what do you think...

[rehab]

i scratched a drawing out on some paper today for my buddy to bend up some tube, just want to run it by you all first to see what you think.

the mid hoop will sit right on the B piller (pic got a little out of scale) but the triangulated bars in the back will still allow for the rear seat to be used. i really would like the rear seat to still be functional since i i drive it on my up north trips with all my gear and buddies. so what do you think

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b298/88jeepcherokee/scan0001.jpg

top view

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b298/88jeepcherokee/scan0002.jpg

oh yeah and its not like im racing it or anything, i just want to be protected my self and the stucture of the jeep incase of a flop or tumble down a hill, and 5 points will be going in also.

[rocklandxjer]

have you thought about bracing it to the frame, or are you just going to bolt it in and hope it works... also you might want to read about different ways people have welded the cages together, because inside the rig its really hard to get good penetration all around when the cage is inside...

and my only change would be

http://i12.tinypic.com/35jw55l.jpg

[rocklandxjer]

so you can recline your seats yet keep the rear functional. also id add some gussets to all of those joints. if you really want to protect yourself, and not just "have a cage"

[RWKHausSupply]

I would make sure you have enough helmets for all occupent...

With all thos eabove cross bars and the b-pillar X being right where the heads will go...

Might want to search some more and see what others are doing in a XJ?

[rocklandxjer]

i was thinking something like this for your b pillar and cross bar.

http://i12.tinypic.com/2aewl4z.jpg

[rocklandxjer]

and if you insist on these

http://i12.tinypic.com/2nks85e.jpg

[rehab]

and if you insist on these

http://i12.tinypic.com/2nks85e.jpg
i like this idea and i was just planing on welding and bolting the cage to the unibody, im not really sure how i would go about tieing it into the "frame".

[Ghost]

and if you insist on these

http://i12.tinypic.com/2nks85e.jpg
What program is that? Nice drawing.

[RWKHausSupply]

What program is that? Nice drawing.
Simple autocad will do that..

[vetteboy]

Pretty much exactly what I did.

http://www.phatserver.net/~chris/XJbuild/081706/cage2.JPG

If you want that hoop on the B-pillar, you need to have it bow out like that, otherwise your seat will be up against the steering wheel.

http://www.phatserver.net/~chris/XJbuild/082706/cage1.JPG

For tying it into the 'frame', the commonly accepted way is to have plates bolt through the floor:

http://www.phatserver.net/~chris/XJbuild/082706/cage3.JPG
^not real bolts

http://www.phatserver.net/~chris/XJbuild/082706/cage4.JPG

and then those plates get braced into the reinforcing on the unibody rails (the blue angle stuff, but cage plate isn't tied in yet).

I also did the dash bar like you've got pictured, you can sorta see it here.

http://www.phatserver.net/~chris/XJbuild/082706/side.JPG

[rocklandxjer]

simple autocad did do it.

autocad 2006

id use inventor, but i dont have it at my house...

[rehab]

i know for a fact if you have autoCAD LT it wont do 3d models, just FYI

[rocklandxjer]

autocad lt is autocad lite. an intro, i think they like give them out for free now.... autocad (insert year here) is the actual program. and if used with the right amount of knowlege, and patience, its a fairly powerful program.

but no where near as powerful as programs such as inventor and solidworks for ME and Revit for architecture.

its a fun program to mess around with and if you put enough time into it you can make really great designs

[rocklandxjer]

http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k152/rocklandxjer/tabler.jpg


i love the way autocad looks when materials are added and its all rendered...

[Brady's XJ]

Yikes! Hope I'm never one of the guys sitting on the sides of the table with NO legroom!

ps. that's a bitchin fridge you got

[rocklandxjer]

heh heh

its an old drawing i did for class one day last year. just showing the rendering.

all my actual design drawings are at my computer at school...

and yes. the fridge IS bitchin! lol
the sad thing is it looks pretty much lifelike to the one i have at my home...

[ashmanjeepxj]

http://www.phatserver.net/~chris/XJbuild/082706/cage4.JPG


I dont think that is safe at all.. well you sid your gonn tie it into the sleving and the unibody.. That would be ok. why do you want to unbolt it? if you dammage it that bad from a roll the whole XJ body will be a loss. Welded is better then boltd IMO.


I made this one 2 years ago..
http://www.wheelingarizona.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3268

Run the tube through the floor so you can drop it down to finish all the welds on the top.. The 3/6in box connects between the sleved frame rails and the 250wall sliders..
http://www.wheelingarizona.com/forums/files/B-hoopfoot.jpg

you can tie it into the seatbelt sholder strap mounts...
http://www.wheelingarizona.com/forums/files/cagedropped.jpg


http://www.wheelingarizona.com/forums/files/backview.jpg

[vetteboy]

I dont think that is safe at all.. well you sid your gonn tie it into the sleving and the unibody.. That would be ok. why do you want to unbolt it? if you dammage it that bad from a roll the whole XJ body will be a loss. Welded is better then boltd IMO.

Yeah I am DEFINITELY not leaving it like that. All 8 points in the cab will be tied into the unibody...probably with pieces of the 2" x .25" wall tube I have left over from the lower links.

It's not so much that I am wanting to unbolt it - chances are the whole thing won't come out when it's done anyway. I built and installed it in sections. Being my first experiment ever with tube I didn't trust myself to be able to build it good enough without having it sit on the floor, and this was a better solution than trying to drop it down as far as what I was able to do.

This way also integrates the floor into the design, and helps keep the floor panels from pulling up away from the unibody rails (I've seen this happen). With 32 grade-8 1/2" bolts holding it together I don't think there will be any strength issues compared to welding it directly to the rails really.

[vetteboy]

Just an update because I got something done on it. This look better?

http://www.phatserver.net/~chris/XJbuild/102406/brace2.JPG

Boatsides down the length of that too.

[ashmanjeepxj]

Just an update because I got something done on it. This look better?

http://www.phatserver.net/~chris/XJbuild/102406/brace2.JPG

Boatsides down the length of that too.

Is that 120 wall 2X2,Thicker box tube has more rounded off corners...
Did you weld it with stick?

[vetteboy]

Is that 120 wall 2X2,Thicker box tube has more rounded off corners...
Did you weld it with stick?

No, regular MIG. I gotta go and lay another pass on the brace yet, but I didn't have my welding jacket at the time and I got sick of catching myself on fire.

Yeah it's 1/8" wall tube - I'm guessing you're asking because you don't think it's thick anough? I'd agree if it were just a single piece sticking out of the frame rail reinforcement, but in this case where it's welded on both ends (and the 2x5 above it is welded all the way down the old door sills) I think it'll be ok.

[ashmanjeepxj]

No, regular MIG. I gotta go and lay another pass on the brace yet, but I didn't have my welding jacket at the time and I got sick of catching myself on fire.

Yeah it's 1/8" wall tube - I'm guessing you're asking because you don't think it's thick anough? I'd agree if it were just a single piece sticking out of the frame rail reinforcement, but in this case where it's welded on both ends (and the 2x5 above it is welded all the way down the old door sills) I think it'll be ok.

120 is fine for cage work but it the low point and could easily be dented once dented 120 wall is not very stong... I have abit of 120wall dentage..

[vetteboy]

120 is fine for cage work but it the low point and could easily be dented once dented 120 wall is not very stong... I have abit of 120wall dentage..

The 'boatsides' that are going over it are 1/8" also...and will be attached by at least 3 fasteners into each brace (5 total on each side). For what that's worth.

[ashmanjeepxj]

The 'boatsides' that are going over it are 1/8" also...and will be attached by at least 3 fasteners into each brace (5 total on each side). For what that's worth.

yea that should help alot with dent resistance.

I wish I boat sided mine when I started, now its too much work to swap, After my cage is too dented Ill boat side mine on the next rebuild. and use DOM not HREW to help prevent denting.

[vetteboy]

yea that should help alot with dent resistance.

I wish I boat sided mine when I started, now its too much work to swap, After my cage is too dented Ill boat side mine on the next rebuild. and use DOM not HREW to help prevent denting.

Yeah, cage is all DOM. I still have a lot more sheet metal than you do though, so if the cage gets dented, it's most likely because the roof got dented first. :)

Still gotta figure out how to do the C-pillar tie-in though so the rear tires don't rub on the bracing.

[RuffedUpXJ]

autoCad is so far behind is drawing these days, look into ProE you can change on the fly so you just rough sketch and then change it. And the X thru the bB-pillar could be the difference between you walking away from a roll and havving to be removed after the roll.

[vetteboy]

ProE is what I always used for 3D stuff. However being able to model is also nice.

http://www.phatserver.net/~chris/cage/iso.JPG

http://www.phatserver.net/~chris/cage/new1.JPG

Simulating a flop onto the driver's side roof/rain gutter edge.

http://www.phatserver.net/~chris/cage/stressresult2.JPG

The stress results show that the primary cage members doing all the work are the diagonals in the B-pillar, followed closely by shear force at all floor attachments. With those removed:

http://www.phatserver.net/~chris/cage/stressresult4.JPG

notice that hardly any parts of the cage are doing anything. Nearly all the stress is directed right at the connections to the floor, and the stress value is nearly twice that of the previous design. By adding the triangular bracing at the b-pillar you're greatly increasing the strength available and also the efficiency of the cage at resisting impacts.

[rehab]

wow thanks for all the info guys!

[rocklandxjer]

ive never even heard of ProE. looks pretty nice, i like the stress analysis.

i love inventor though, have you done any work with it. its a pretty powerful program, and i think there is a stress analysis system worked into it, not sure though, ill have to fool around with it on monday.

[Captain Ron]

Unless you have an advanced degree is structures, along with 25 or more years provable in aerospace shell design, AND 15 years provable of parametric programming....

Keep your immature ProE speculation to your self.

What rot. GIGO...

--ron

[Captain Ron]

To all the folks out there that have access to ProE, SolidWorks, CATIA, stupid "Inventor", and sucks for you, SolidDesigner or whatever...

Just because you can enter a few dialog boxes in any given program does not make you any kind of informed person.

Nor, does it make you an engineer.

I eat you dumb asses for lunch 5 days a week on a professional basis, delivered by *professional* folks with a hell of a lot more experience in the commercial and aerospace industries than most of you will have in the next 20 years.

So if you are some 20 something college dropout with a copy of the latest, greatest, *software of the month*, via an "educational" copy, please, take it to Pirate, cause it ain't advanced tech to me just because you can post it. If you cannot do a simple 2D with dims, sticks to MS Paint. I, for one will get a lot more value out of it.

Thanks.

--ron

[rocklandxjer]

Hey sorry if i offended you by speaking about inventor.. i was just saying that its a decent program.
Also i dont claim to be an engineer, im only 17. I got a scholarship to RPI in troy and im going there for aero and propulsion systems engineering. I honestly would never make a claim that i am an engineer because i have taken a couple college senior and junior level classes at various schools and i can say that most of it was right over my head at this point.

i never claimed to be a master at anything, i just said that ive never heard of ProE, didnt even know what it was.

sorry if i offended you in any way by speaking of autocad and inventor...

[xuv-this]

hey ron, why don't you stop bashing and contribute some of your knowledge to the subject at hand?

[Ghost]

hey ron, why don't you stop bashing and contribute some of your knowledge to the subject at hand?
Sounds like a good sugestion to me!

[xuv-this]

hey rehab, i had the same problem with my cage/rear seat. the problem with the b hoop crossbracing is that either the front or rear passengers will have hardly any legroom. i like your idea of reversing the rear kicker, but it will interfere with the rear seatback.
here's mine:
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b397/realsuv/jeep/DCP00297.jpg

the front pass can still recline their seat, and 2 6" people can sit pretty comfortably in the back. but 3 adults in the back is not gonna be feasable with kickers. if you have to fit three in the back, i would forget the kickers and tube gusset the hell out of it.

[partsbill]

Pardon me for injecting a probable, somewhat stupid question in the middle of all the interesting design. Once all is said and done, the welds are finished and the seatbelts arein, how much protection are we looking at here? A slow rollover protect on a rocky trail ride, a high speed rollover off of a sand dune, or a crash on the highway? The body panels are going to be trashed , but the occupants are safe. Just wondered what the outcome protection was planned?

[jjvande]

To all the folks out there that have access to ProE, SolidWorks, CATIA, stupid "Inventor", and sucks for you, SolidDesigner or whatever...

Just because you can enter a few dialog boxes in any given program does not make you any kind of informed person.

Nor, does it make you an engineer.

I eat you dumb asses for lunch 5 days a week on a professional basis, delivered by *professional* folks with a hell of a lot more experience in the commercial and aerospace industries than most of you will have in the next 20 years.

So if you are some 20 something college dropout with a copy of the latest, greatest, *software of the month*, via an "educational" copy, please, take it to Pirate, cause it ain't advanced tech to me just because you can post it. If you cannot do a simple 2D with dims, sticks to MS Paint. I, for one will get a lot more value out of it.

Thanks.

--ron

sounds like someone's got sand in their you know what...


2D... i find that most "older" engineers like to stick to the 2D stuff while most younger ones get stepped on when starting with 3D... it all goes back to the slide rule and the old drafting style of design done on pen and paper from what i can tell.

you're correct that from a quantitative sense quick and dirty calcs like were posted don’t mean much. But, you can gain some insight on a design very fast with a simple 3D sketch and a run through ANSYS or similar.

no need to bash...

and this is coming from a young engineer, so what do i know

[rehab]

first off, yes im a sophomore studying civil and stuctural engineering. i have had some basic CAD classes but im not up to the major sturctural annaylis and statics, so i figured to convey my point more clearly i would scetch it since not everyone can read a 3d drawing with ease.

basically im looking for a design that will protect the passengers and ME in the event of a roll down a hill. im not expecting some major rocky cliff or a giant dune, just off camber floops. but it never hurts to engineer it in a way to maximize protection.

xuv-this:

do you have any more pics of that, its a very interesting design

oh yeah and ron, i appreciate your information, and its not everyone elses fault that your a freaking genious that has been engineering shit for 100 years. so please, if you have nothing useful to add, kindly stop with your rampage.

[xuv-this]

the cage is a modified essent. offrd. jeepspeed edition, tied into the chassis at 8 points. i can get more pics this weekend if you like.

sorry for the huge pics, but here's why you want triangles in that cage, tied into the chassis:
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b397/realsuv/jeep/DCP00299.jpg
just keep in mind, that if you flop it and the cage gives in a little with the body, you might have to cut/untweak the cage to untweak the body. just more emphasis on triangular rienforcement.

[Ghost]

just keep in mind, that if you flop it and the cage gives in a little with the body, you might have to cut/untweak the cage to untweak the body. just more emphasis on triangular rienforcement.
XJ's are disposable. I'm on my second one now. About to build this one with a cage.

[rehab]

the cage is a modified essent. offrd. jeepspeed edition, tied into the chassis at 8 points. i can get more pics this weekend if you like.

sorry for the huge pics, but here's why you want triangles in that cage, tied into the chassis:
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b397/realsuv/jeep/DCP00299.jpg
just keep in mind, that if you flop it and the cage gives in a little with the body, you might have to cut/untweak the cage to untweak the body. just more emphasis on triangular rienforcement.
yes but it looks a whole hell of a lot better than my buddies when he floped his doing about 5mph
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b298/88jeepcherokee/IMG_0196.jpg

[xuv-this]

he he that'l buff out. with a little bondo and new glass..:D

[themangeraaad]

That is an interesting cage design. Since there is some interesting stuff being talked about.. Is there any cage design out there yet for a 2dr XJ where rear seat access is maintained? I have come up with several plans. I am a jr in electrical/computer engineering, but I started out as a mechanical engineering student, so I picked up some courses before switching majors due to horrible mechanical professors. Anywho, I know triangulation, and I know about structural support and all, but is there any tried and true design for a cage like this? Something I could use as a starting point even? I mean, i cant afford to give up the rear seat yet, but I would like to get a cage in there. Any ideas?

[rehab]

That is an interesting cage design. Since there is some interesting stuff being talked about.. Is there any cage design out there yet for a 2dr XJ where rear seat access is maintained? I have come up with several plans. I am a jr in electrical/computer engineering, but I started out as a mechanical engineering student, so I picked up some courses before switching majors due to horrible mechanical professors. Anywho, I know triangulation, and I know about structural support and all, but is there any tried and true design for a cage like this? Something I could use as a starting point even? I mean, i cant afford to give up the rear seat yet, but I would like to get a cage in there. Any ideas?
have you checked EOR Online? they have a cage for the two door you could start from.

[Ghost]

That is an interesting cage design. Since there is some interesting stuff being talked about.. Is there any cage design out there yet for a 2dr XJ where rear seat access is maintained? I have come up with several plans. I am a jr in electrical/computer engineering, but I started out as a mechanical engineering student, so I picked up some courses before switching majors due to horrible mechanical professors. Anywho, I know triangulation, and I know about structural support and all, but is there any tried and true design for a cage like this? Something I could use as a starting point even? I mean, i cant afford to give up the rear seat yet, but I would like to get a cage in there. Any ideas?
I have twinn boys so I'm in the same boat. I have been kicking arroudn a removable cross bar. No desighns yet just ideas.

[themangeraaad]

I was thinking something with a lower cross bar, like several inches from the floor, or as high as it could be w/o killing the ability to get in and out. Then having another support from the center of that to a (reenforced) floor. Then have supports go from this center point on the floor up towards the top of the cage. Not necesarily all the way at the sides, but even just part way in, so it leaves enough room to get in and out, while providing some structural support until I decide to go all out and redo everything, that time w/o the back seats. And I hadn't checked EOR Online. Checking now. Thanks

[hadfield4wd]

What is EOR's website?

[rehab]

http://www.eoronline.com/

[hadfield4wd]

Thanks, I'll take a look