dug one out of my great uncles garage a fews years ago. It was totally electric, street legal, little smaller than your average golf cart, and was built in the mid '40's.

But yes....I completely agree. Electricity has to come from somewhere.
 
fxdlrider said:
Check out this electric

http://www.commutercars.com/

Go to the news section and watch the videos.

They claim it's nearly impossible to tip it over because it's got nearly 2,000 pounds of batteries under the foor. That's a perfect example of the need for more dense storage. Imagine what that thing could do with the same power at half the weight. Too much payload taken up with storage. That has got to improve.
 
streetpirate said:
or we could go the matrix route and use babies from third world countries to fuel america at 1.5v each!

I never understood that. You got to feed them, even granted, they're in some kind of suspended animation trance - still, you got to feed them. Can you really get a return at 1.5v. You'd do better to burn them for steam generation.
 
XJ Dreamin' said:
I never understood that. You got to feed them, even granted, they're in some kind of suspended animation trance - still, you got to feed them. Can you really get a return at 1.5v. You'd do better to burn them for steam generation.
yes, but if you feed them, that's the same as a bio fuel.
of course, one has to wonder, with no sunlight, how did they produce foods to feed?
 
youve got to find the pink slime they used in the movie.




what about instead of paying electric bills, we have everyone put in a certain amount of time each month on excersize bikes hooked up to generators.
it would get rid of the obesity problem in the US at the same time.
 
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