BART Police Officer Executes Hand-Cuffed Man?!

[SBrad001]

WTF?!

Seriously, WHAT THE CRAP?! Is this an execution because it sure looks like it. They hand-cuff the kid, and then this cop stands up and what looks like, calmly draws his gun and fires a round into this kid's BACK?!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKy-WSZMklc

[Coastie]

Wow......

[The Hard Struggler]

That is cold blooded. The cop should go to deathrow.

[igotanxj]

You can't even see whats going on??? He could have been reaching for something, the cops could have warned him before he took out his gun. With all the shouting and the grainy cell phone movie, you really can't see or hear anything going on FOR SURE besides that fact that he was shot.

[SBrad001]

You can't even see whats going on??? He could have been reaching for something, the cops could have warned him before he took out his gun. With all the shouting and the grainy cell phone movie, you really can't see or hear anything going on FOR SURE besides that fact that he was shot IN THE BACK.

Did you watch the same video? He shot him in the back AFTER they hand-cuffed him! IN THE BACK?!

[oo7ravisXJ]

That is unbelievable. I ride BART all the time and have never actually seen the BART police do really anything. I heard on the radio last night that the family plans to sue them in court for 23M. That cop deserves what ever he has coming to him and more.

[igotanxj]

Did you watch the same video? He shot him in the back AFTER they hand-cuffed him! IN THE BACK?!
They never said he was handcuffed. You can see his hands flailing all over the place before and after he was shot. Maybe he was grabbing a knife or something??? Who knows? I know it looks pretty bad, but we can't actually tell without being there. I'm not saying you guys are wrong and I'm right...just saying that we don't know. Maybe he will go to jail??

[oo7ravisXJ]

I know it looks pretty bad, but we can't actually tell without being there.

The people who were there seemed to be pretty convinced.

[ECKSJAY]

I saw a second shooter.

[SBrad001]

I saw a second shooter.


Was he on the grassy knoll?

[Big Kev]

They never said he was handcuffed. You can see his hands flailing all over the place before and after he was shot. Maybe he was grabbing a knife or something??? Who knows? I know it looks pretty bad, but we can't actually tell without being there. I'm not saying you guys are wrong and I'm right...just saying that we don't know. Maybe he will go to jail??

I agree with you. It is hard to tell what is going on, I don't think he was cuffed. It does look pretty bad though. Be interesting to see what happens.

[ECKSJAY]

Was he on the grassy knoll?

How'd you know?:eyes:

[Boatwrench]

Investigation isn't over.

Watch the video on the news last night and exclaimed "Holy Sh*T! they executed that guy!" Watch the video several times today at work with a couple of other boarding officers. It's inconclusive from the cell phone video taken from inside the train. Their reaction was it was his muscle memory, he went for the taser and grabbed the firearm instead. The victim also wasn't cuffed until after he was shot. Another lesson learned the hard way to do EXACTLY what the officer tells you, your not going to win.

Fruitvale Station is kinda No Man's Land.

[Coastie]

Investigation isn't over.

Watch the video on the news last night and exclaimed "Holy Sh*T! they executed that guy!" Watch the video several times today at work with a couple of other boarding officers. It's inconclusive from the cell phone video taken from inside the train. Their reaction was it was his muscle memory, he went for the taser and grabbed the firearm instead. The victim also wasn't cuffed until after he was shot. Another lesson learned the hard way to do EXACTLY what the officer tells you, your not going to win.

Fruitvale Station is kinda No Man's Land.

I always thought taser guns were holstered on the opposite side of your natural shooting hand? Every belt setup I can ever seen has been like this. So it it were muscle memory then he would have reached on his left side not his right...

[YELLAHEEP]

Yeah, too hard to tell so I can't imagine why anyone would start jumping to conclusions that this was an intentional act.

I didn't see the officer as "calmly" drawing his weapon - I see his hand move pretty quickly up to grab it, then he briefly fumbles with the holster safety and - to me - it looks like the gun pops off as he's drawn it and moving it forward into position. Plus, his partners are all around and below him and other than looking like they're trying to restrain him, they don't look too jazzed up either - before the shot. Just looks to me like that Officer was stepping out of the mix as his partners continued to restrain the guy and he may have thought he should draw his firearm for cover until he was restrained.

I'm almost of the opinion that this may end up being an accidental discharge....:dunno:

I just can't imagine popping a round that close to my partners unless the bad guy is going for a weapon - and I could actually see the weapon or reasonably believed he had one concealed.

And yeah, "muscle memory"...... if the officer was intending to deploy his taser and grabbed his firearm accidentally...... there's no excuse for that. Generally, department policy and certainly Taser Corp suggests that they be kept on the weak hand side or cross draw so that there is some measure of difference between deploying the Taser and a firearm. I don't see how the two could be confused anyway..... weight, grip, size are dramatically different...... and the Taser has a thumb safety lever/"on" switch - the majority of Cops carry Glocks or other firearms that don't have a mechanical thumb release safety...........:dunno: Hell, there's still some departments out there that still don't carry Tasers - the Taser may not even be part of the equasion here......

Regardless, there's gonna have to be some serious explaining on his part to justify it.

[SBrad001]

. . .Another lesson learned the hard way to do EXACTLY what the officer tells you, your not going to win.


So disobeying a police officer while two other police officers hold you down justifies being shot in the back? Or even shot at all?


The kid was unharmed and just before you see him on the floor, face down, you see him with his hands up in the air.

[bigalpha]

This is the article I read this morning about it: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/01/04/BA0R153LGU.DTL&tsp=1

[Darky]

I can barely even tell what's going on but it does indeed look bad for that cop.

[ECKSJAY]

So disobeying a police officer while two other police officers hold you down justifies being shot in the back? Or even shot at all?


The kid was unharmed and just before you see him on the floor, face down, you see him with his hands up in the air.

Dude, c'mon...I expected a LOT more from you. It's starting to sound like a Jester thread with the 'zOMG they just SHOT him for NO reason'. The FACTS are that you can NOT hear everything going on, you're listening to commentary from several feet away, and you can NOT see everything from the video angles. Please, use a little more sense than the overblown media hype.

For someone who doesn't like the 'machine', you sure seem trapped inside it. ;)

[bigalpha]

Dude, c'mon...I expected a LOT more from you. It's starting to sound like a Jester thread with the 'zOMG they just SHOT him for NO reason'. The FACTS are that you can NOT hear everything going on, you're listening to commentary from several feet away, and you can NOT see everything from the video angles. Please, use a little more sense than the overblown media hype.

For someone who doesn't like the 'machine', you sure seem trapped inside it. ;)

Let's assume that those two officers are holding him down and he's struggling for whatever reason. But, he's detained and the officers have control of him.

Then, he start yelling that he hates cops, or is going to kill a cop, or kill himself; THAT justifies shooting him?

[kdailey4315]

I'm almost of the opinion that this may end up being an accidental discharge....:dunno:



That's what I think also.

[ECKSJAY]

Let's assume that those two officers are holding him down and he's struggling for whatever reason. But, he's detained and the officers have control of him.

Then, he start yelling that he hates cops, or is going to kill a cop, or kill himself; THAT justifies shooting him?

You could play the 'what if' game until you're blue in the face. NONE of us were there, NONE of us saw or heard what ACTUALLY happened. There ARE many questions that need to be answered, but speculation at this point does nothing but get people worked up. :roll:

And Troy...firearms don't go of 'accidentally'. They discharge 'negligently'. ;) It's like saying that you smell alcohol on someone's breath vs. the odor of an alcoholic beverage, no? :)

[bigalpha]

You could play the 'what if' game until you're blue in the face. NONE of us were there, NONE of us saw or heard what ACTUALLY happened. There ARE many questions that need to be answered, but speculation at this point does nothing but get people worked up. :roll:

And Troy...firearms don't go of 'accidentally'. They discharge 'negligently'. ;) It's like saying that you smell alcohol on someone's breath vs. the odor of an alcoholic beverage, no? :)

I'm just trying to figure out what your view is. You seemed to think audio was pretty important in the police shooting in this case.

[besthaticouldo]

i thought it was hard to tell

however...he was shot in the back. two officers were on top of him...im curious to see the investigation report...

[ECKSJAY]

I'm just trying to figure out what your view is. You seemed to think audio was pretty important in the police shooting in this case.

Yeah it's just one of the senses. :)

And of course I think it's important. Did someone see something that they communicated? Another officer see something, hence the reason they pulled him out and an apparent struggle took place? Was there a weapon in his front that he was going for? Like I said...so many questions that NONE of us can answer because we weren't there. I just hope for that officer's sake the intent, means, and purpose were all there to justify the course of action taken.

[ECKSJAY]

however...he was shot in the back.

For the sake of argument... Bad guy is drawing a weapon from his waistband with intent to use it against your partner, who is on the other side of bad guy. Bad guy is facing away from you, but you can clearly see his weapon and that he's advancing toward your partner (or other innocent person, for that matter). Are you telling me you'd magically race around the guy and hope you get to the front so you can take a shot? Or do you do everything within your means to stop the armed assailant, even if it means shooting him in the back? :doh:

[bigalpha]

For the sake of argument... Bad guy is drawing a weapon from his waistband with intent to use it against your partner, who is on the other side of bad guy. Bad guy is facing away from you, but you can clearly see his weapon and that he's advancing toward your partner (or other innocent person, for that matter). Are you telling me you'd magically race around the guy and hope you get to the front so you can take a shot? Or do you do everything within your means to stop the armed assailant, even if it means shooting him in the back? :doh:

Yes, shoot him in the back. You can see he pulled the gun and is threatening someone with it.

However, when you have the man ON THE GROUND, ON HIS STOMACH, with at least one police officer on top, there's probably no need to shoot the man in the back.

[ECKSJAY]

Yes, shoot him in the back. You can see he pulled the gun and is threatening someone with it.

However, when you have the man ON THE GROUND, ON HIS STOMACH, with at least one police officer on top, there's probably no need to shoot the man in the back.

Take my above scenario and move it to the ground. Why does 'ground' change this for you? Again, we could keep playing 'what if', but it doesn't change what and how it happened. ;)

[kcjeep6]

For the sake of argument... Bad guy is drawing a weapon from his waistband with intent to use it against your partner, who is on the other side of bad guy. Bad guy is facing away from you, but you can clearly see his weapon and that he's advancing toward your partner (or other innocent person, for that matter). Are you telling me you'd magically race around the guy and hope you get to the front so you can take a shot? Or do you do everything within your means to stop the armed assailant, even if it means shooting him in the back? :doh:

ECKSJAY are you a cop?

[ECKSJAY]

ECKSJAY are you a cop?

Former MP, armed private security, and lots of private training. I like to think I'm fairly practiced and informed. :)

[bigalpha]

Take my above scenario and move it to the ground. Why does 'ground' change this for you? Again, we could keep playing 'what if', but it doesn't change what and how it happened. ;)

Because he wasn't reaching for a gun, he wasn't threatening the officers in a way to warrant deadly force. Yes, if he was laying on the ground and actually pulled a weapon and threatened the officers/bystanders it's warranted to shoot him.



Maybe we're not looking at the same video. This is what I'm watching; there are 3 angles. In one, you can clearly see the Office is like, "OMFG, WTF?"
http://www.ktvu.com/video/18406962/index.html

[ECKSJAY]

Because he wasn't reaching for a gun, he wasn't threatening the officers in a way to warrant deadly force. Yes, if he was laying on the ground and actually pulled a weapon and threatened the officers/bystanders it's warranted to shoot him. There wasn't a clear view on ANY of these videos to see that though.

Maybe we're not looking at the same video. This is what I'm watching; there are 3 angles. In one, you can clearly see the Office is like, "OMFG, WTF?"
http://www.ktvu.com/video/18406962/index.html

I hear shouting, I see a struggle, camera goes to outer space, back to the struggle, bang, and then I'm not seeing the officer's expression you're describing. I've watched this all a dozen times and I'm confused on your 'clearly' part, lol. I heard shouting, saw a struggle, and a shot was fired. :speepin: I saw no hands, I saw no weapons. :tv:

[bigalpha]

At the bottom there are other videos from different angles to watch.

[ECKSJAY]

At the bottom there are other videos from different angles to watch.

The only 'clear' things I see are that he was A) not handcuffed and B) upon being put on the ground, his right hand went to the ground and subsequently under his body. The rest is between the officers involved, the clown who resisted, and God. ;)

[Darky]

Because he wasn't reaching for a gun, he wasn't threatening the officers in a way to warrant deadly force. Yes, if he was laying on the ground and actually pulled a weapon and threatened the officers/bystanders it's warranted to shoot him.



Maybe we're not looking at the same video. This is what I'm watching; there are 3 angles. In one, you can clearly see the Office is like, "OMFG, WTF?"
http://www.ktvu.com/video/18406962/index.html
I've seen Karina Vargas' video and it doesn't show much.

What I saw from the main video is a lot of the ceiling, random space, a bunch of idiots who weren't helping the guy on the ground by constantly approaching the cops, one guy who threw something then some black chick saying they just shot him and cussing the cops out. On to the next video.

What I'm seeing here is the officer who fired the shot had a negligent discharge. He may have been reaching for a tazer and grabbed his gun, He may have meant to grab his gun but didn't mean to fire. However, in the second instance he was still wrong. In the Marine Corps, the basic rules of firearms safety are:
1.)Treat every weapon as if it is loaded.
2.)Never point the weapon at anything you do not intend to shoot.
3.)Keep you finger straight and off the trigger until you intend to fire.
4.)Keep the weapon on safe until you are ready to fire.

#1 wouldn't have helped in this case, #2 would've been fine as he did intend to fire if the suspect was a danger, #3 would've been the one he went against as you wouldn't intend to fire as you're pulling your gun out of the holster nor would you intend to fire with your partners all right there on him.

[ECKSJAY]

I've seen Karina Vargas' video and it doesn't show much.

What I saw from the main video is a lot of the ceiling, random space, a bunch of idiots who weren't helping the guy on the ground by constantly approaching the cops, one guy who threw something then some black chick saying they just shot him and cussing the cops out. On to the next video.
.

Check out the one from straight across (in front of) the group...where you see the kid sitting against the wall, facing camera. Watch when they pull him off the wall. Do you see his right hand up in the air? There isn't really anything useful after that part...but combine that with the one from his right, taken from inside the train. When they pull him away from the wall, match up when you see his hand in the air. It goes back down and they pull him away...then see if you notice his hand going under him. I combine this with the body language and intensity of the officers. I think he was either going for something or implying that he had something, which then got him shot. After watching them all again, that's what I see. I don't see a cop ruthlessly drawing his weapon and executing a young, handcuffed Father. ;) I see an unrestrained, dangerous struggle that was neutralized. Whether it was ultimately justified is up to the investigators.

[bigalpha]

Don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to say the cop executed that guy for no reason.

A few things stand out to me:
1. The cop who pulled his weapon took almost a full 2 seconds to pull it and squeeze the trigger.
2. The other cop, located at the victim's head, did not exhibit the same reaction as the other cop. This cop did not seem as though he felt his life was in danger as he did not rear back and pull his weapon either.

I also wouldn't classify this as a "struggle". They weren't wrestling the man trying to get him down, they were just trying to handcuff him (as it appears to me). It did not seem to me that he was trying to escape to cause harm to the officers or civilians.

Just my untrained .02.

[ECKSJAY]

Don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to say the cop executed that guy for no reason.

A few things stand out to me:
1. The cop who pulled his weapon took almost a full 2 seconds to pull it and squeeze the trigger.
2. The other cop, located at the victim's head, did not exhibit the same reaction as the other cop. This cop did not seem as though he felt his life was in danger as he did not rear back and pull his weapon either.

I also wouldn't classify this as a "struggle". They weren't wrestling the man trying to get him down, they were just trying to handcuff him (as it appears to me). It did not seem to me that he was trying to escape to cause harm to the officers or civilians.

Just my untrained .02.

Ever try steer wrestling? How about wrestling a steer with thumbs? Yeah man, those guys were wrangling that kid and fighting for his hands. If that dummy had sat still and kept his trap shut, I'm sure things woulda been sorted out and they wouldn't have to yank him from the wall to cuff and search him. I'm sure they were going for someone else and kept everyone detained until they got it sorted...but there's always a joker who smarts off and gets twisted up. The couple seconds to draw was also while leaning on a guy to restrain his legs. ;) Go find a guy on the street and wrestle him to the ground sometime. See if he fights back or just flattens out. Lemme know if it was easy or kinda difficult. :D:D:D

[bigalpha]

Never wrestled a steer.

I agree, that dude shoulda just sat there and not been a douche. If he was innocent, it'd been sorted out eventually. I'm also not saying that there wasn't a struggle and that it's not hard to detain a person who's fighting back.

What I am saying, though, is that I didn't see any reason for the officer to pull his weapon. If it was going that badly, they should have called one of the other 5 officers over to taze him. At no point did I see reason for the officer to intentionally shoot him.

[macgyvr]

I wasn't there...none of us where there...as was stated the video doesn't show anything clear...believe me when I say that there are things that happen when you are in the middle of a situation that a video may or may not capture...

i hate how conclusions are jumped to so fast...

I am certain that it will be investigated to the fullest but it won't happen over night.

mac 'tense, uncertain, and rapidly evolving' gyvr

[ECKSJAY]

What I am saying, though, is that I didn't see any reason for the officer to pull his weapon. If it was going that badly, they should have called one of the other 5 officers over to taze him. At no point did I see reason for the officer to intentionally shoot him.

We don't know. If the guy had a weapon, there was not going to be time to apply the Taser, especially if it was several feet away at the time. ;) We'll have to see what comes of the investigation.

I wasn't there...none of us where there...as was stated the video doesn't show anything clear...believe me when I say that there are things that happen when you are in the middle of a situation that a video may or may not capture...

i hate how conclusions are jumped to so fast...

I am certain that it will be investigated to the fullest but it won't happen over night.

mac 'tense, uncertain, and rapidly evolving' gyvr

I'm with ya mac.

[Coastie]

I think we can all agree the kid mad a bad choice by resisting the cops.

Once a group of illegals got out out of hand and myself and two young non rates restrained a full grown man without any problems. As he was fighting back using my sidearm as a means to an end was never even a option.

However since we could not hear the officers for all we know they were shouting that he had a weapon and the cop took what he thought was the safest way to subdue the man.

If the kid did really have a gun in the close proximity I might have mad the same choice.

[kcjeep6]

Ever try steer wrestling? How about wrestling a steer with thumbs? Yeah man, those guys were wrangling that kid and fighting for his hands. If that dummy had sat still and kept his trap shut, I'm sure things woulda been sorted out and they wouldn't have to yank him from the wall to cuff and search him. I'm sure they were going for someone else and kept everyone detained until they got it sorted...but there's always a joker who smarts off and gets twisted up. The couple seconds to draw was also while leaning on a guy to restrain his legs. ;) Go find a guy on the street and wrestle him to the ground sometime. See if he fights back or just flattens out. Lemme know if it was easy or kinda difficult. :D:D:D

Please remember this is the San Leandro Ca. USA and not a war zone. We have a Bill of Rights! We do not live in a police state. I have said it before the police in this country have become too militarized and like the present administration believes they are above the law. If you think you 2nd amendment rights will allow you to defend yourself from the Government watch the video again.
The Office screwed up in any other field of employment if you screwed up that bad you would be fire on the spot. Way is it the LEO’s get a paid vacation?

[ECKSJAY]

Please remember this is the San Leandro Ca. USA and not a war zone. We have a Bill of Rights! We do not live in a police state. I have said it before the police in this country have become too militarized and like the present administration believes they are above the law. If you think you 2nd amendment rights will allow you to defend yourself from the Government watch the video again.
The Office screwed up in any other field of employment if you screwed up that bad you would be fire on the spot. Way is it the LEO’s get a paid vacation?

What does this have to do with the video? :laugh2:

[Kittrell]

Please remember this is the San Leandro Ca. USA and not a war zone. We have a Bill of Rights! We do not live in a police state. I have said it before the police in this country have become too militarized...

That does nothing for your argument, since the military isn't really allowed to be the military anymore. Thats not really a giant leap for LEOs.

Way is it the LEO’s get a paid vacation?

Because they have to take them off active duty, until the investigation is done. But they aren't gonna pay them, even if they were in the right?

[Coastie]

Way is it the LEO’s get a paid vacation?


Because he has not been found guilty of anything yet....

[ECKSJAY]

lol, 'vacation'....he just shot a guy. I'm sure he's in talking to a therapist to help make sure he's not gonna flip out.

[ehall]

To me it looks like he did not have the safety engaged, and it went off in his hand.

[ECKSJAY]

To me it looks like he did not have the safety engaged, and it went off in his hand.

:roflmao: :yelclap:

[Freaky McPants]

The first time I watched the video, it looked like an execution. I watched it a few more times and personally, I can clearly see the surprise in all the Officers faces, especially the one who shot the perp. I think it is possible that it was an accidental shooting, but I think its more likely that the cop shot the guy on purpose, and that surprised look you see in his face is him realizing "Oh shat, I just screwed the pooch". This is all just my opinion, so dont anyone get too excited. We will have to wait and see what the outcome of the investigation is, but I think that the Officer in question should get charged with Negligent Homicide at the very least.

[buzzbombxj]

Its kinda scary as I bart about $11:40 worth every week. I almost went to the city that night, my family did, and went through that station maybe half an hour earlier. I went to chico to party :party1:

[Rockslut]

There is nothing conclusive in any of those videos other than dude resisting and a cop shooting dude. I agree with the accidental discharge theory.

Did anyone see or hear anything about dude having a weapon? No, so you cant assume he did or did not have anything. Doesnt matter what it looks like, what are the facts?

Cops go on admin leave during the investigation. If the shooting was determined to be justified then the officer should not lose pay.

[chrisgerman1983]

anyone who thinks this was an intentional "execution" is messed up in the head! i highly doubt a cop is gonna shoot someone in the back in front of hundreds of witnesses on purpose. im sure their was some negligence to some extent but if the cop got shot instead it would have barely made a ripple on the news.

[Boatwrench]

if the cop got shot instead it would have barely made a ripple on the news.

Maybe in BC, but here it's a full blown story also.

[Darky]

Maybe in BC, but here it's a full blown story also.
Nowhere near what it is when a cop shoots a perp.

[selarep]

wow... i was just on the bart getting some sh*t from a bart officer (or I think it was a bart officer) this last saturday (1-3-09).
Wow...
my .02, the cop really screwed up. excessive deadly force.
he's screwed. I've been in the military, done the cop thing, blah blah, the cop screwed up.

[Freaky McPants]

anyone who thinks this was an intentional "execution" is messed up in the head!

Ever consider the possibility that maybe the cop is messed up in the head? Just because they're cops doesent mean that there arent a few nut jobs that get by every once in a while.

[Ramsey]

Ever consider the possibility that maybe the cop is messed up in the head? Just because they're cops doesent mean that there arent a few nut jobs that get by every once in a while.
A good example HERE (http://www.naxja.org/forum/member.php?u=1954)

[Freaky McPants]

A good example HERE (http://www.naxja.org/forum/member.php?u=1954)
He's ex Military, of course he's crazy. At least according to civilian PD's. I work with a guy who tried to get out and become a cop. He had a very hard time with it, because if they hear you were in the military, they think you're too crazy to be a cop.

[Rockslut]

excessive deadly force.


As compared to less than excessive deadly force?

Is that when you kill them dead?

[PurpleCherokee]

1.)Treat every weapon as if it is loaded.
2.)Never point the weapon at anything you do not intend to shoot.
3.)Keep you finger straight and off the trigger until you intend to fire.
4.)Keep the weapon on safe until you are ready to fire.

So the marines train you to aim, take off the safety, and put your finger on the trigger just before you fire? Law enforcement is way different. A LEO will point their gun at somebody well before they intend on shooting them. Same thing with the finger on the trigger thing. When the gun comes up, the finger is straight and not on the trigger but as the situation comes closer and closer to rising to the level of deadly force, the finger is put on the trigger at the descretion of the officer, but doesn't mean they're gunna fire, simply that they're ready to fire. And since 90% of departments carry glocks, the safety thing isn't an issue because glocks don't have a thumb safety.

wow... i was just on the bart getting some sh*t from a bart officer (or I think it was a bart officer) this last saturday (1-3-09).
Wow...
my .02, the cop really screwed up. excessive deadly force.
he's screwed. I've been in the military, done the cop thing, blah blah, the cop screwed up.

"Done the cop thing"? "Blah blah"?

Your nonchalant attitude about police work and drastic over-simplification of a situation that you know very little about tells me that you probably don't know what the h*ll you're talkin about.

[8Mud]

Originally Posted by Darky View Post
1.)Treat every weapon as if it is loaded.
2.)Never point the weapon at anything you do not intend to shoot.
3.)Keep you finger straight and off the trigger until you intend to fire.
4.)Keep the weapon on safe until you are ready to fire.
So the marines train you to aim, take off the safety, and put your finger on the trigger just before you fire? Law enforcement is way different. A LEO will point their gun at somebody well before they intend on shooting them. Same thing with the finger on the trigger thing. When the gun comes up, the finger is straight and not on the trigger but as the situation comes closer and closer to rising to the level of deadly force, the finger is put on the trigger at the descretion of the officer, but doesn't mean they're gunna fire, simply that they're ready to fire. And since 90% of departments carry glocks, the safety thing isn't an issue because glocks don't have a thumb safety.

Quote:
Originally Posted by selarep View Post
wow... i was just on the bart getting some sh*t from a bart officer (or I think it was a bart officer) this last saturday (1-3-09).
Wow...
my .02, the cop really screwed up. excessive deadly force.
he's screwed. I've been in the military, done the cop thing, blah blah, the cop screwed up.
"Done the cop thing"? "Blah blah"?

Your nonchalant attitude about police work and drastic over-simplification of a situation that you know very little about tells me that you probably don't know what the h*ll you're talkin about.


I see Darky as a problem solver.
Selarep as concerned.
Üurple Cherokee as

Whatever actually happened, sure didn't work out well. The obvious solution is to pass a law forbidding camera use during an arrest, make it a felony, shoot them if they resist.

[PurpleCherokee]

As compared to less than excessive deadly force?

Is that when you kill them dead?

Lol, exactly.

[8Mud]

Deadly force is when you use a deadly weapon (military jargon), excessive deadly force could be when you stick it up against somebodies backbone and pull the trigger.
People forget, the object isn't to kill somebody, it's to stop them from doing whatever they are doing. Even in the military, a serious causality can be worth more than a corpse, it uses up manpower to deal with the casualty.
I guess for law enforcement, a corpse could be more beneficial, as they can't testify against you.
It's not what really happened that counts anyway, it's how you write it up that counts.
People also forget, that typically, gunshot wounds aren't fatal, between 12 and 20% of the time they are, mostly depending on the availability of a decent medical facility. Or in other words, for every one that dies, 5-7 make it after being shot. Though my numbers are old school and your chances are likely better now. Lastly, you mostly only hear about the fatalities, for every fatality you hear about, there were likely 5-7 shot by an LEO somewhere. Maybe 2 dozen beaten severely, another 4 dozen bruised, maybe a hundred left with a chit taste in there mouths and bruised egos.

[SBrad001]

So the marines train you to aim, take off the safety, and put your finger on the trigger just before you fire? Law enforcement is way different. A LEO will point their gun at somebody well before they intend on shooting them. Same thing with the finger on the trigger thing. When the gun comes up, the finger is straight and not on the trigger but as the situation comes closer and closer to rising to the level of deadly force, the finger is put on the trigger at the descretion of the officer, but doesn't mean they're gunna fire, simply that they're ready to fire. And since 90% of departments carry glocks, the safety thing isn't an issue because glocks don't have a thumb safety.



"Done the cop thing"? "Blah blah"?

Your nonchalant attitude about police work and drastic over-simplification of a situation that you know very little about tells me that you probably don't know what the h*ll you're talkin about.



I'm just curious, is there a topic that you're not an expert on?

Since you obviously know the complexities of law enforcement and how to tell someone who's a bullshitter about from someone who's not, we shall know differ to you on all matters that might be questionable.

Anyway, your over simplification of how and why a lawman might draw his weapon neglected 'less lethal' weapons and training. Darky's post is just as relevant and true for lawmen as it is for Marines, maybe even more so since lawmen have the option of 'less than lethal'.

And you're uncalled for and brazen punk card that you pulled on selarep totally exposes YOUR own inadequacies in life. I'm sure you know less about the subject than selarep. And no, having a relative in law enforcement does not make YOU an expert on the behavior and protocols of lawmen and law enforcement agencies.


Oh! Yeah! Almost forgot, "NOMINATED".

[wolfpackjeeper]

I was wondering about the 90% of departments carrying glocks comment, source? Or did you make it up on the spot to cover the comment about a thumb safety? A lot do sure, but In the 4 places I have lived a glock has yet to be the standard sidearm. Sigs are common, Berettas are increasingly common, and I am starting to see M&P's more around my current residence.

What Darky siad is exactly right, but you intentionally made it seem like 4 separate steps that no one in their right mind would use. These were the same steps the Sheriffs office in my home town taught, and they are usually employed in a fluid motion.

[Boatwrench]

Or did you make it up on the spot to cover the comment about a thumb safety?


87% of statistics are made up on the spot. It's true, I read it in a Dilbert strip.

[Darky]

Purple:Marines is capitalized.
Finger straight and off the trigger until you intend to fire isn't even a Marine rule, that came from civilian law enforcement. A kid was shot by a sheriff in Maricopa (I'm pretty sure) county AZ because he had his finger on the trigger when he pushed the kid against the car. Studies were done and there is no delay between first shot fired with finger already on trigger and first shot fired with finger straight and off the trigger. I believe it was the FBI who did the studies and now that has been implemented nationwide. I don't have the sources at hand as this was passed on to me by Officer John Teachout in Driver's Ed back in HS.

[5spd_xj]

Purple:Marines is capitalized.


ah, ya beat me to it :compwork: A close friend of mine is in the Marines, I made the mistake once of typing "marines"...he made a point of correcting me as well heh.

And, overall, I agree with ECKSJAY, I think that you can speculate and make all kinds of possible scenarios, but the truth of the matter is, we need to wait it out and see how the investigation goes. I really hope everything works out for the best...

[FlexdXJ]

Looks like Nurple is going for tard of the year 2 years running guys! :roflmao:

[ECKSJAY]

Which training academy taught you that? When I was 15 as a Police Explorer Scout learning to shoot pistols, they taught us in Col. Cooper's method...exactly as Darky explained. It sounds to me like your LEO experience comes from Hollywood TV drama shows. :) I can't speak for every agency or officer, but I've never seen an officer (with whom I was working, anyway) actually put a bead on someone to 'cover' them, nor did I see a finger on the trigger. The muzzle is pointed just off the target and finger off the trigger the entire time. It's a barely measurable amount of time to put finger on trigger and sights on target if necessary.

So the marines train you to aim, take off the safety, and put your finger on the trigger just before you fire? Law enforcement is way different. A LEO will point their gun at somebody well before they intend on shooting them. Same thing with the finger on the trigger thing. When the gun comes up, the finger is straight and not on the trigger but as the situation comes closer and closer to rising to the level of deadly force, the finger is put on the trigger at the descretion of the officer, but doesn't mean they're gunna fire, simply that they're ready to fire.

[selarep]

Jesus People, relax.
We are all just a big pool of opinions at this point.

And yes, my *oops* on using "excessive" and "deadly force" in the same sentence, as there is no such thing. I should have worded it as unnecessary use of deadly force (from what we can tell at this point).

Purple:
As for what I'm talking about, I'm not an expert in much and I'll be the 1st to admit to it. I have some experience in the matter and I'm given my right to express freely, am I not? I simplified it because I did not want to go into a long ass rant about something that I am, like I said, not an expert on.
All I said was he screwed up and a brief explanation of my little experience.

People... chill.
(but let the bashing on purple continue!)

[Darky]

So the marines train you to aim, take off the safety, and put your finger on the trigger just before you fire? Law enforcement is way different. A LEO will point their gun at somebody well before they intend on shooting them. Same thing with the finger on the trigger thing. When the gun comes up, the finger is straight and not on the trigger but as the situation comes closer and closer to rising to the level of deadly force, the finger is put on the trigger at the descretion of the officer, but doesn't mean they're gunna fire, simply that they're ready to fire. And since 90% of departments carry glocks, the safety thing isn't an issue because glocks don't have a thumb safety.



"Done the cop thing"? "Blah blah"?

Your nonchalant attitude about police work and drastic over-simplification of a situation that you know very little about tells me that you probably don't know what the h*ll you're talkin about.
P.S. As I was trained, drawing your weapon is the first step of deadly force. Largely due to the fact that you don't draw unless you intend on using it.

[Ronbo]

It sounds to me like your LEO experience comes from Hollywood TV drama shows.

http://www.dvdtown.com/images/displayimage.php?id=3794


TJ Hooker ready to fire !

Situation rising to the level of deadly force!

I'm simply ready to fire !

lol

[ECKSJAY]

http://www.dvdtown.com/images/displayimage.php?id=3794


TJ Hooker ready to fire !

Situation rising to the level of deadly force!

I'm simply ready to fire !

lol

I just woke the baby up from laughing so hard. :clap::clap::clap:

[PurpleCherokee]

You don't draw a gun on someone just before you fire. You draw long before you think you'll need to use it (following the force continuum) so it's there WHEN you need to use it. So darky's comment about not drawing unless you plan on using it is completely false. Cops draw their weapons without firing MANY times more than they draw and actually end up firing. That's pretty obvious.

All you guys that seem to get off on picking on people regardless of whether or not they're right or wrong, just because you've decided that you don't like them, and because you've gathered enough other retards that will go along with you, really really REALLY need to get a life and stop acting like a bunch of little boys that feel big from picking on someone via an INTERNET FORUM. End of story, it's ridiculous. Get a life. And I'm not talking to all of you... just some of you ;)

[Boatwrench]

http://www.dvdtown.com/images/displayimage.php?id=3794


Heather Locklear sure was a hottie.

[Boatwrench]

http://www.dvdtown.com/images/displayimage.php?id=3794




Heather Locklear sure was a hottie. So hot deserves a double post.

[wolfpackjeeper]

You don't draw a gun on someone just before you fire. You draw long before you think you'll need to use it (following the force continuum) so it's there WHEN you need to use it. So darky's comment about not drawing unless you plan on using it is completely false. Cops draw their weapons without firing MANY times more than they draw and actually end up firing. That's pretty obvious.


Part of the problem is that you are both saying the same thing in a way. Darky is saying that you do not draw your weapon till you are ready to fire, he is not talking about quick drawing or waiting to draw until it is the last possible second. It is more of a mental association, You do not take the weapon out of the holster until you are ready to put holes in something, regardless of if you actually fire. You were mentally set and ready to fire if Necessary. And as soon as possible a cop will place his sidearm back in the holster. This has nothing to do with Marine vs Cop training, everybody trains this way. If you get range instruction it carries over to the technique that you generally do not load the weapon till ready to fire.

The other part of the problem is in the way you are typing your contradiction to his (and to be honest EVERY other shooter who has had any civil or military firearm training, I had USAF training and we train a lot of civilian PDs) comments. You use words like "You draw long before you think you'll need to use it" which seems to imply that you would be walking around with it in your hand, just in case. USUALLY, they will just have one hand on the holster, and possibly unclasp it. For a police officer to draw his weapon it is because he senses an IMMENANT threat. Immenant in this context carries the same weight as the word Immediatly does to an aviator. "Cops draw their weapons without firing MANY times more than they draw and actually end up firing. That's pretty obvious" as a comment you seem to feel validates your point, but from outside your side of the argument just kinda is a "well duh" kind of statement. Of course they do, but it does not really relate to how fast or when he would draw his weapon.

[FlexdXJ]

All you guys that seem to get off on picking on people regardless of whether or not they're right or wrong, just because you've decided that you don't like them, and because you've gathered enough other retards that will go along with you, really really REALLY need to get a life and stop acting like a bunch of little boys that feel big from picking on someone via an INTERNET FORUM. End of story, it's ridiculous. Get a life. And I'm not talking to all of you... just some of you ;)


You know maybe if you stop coming up with Jackass comments people won't give you a hard time. You get on here and contradict EVERYONE'S opinions and act like you know more than everyone. maybe you need to really really REALLY get a life. Its hard not to give you hell when you post up responses like this. If you spent more time on the trail instead of on your computer we would REALLY appreciate it!

I'm not talking to everyone..... just you! :conceited

[Darky]

If you sense a need or danger, you draw. You don't draw just for the hell of it. I was put on gate guard while on Okinawa as extra security for a planned protest (what the hell's the point of planning and notifying the people you'll be protesting?) against the American presence on the island. We were told to keep our hands on the pistol grip of our rifles but look like we're just resting our hands there in order to look non-threatening but be able to raise our weapon quickly. We did not stand there with our rifles shouldered, even when the people got a little too rowdy and crossed the invisible line they were told not to cross. The force continuum goes from body language (authoritarian stance) to verbal (Halt! Stop what you are doing!) to physical (taking someone down/restraining them) to deadly force (defined as any action that may rightfully inflict mortal injuries or maim someone - note that deadly force doesn't necessarily result in death, nor does it necessarily involve shooting/stabbing someone. A butt-stroke to the head is considered deadly force). There's varying levels to each stage, but that's the over-simplified version.
So darky's comment about not drawing unless you plan on using it is completely false If you feel the need to have your weapon ready, you better damn well plan on using it. Doesn't mean you will, but you should be planning on using it if necessary when you unholster/unsling your weapon.

[1xfloppy]

You don't draw a gun on someone just before you fire. You draw long before you think you'll need to use it (following the force continuum) so it's there WHEN you need to use it. So darky's comment about not drawing unless you plan on using it is completely false. Cops draw their weapons without firing MANY times more than they draw and actually end up firing. That's pretty obvious.


they have the intent to shoot if neccessary...your statement seems to be the false one here...have you actually had any weapons handling training?

[Boatwrench]

Fruitvale Station (where shooting occured) closed due to rioting by protestors. One Oakland officer hurt, one cruiser damaged, trash cans, paper racks and dumpsters set on fire. One major intersection blocked as protestors moved across Oakland forcing closing of two other stations.

[igotanxj]

Fruitvale Station (where shooting occured) closed due to rioting by protestors. One Oakland officer hurt, one cruiser damaged, trash cans, paper racks and dumpsters set on fire. One major intersection blocked as protestors moved across Oakland forcing closing of two other stations.
daaaaang

[kdailey4315]

Fruitvale Station (where shooting occured) closed due to rioting by protestors. One Oakland officer hurt, one cruiser damaged, trash cans, paper racks and dumpsters set on fire. One major intersection blocked as protestors moved across Oakland forcing closing of two other stations.

I heard that on the radio this morning. What exactly are they protesting? The cop resigned he admitted it was an accidental shooting. I'm sure the family is going to sue for a shit load of money. It's horrible what happen but it does not appear that BART is covering anything up. I don't get the protest.

[ECKSJAY]

Fruitvale Station (where shooting occured) closed due to rioting by protestors. One Oakland officer hurt, one cruiser damaged, trash cans, paper racks and dumpsters set on fire. One major intersection blocked as protestors moved across Oakland forcing closing of two other stations.

Animals. :rolleyes:

[playwithit]

Animals. :rolleyes:

I love it. They call them protesters as the destroy property and hurt people.

[5spd_xj]

have you actually had any weapons handling training?

x2. PurpleCherokee, I'm not saying you're right, wrong, ridiculous, whatever. Just curious as to how much your opinion/view on this is worth, in my personal spectrum of credibility :)

Thanks

[PurpleCherokee]

FWIW, yes I have. But regardless, I'm right :D

I think that the word "intent" was misused which led to a lot of miscommunication. Intent is "an aim or purpose" while the purpose of drawing a gun on somebody isn't always to shoot them, most of the time it is to be ready to shoot them.

I'm sorry that I've apparently offended and hurt some people so badly by seeming like a know it all or a "jack*ss", wipe your tears and get over it. Geez. Sometimes things don't translate very well over text when you have a certain sarcastic personality. Reminds me of someone's signature, I can't remember who but it says somethin like "warning, this post may contain humor". Some of you need to take a HUGE chill pill. You may get along with someone very well face to face that you've thought was a "jack*ss" by reading their posts. So be smart enough to realize that there's a LOT to be lost in translation on an internet forum.

[5spd_xj]

Glad to know you're right! And thanks for letting me know, now that I've been handed this blatant statement, I won't bother thinking for myself. :rolleyes: Thanks so much for explaining everything to the rest of the forum! :lecture::worship: What a wonderful guy! :wave:

[PurpleCherokee]

5spd calm down, I'm not sure how it can be explained. Most of it is situational so there's no blanket statment that can explain all the different circumstances.

You don't draw a gun on someone just before you fire. You draw long before you think you'll need to use it (following the force continuum) so it's there WHEN you need to use it.

The main reason you draw well before you fire is because the vast majority of the time, a situation doesn't rise immediately to deadly force. Meaning that other than in situations when someone immediately pulls and points a gun and/or opens fire or pulls a knife and charges within a fairly close proximity of an officer, the force continuum escalates gradually or "fluidly" to deadly force. An example of when the force continuum DOESN'T "fluidly" escalate: an officer approaches a subject on a traffic stop. The officer starts to search the subject and the subject resists by turning away from the officer. The officer then pins or tries to restrain the subject. A fight ensues. The suspect swings at the officer so in response, the officer deploys his ASP and strikes the suspect. During the struggle, the subject breaks away and gets some distance on the officer, reaches in his pants, pulls a gun and points it at the officer. THEN the officer can open fire. Notice that the use of force escalated "fluidly" UNTILL the gun is brandished by the suspect, where the whole gunpoint but not firing thing is skipped and deadly force is used. Simply keeping a suspect at gunpoint is not deadly force. And a lot of it depends on how fast a situation escalates and whether or not a suspect simply pulls a gun, or points a gun at someone. However, in situations where the suspect has already brandished a gun but isn't pointing it at anyone, (like in a domestic where the police enter the house and there's the suspect standing there holding a gun, but not placing anyone in immediate danger) the officer would keep the suspect at gunpoint but not shoot. A lot of it is discretionary and depend on the circumstances of course but those are some common general examples.

Hope that helps.

[Ray H]

The cop that pulled the trigger has now resigned because of public threats.
Thats a start in the right direction. .

[Ray H]

5spd calm down, I'm not sure how it can be explained. Most of it is situational so there's no blanket statment that can explain all the different circumstances.



The main reason you draw well before you fire is because the vast majority of the time, a situation doesn't rise immediately to deadly force. Meaning that other than in situations when someone immediately pulls and points a gun and/or opens fire or pulls a knife and charges within a fairly close proximity of an officer, the force continuum escalates gradually or "fluidly" to deadly force. An example of when the force continuum DOESN'T "fluidly" escalate: an officer approaches a subject on a traffic stop. The officer starts to search the subject and the subject resists by turning away from the officer. The officer then pins or tries to restrain the subject. A fight ensues. The suspect swings at the officer so in response, the officer deploys his ASP and strikes the suspect. During the struggle, the subject breaks away and gets some distance on the officer, reaches in his pants, pulls a gun and points it at the officer. THEN the officer can open fire. Notice that the use of force escalated "fluidly" UNTILL the gun is brandished by the suspect, where the whole gunpoint but not firing thing is skipped and deadly force is used. Simply keeping a suspect at gunpoint is not deadly force. And a lot of it depends on how fast a situation escalates and whether or not a suspect simply pulls a gun, or points a gun at someone. However, in situations where the suspect has already brandished a gun but isn't pointing it at anyone, (like in a domestic where the police enter the house and there's the suspect standing there holding a gun, but not placing anyone in immediate danger) the officer would keep the suspect at gunpoint but not shoot. A lot of it is discretionary and depend on the circumstances of course but those are some common general examples.

Hope that helps.

Whatever happened to the good old days when a LEO was supposed to try to lower the level of force and not escalate it. At some point the training must have changed.

[YELLAHEEP]

Whatever happened to the good old days when a LEO was supposed to try to lower the level of force and not escalate it. At some point the training must have changed.

Yeah, because all cops have received the same training and will all react the exact same way in all situations. Yeah, the training must have changed across the nation - cops are just robots and they all receive software updates - they can't deviate from the prime directive. Uh oh...... I just checked and I didn't get the latest download..... I better go escalate something so I can conform.


You're an ignoramus. :rolleyes:

[Ray H]

You're an ignoramus.

Because I have a differing opinion????

How long have you been a cop?

[PurpleCherokee]

I'm not really sure what he meant either :dunno:

I think maybe he's refering to the cops who escalate the situation by being antagonistic, intentionally or unintentionally. A good cop can calm a situation, to a point, but not all situations by any means. Sometimes sh*t's gunna hit the fan and there's nothin ANYONE can do about it.

[YELLAHEEP]

Because I have a differing opinion????

How long have you been a cop?


That's not a differing opinion...... that's a blanket statement that all cops receive the same training and it's inferred that they all will act the same way in all situations. MY training didn't change. But if I perceive a threat from someone taking an aggressive stance or plunging his hands into his belt-line, I'm going to act accordingly...... and accordingly won't mean I'm going to extend my empty hands out and say "Now hold on sir, do not hit me" or "Now hold on there sir, put the weapon down." I'm gonna point a gun or taser at the guy until he complies. Seems reasonable enough to assume that folks know a cop when they see the uniform and to take aggressive action toward a cop isn't going to be a smart decision - in any realm of thought.

Oh, and it's 18 years now.

[Ray H]

I'm not really sure what he meant either :dunno:

I think maybe he's refering to the cops who escalate the situation by being antagonistic, intentionally or unintentionally. A good cop can calm a situation, to a point, but not all situations by any means. Sometimes sh*t's gunna hit the fan and there's nothin ANYONE can do about it.

Im talking about escalation of force. Years ago, in my experience, the goal of a police officer's training was to difuse a situation without injuries or using the least amount of force neccessary. The last few years Ive noticed a trend towards the police actually taking force to the next level. Is this something that is being taught now?

[Ray H]

That's not a differing opinion...... that's a blanket statement that all cops receive the same training and it's inferred that they all will act the same way in all situations. MY training didn't change. But if I perceive a threat from someone taking an aggressive stance or plunging his hands into his belt-line, I'm going to act accordingly...... and accordingly won't mean I'm going to extend my empty hands out and say "Now hold on sir, do not hit me" or "Now hold on there sir, put the weapon down." I'm gonna point a gun or taser at the guy until he complies. Seems reasonable enough to assume that folks know a cop when they see the uniform and to take aggressive action toward a cop isn't going to be a smart decision - in any realm of thought.

Oh, and it's 18 years now.

Ok, well youve been at it awhile. Have you noticed that the newer guys seem to take things to the next level a little too quickly?
A situation that changed my view on things that happened to me a few years ago. I had a cop point his gun at me. Let me say, it doesnt matter what the guy behind the gun does for a living, when someone points a gun at you, its your life verses his. When theres gun play, its not cops and robbers anymore, its human verses human. He pointed his gun at me because I informed him I had a gun in my glove box. I did this as a point of information for him and not as a threat, I was sitting upright in my drivers seat with both hands on the wheel, and I was calm. Something in his training told him that he should aim a gun at me. I grew up pro police in a police family and I was a deputy but that was a life changing moment for me. When I grew up and was trained, it was the officers job to de-escalete the situation. That doesnt seem the case now.

[YELLAHEEP]

Im talking about escalation of force. Years ago, in my experience, the goal of a police officer's training was to difuse a situation without injuries or using the least amount of force neccessary. The last few years Ive noticed a trend towards the police actually taking force to the next level. Is this is something that is being tought now?

Doesn't sound like you have a good grasp of the concept. You're more grounded on the verbal de-escalation. All cops receive training on verbal de-escalation...... but words aren't going to always keep bad things from happening. In a perfect world, EVERYONE would simply want to stop and talk things through - but history dictates otherwise.

Cops are always trained to first use verbal communication. There's always been good training for cops to de-escalate all situations, never to escalate the situation...... unless the subject's actions dictate otherwise. But cops have never been trained to take a punch, stab or bullet from anyone posing such a threat. Taking actions just above that being taken by the subject IS de-escalation. He grabs, I apply a control hold or pressure point application and cuff him, he punches or attempts a punch, I tase him, he pulls a weapon....... I put him down. Same applies if the subject is using this kind of force on anyone OTHER than me as well. The end result is de-escalation.

[Coastie]

The cop that pulled the trigger has now resigned because of public threats.
Thats a start in the right direction. .


So you're advocating violence as a a way to get things done?

[Ray H]

So you're advocating violence as a a way to get things done?


In a round about way, I guess I am.

[8Mud]

Whatever happened to the good old days when a LEO was supposed to try to lower the level of force and not escalate it. At some point the training must have changed.

The system is mostly broken and in my opinion has been for 30 years or more. When you get some stand off and perspective, it becomes easier to see.
Sooner or later the system (they) are going to antagonize enough people the system just isn't going to function anymore.
Human rights are for the abused and oppressed in other countries.
I'd like to see some statistics, if the growth of law enforcement parallels the population growth in general or is it growing at a faster pace than the population in general. True statistics, not massaged statistics.
I've heard the percentage of the population incarcerated has never been higher and there seems to be no shortage of criminals.
Law enforcement seems to be a growth industry, in all likelihood for many reasons. Pissing on or pissing off the population with increasing frequency may be one reason, if you run short of criminals grow your own.

[Ray H]

Cops are always trained to first use verbal communication. There's always been good training for cops to de-escalate all situations, never to escalate the situation...... unless the subject's actions dictate otherwise. But cops have never been trained to take a punch, stab or bullet from anyone posing such a threat. Taking actions just above that being taken by the subject IS de-escalation. He grabs, I apply a control hold or pressure point application and cuff him, he punches or attempts a punch, I tase him, he pulls a weapon....... I put him down. Same applies if the subject is using this kind of force on anyone OTHER than me as well. The end result is de-escalation.

I think my grasp is in line with yours. I agree with what you describe above. The problem is that isnt the trend Im seeing today. What Im seeing, and have experienced is someone turns away and they get tazed, I mention a firearm and Im drawn on, someone fights and swings and they are shot. this isnt the "escalation" you are describing. Thats why I asked the question.

[8Mud]

Doesn't sound like you have a good grasp of the concept. You're more grounded on the verbal de-escalation. All cops receive training on verbal de-escalation...... but words aren't going to always keep bad things from happening. In a perfect world, EVERYONE would simply want to stop and talk things through - but history dictates otherwise.

Cops are always trained to first use verbal communication. There's always been good training for cops to de-escalate all situations, never to escalate the situation...... unless the subject's actions dictate otherwise. But cops have never been trained to take a punch, stab or bullet from anyone posing such a threat. Taking actions just above that being taken by the subject IS de-escalation. He grabs, I apply a control hold or pressure point application and cuff him, he punches or attempts a punch, I tase him, he pulls a weapon....... I put him down. Same applies if the subject is using this kind of force on anyone OTHER than me as well. The end result is de-escalation.

Calling someone an ignoramus seems like a reasonable way to deescalate the situation. (_*_)

[PurpleCherokee]

Calling someone an ignoramus seems like a reasonable way to deescalate the situation. (_*_)

Bingo.

[8Mud]

Bingo.

My apologies, I must be full of chit Ürple agrees with me. :)
Want to be my bud Ürple? Stay on the other side of any discussion I participate in, pleeease.

[YELLAHEEP]

The problem is that isnt the trend Im seeing today. What Im seeing, and have experienced is someone turns away and they get tazed, I mention a firearm and Im drawn on, someone fights and swings and they are shot. this isnt the "escalation" you are describing. Thats why I asked the question.

Seeing? - I know the media LOVES to show it's version of what happened.

Experienced? - Are you saying you've personally been involved in a resisting, a tasing, a shooting to where you can claim experience? Just asking, not challenging you here......

I can certainly make this claim and the general public isn't the same either as they used to be either.

For the record, I have used deadly force. 7/3/99........ changed my whole perspective on how I was going to conduct myself when confronted with an aggressive person.

[YELLAHEEP]

Calling someone an ignoramus seems like a reasonable way to deescalate the situation. (_*_)

LOL! Nope, just an opinion..... :D

[MT Mike]

TOTY, would you shut up?!? No one cares about your misinformed ramblings. Go away.

[PurpleCherokee]

My apologies, I must be full of chit Ürple agrees with me. :)
Want to be my bud Ürple? Stay on the other side of any discussion I participate in, pleeease.

:doh:

You don't know what you're talking about. I know it hurts, but it's ok for someone to know more than you about a particular subject. And you're showing your ignorance by labeling someone as being "full of chit" for no reason.

[ECKSJAY]

:doh:

You don't know what you're talking about. I know it hurts, but it's ok for someone to know more than you about a particular subject. And you're showing your ignorance by labeling someone as being "full of chit" for no reason.

I'm going to bet you remind him of his wife, too. :D I do, apparently. :shhh:

[Boatwrench]

Seems reasonable enough to assume that folks know a cop when they see the uniform and to take aggressive action toward a cop isn't going to be a smart decision - in any realm of thought.

Well stated point.

but about the robot comments...and all being the same...Yes everyone is an individual and reacts differently in all situations. What about POST? Doesn't that negate your response?

[Boatwrench]

This morning's total:

No deaths. Two officers & one reporter injured enough to seek medical. Two cars burned, many more vandalized. One dumpster fire, store front glass broken no reports of Looter Dude present.

Round Two begins at 0900 PST. The professional anarchists (those are the young white people wearing masks) are calling for more protests this morning at the Federal Building.

[FlexdXJ]

Give me a D, Give me an O, Give me a U, Give me a C, give me an H, Give me an E! whats that spell...................PURPLE!!!!!!! :D

[msrorysddad]

I enjoy the way the conversation has evolved into a "can you see how the cops have become more aggressive" deal. Look at the lack of respect "most" people show for others in general and law enforcement in general. I will give you my .02$ walk through most neighborhoods and tell me of your experience. I'm sure the youth will be helpful and kind. We as a nation have raised more than a generation of folks that believe fighting the "cops" is the right thing to do. Someone on this thread stated they thought violence was a good way to get things done. The lack of respect some teach the youth is the problem. When a police officer fears for his life because of society, well... I cannot see what happened well enough to tell the officers intent. However, I will state if we ever get in a confrontation, and I feel threatened I will, beat, shoot, stab, till I feel less threatened. The "protests" (read riots) prove out my point, we'll riot!!!No respect for others, I say dismantle the government, disband all LEO and let's get on with the fun.

[Ray H]

Seeing? - I know the media LOVES to show it's version of what happened. .
The media shows video. The one in question was shot by a private citizen. As for bias, Im not sure where they stand, I think they just want the business.

Experienced? - Are you saying you've personally been involved in a resisting, a tasing, a shooting to where you can claim experience? Just asking, not challenging you here...... .See post 99. It wouldve been a shooting if his finger twitched, too close for me.

I can certainly make this claim and the general public isn't the same either as they used to be either. .
Agreed. Maybe they are just reacting to the public. Maybe the only thing that has really changed is that there are cameras everywhere now.
I know my stepfather (retired cop) and many of his friends used to carry drop guns sealed in a plastic bag, number ground off and prints cleaned off, because "mistakes happen". Back in the day a drop gun wouldve found its way into the kid's hand and there would be no story.
I know its off topic but Im not a militant, cop hater. I react to cops the same way I react to other people. I treat them the way they treat me, sometimes its with respect, sometimes its not. They dont get special privilage because of the job they do.
You immediately called me an ignoramus. Thats fine, I didnt say anything because there is nothing I can do about it over the internet. Had you done that for no reason during a traffic stop, I wouldve given it right back at you and who knows what wouldve happened after that, I would probably ended up in jail or worse. I mean the nerve of a civilian talking to YOU like that, I need to learn a lesson. Honestly, I mean honestly, tell me thats not what wouldve happened?

[Ray H]

II feel threatened I will, beat, shoot, stab, till I feel less threatened. The "protests" (read riots) prove out my point, we'll riot!!!No respect for others, I say dismantle the government, disband all LEO and let's get on with the fun.

You said it right there. If you feel threatened, you will resort to violence. You dont think that may be the reason for the riots?
Ive said it a couple of times, when a person (or group) feels threatened they react, they defend, they strike out, it doesnt matter who is wearing a badge.

[98XJROKS]

I didn't hear them say he was cuffed, or even see the incident for that matter? I heard the shot and the video moving a lot.

[msrorysddad]

Ray, thank you. You just made my point. He called you a name simply for expressing a POV. The respect thing goes both ways, the young cops are raised the same way as the young criminals. I had a young cop talk trash to me and told him, I'd be more than happy to join him in a round of fisticuffs. His older partner told me, he would like to see nothing more than me slapping his young apprentice around. I was concerned, why had the older officer not instilled in the younger some respect? I was told by a wise man once (cop) you will either respect me or fear me, I do not care which, however, I demand one. I came to the conclusion then, to remedy the problem you can't always shout the other guy's a weenie and win. The lack of respect we have taught our youth is coming back to haunt us. I will quote the wise Reverend Wright, "America's chickens have come home to roost"

[msrorysddad]

Ray I stated if we're in a CONFRONTATION and I feel threatened. So the rioters were in a confrontation with who? You do not involve yourself in a confrontation unless you understand the gravity of the situation, unless you just want to be injured. The point is, we have raised a (more than) generation of people that truly believe it's always the other guys fault, and that they can do as they please and mommy or daddy, or a court appointed lawyer will "help" them out of the situation. This thread proves it out fairly well, read some of the posts, the cop was at fault, if it weren't for the actions of the individuals, I doubt the cops would have been there. It's a tragedy that a person died, I will allow the courts to solve that issue. However, I will tell you this, again, if it were not for the actions of the individuals involved the cops would not have been there. So, lets lay the blame at the feet of those responsible. The one's that brought the police there in the first place.

[Ray H]

A riot is a confrontation if the cops show up.

By your reasoning, if the cops show up, somebody should die? I know, you didnt mean that.
Heres the deal, ask Yella. When the cops show, they are to take charge of the situation. When they have someone in custody or detained, they are responsible for what happens to them. They are responsible for that persons welfare. Thats a huge responsibility. No matter how you slice it, the kid was shoot because one or more of the cops didnt do his job well enough. Thats really the black and white of it. What happened to get to that point doesnt matter. The question is did the cop perform the way he was trained or didnt he.

[msrorysddad]

a riot is a confrontation if the cops show up? I need some of your dope. By my reasoning? Dude you need to put the bong down and get some fresh air. Where do you find that in my post? The same morons that treat the police like that would never treat a crip, blood, ms13 member with the same lack of respect, or fear. You cannot tell what is happening by the videos. However you can clearly see that people are behaving exactly as society has taught them. F*ck the police. If the individuals involved would have comported themselves with a bit of respect for others this situation would never have occurred. Did the police walk up and shoot this young man, or was a series of events started by their actions responsible for the incident? We live our lives everyday with choices, you need to place blame where it lies, with the individuals whom caused the issue at hand. I stated I will allow the courts to decide the "shooting issue". However any reasonable individual can see, the problem would never have happened without the instigation of the "young people". The police responded to a call, the individuals in question were in the wrong, instead of the criminal being blamed, it once again becomes the police are the bad guys. It's never the offenders fault, always the cops. I'm a crook, bar none, I've been arrested more times than I can count, and yes have been attacked by the 5oh. However, I understand the consequences of my actions brought about the events, I was responsible, not the police. The outlaw trail is rough, and sometimes short.

[Ray H]

This is actually what you said
"if it were not for the actions of the individuals involved the cops would not have been there. So, lets lay the blame at the feet of those responsible. The one's that brought the police there in the first place."
I know you didnt say" If the cops show, someone must die". I stated that as an exaggeration of what you wrote.
All Im saying is that once the cops show and they have detained or arrested or secured everyone, they take on the responsibility for what happens to those people. The circumstances that brought them together dont matter. What matters is that the cops were there, they had control of everyone and someone was killed while in their care.

[ECKSJAY]

What matters is that the cops were there, they had control of everyone and someone was killed while in their care.

Oops.

[Ray H]

Oops.

What police explorer post were you in?

I was in the Shively KY police Explorers (cant remember the number though) Im thinking 352 or something.

[ECKSJAY]

What police explorer post were you in?

I was in the Shively KY police Explorers (cant remember the number though) Im thinking 352 or something.

Tukwila, WA PD Post #2999

I was Chief for a couple of years. :wave:

[Ray H]

I was in from age 15 to 18 when I went in the Marine Corps. When I left I was a Lt.

[msrorysddad]

What my point is/was/will be people are so quick to blame the police/teacher/authority figure. It's never the fault of the individual involved. I learned a long time ago, don't jack with a dude with a gun, and damn sure don't jack with a dude with a gun and a badge. It falls back to responsibility, are you silly enough to fight with a guy with a gun and then act suprised if you get shot? Right wrong or indifferent, the guy with the gun wins the SHORT TERM CONFRONTATION, I do not care that the family will sue, the young man is still dead, who caused the officer to draw his weapon? Was the officer just wandering around pointing his weapon at random individuals? OR, was the young man involved doing something that caused the officer to draw his weapon? Once again I state, I'm no angel, I love it when people blame the cops, "man that a-hole cop arrested me for weed possession!" "that a-hole wrote me a speeding ticket" WERE you in possession of an illegal substance? Were you speeding? Oh, what is your argument? The consequences of the young man's actions are thus, you do as the man says or you receive a beat down(my first choice), or you get mechanically ventilated.

[msrorysddad]

Oh, by the bye, police explorers you are both soooolastara

[Coastie]

In a round about way, I guess I am.


Well then that cop sure got the kid to stop resisting.

[ECKSJAY]

Oh, by the bye, police explorers you are both soooolastara

At least my community service was voluntary and not court-ordered. Gimme a little credit for that one. :pig:

[msrorysddad]

I love you guys, even the gay ones. Did you were like little cop outfits with the Angus Young shorts? If so I bet ya'll were so cute.

[ECKSJAY]

I love you guys, even the gay ones. Did you were like little cop outfits with the Angus Young shorts? If so I bet ya'll were so cute.

Did we 'wear' uniforms? Yeah, we had uniforms...but no shorts. I listened to AC/DC, does that count? :looser:

[msrorysddad]

I don't know, I was hopin for the shorts, I guess it's close enough, rock on

[Ray H]

Oh, by the bye, police explorers you are both soooolastara

I know, I went through H.S. hearing that same thing.
Never thought I would still be hearing it more than 25 years later though. A little disappointing.;)

[msrorysddad]

its disappointing to still hear it, or is it disappointing to have never thought you would still be hearing it?

[Jester99]

There should be more riots like this.

[ECKSJAY]

There should be more riots like this.

It'd give a lot of people a lot of targets to shoot at. :thumbup:

[Ray H]

Anyone hear the latest on this? Now the word is the cop mistakenly pulled his gun, he thought he had his Tazer. Im not sure how he could make that mistake but thats what they are saying.

[bjoehandley]

Anyone hear the latest on this? Now the word is the cop mistakenly pulled his gun, he thought he had his Tazer. Im not sure how he could make that mistake but thats what they are saying.

Was the situation even bad enough to make the tazer neccessary?




Haven't had a chance to watch the video yet.

[ECKSJAY]

Was the situation even bad enough to make the tazer neccessary?
I'd say so. Scuffling and resisting officers trying to cuff him...with others sitting around...could have turned into a huge brawl quickly.

Haven't had a chance to watch the video yet.
This would all make more sense if you did. :D

[Ray H]

Was the situation even bad enough to make the tazer neccessary?
.

I dont think it was but that's a matter of opinion. Yours and others may vary.

[kcjeep6]

The Videos have been gone through frame by frame the kid was hand-Cuffed at the time he was shoot.

[bjoehandley]

The Videos have been gone through frame by frame the kid was hand-Cuffed at the time he was shoot.

If that was the case, he shouldn't have needed to zap him with the tazer, were these guys even being difficult before the arrests started? That part of the video wasn't too clear (no matter what the cell phone girl said).

[8Mud]

I always ask myself what the original crime was, way too many of these things start out small and escalate into catastrophe.
In effect he was summarily executed, be it by accident or on purpose, what was his original crime?
I really can picture some guy getting a nut clamped in his pants leg, jerking around a little and dieing for it.
I worked in a training command for a number of years, in the military. Many of these guys were fresh off the streets and half wild. Stuff would happen on a regular basis. I never found it necessary to shoot anybody. Actually the unofficial, official policy was thump them if you have to, but make sure they are fit for duty the next morning.

[bjoehandley]

Good point 8Mud, what were they arrested for, was it the fight they were being accused of?

[Darky]

I always ask myself what the original crime was, way too many of these things start out small and escalate into catastrophe.
In effect he was summarily executed, be it by accident or on purpose, what was his original crime?
I really can picture some guy getting a nut clamped in his pants leg, jerking around a little and dieing for it.
I worked in a training command for a number of years, in the military. Many of these guys were fresh off the streets and half wild. Stuff would happen on a regular basis. I never found it necessary to shoot anybody. Actually the unofficial, official policy was thump them if you have to, but make sure they are fit for duty the next morning.
No matter the original crime, the guy's actions likely caused the escalation that brought about his untimely and unnecessary demise.

[ECKSJAY]

No matter the original crime, the guy's actions likely caused the escalation that brought about his untimely and unnecessary demise.

Obstruction and resisting arrest get tacked on real easy in situations like that. ;)

[bjoehandley]

Obstruction and resisting arrest get tacked on real easy in situations like that. ;)

Ah, you mean like the guy down the street from me who got arreted for assaulting an officer when he yelled at said officer for beating the crap out of a guy that ran from another officer in a neighboring town?

[JeepDawg]

Many of the comments here are disturbing:

1) Let's not forget; an UNARMED man was shot in the back. I've seen little respect for the dead in this thread (i.e., references to the victim as a "jerk" or something else derogatory). There has been no concern for the man's family or loved ones, or the loss of life at such a young age. Just imagine that you are the father and mother burying your child who was killed unneccesarily. Even those who are protesting what they believe to be injustice are demonized here.

2) There has been given much deference to the officer's innoncence, and little-to-none given to the victim's. SHOULD NOT INNONCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY APPLY TO THE DEAD AS WELL?

3) I dare say that the victim - Oscar Grant - cooperated with the police more than the BART officer who killed him - Mehserle. In the 12 days since the killing, the officer has RESIGNED and REFUSED to cooperate with investigators. Oscar Grant, by all accounts so far, was at least sitting against the wall with his hands raised.

[SeansBlueXJ]

I am not going to say the shooting was justified or right, but I will adress some of the attitude tward the victim. I will say this, which is my personal opinion, but had he been totally innocent, totally complient with the police he would never have gotten shot.

Now that's not to say he deserved to be shot, but his resistant actions led to the situation that followed. If a cop tells me to do something it's "yes sir, no sir" which ever he wants and does what he says.

[JeepDawg]

I am not going to say the shooting was justified or right, but I will adress some of the attitude tward the victim. I will say this, which is my personal opinion, but had he been totally innocent, totally complient with the police he would never have gotten shot.

Now that's not to say he deserved to be shot, but his resistant actions led to the situation that followed. If a cop tells me to do something it's "yes sir, no sir" which ever he wants and does what he says.

So innocent/compliant people never get shot, killed, or brutalized by police? I will ignore the sheer naivete of that statement......and just say that is historically inaccurate. Perhaps it might be more appropriate to have informed opinions.

1) March 7, 2006 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006). Joseph Erin Hamley, a mentally disabled (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Developmental_disability) man, was shot and killed after being mistaken for a fugitive by state trooper (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_police) Larry Norman. Norman later pleaded guilty to negligent homicide (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negligent_homicide) and the Hamley estate accepted a $1 million legal settlement from the state.

2) January 4, 2004 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004). Timothy Stansbury (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_Stansbury), a 19-year old New York City (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City) teenager, was shot and killed by New York City Police Department (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City_Police_Department) Officer Richard S. Neri Jr. Neri’s partner pulled open a rooftop door so that Neri, gun drawn, could scan for drug suspects. Stansbury was coming up the stairs with a pile of CDs in his arms, intending on using the roof as a shortcut to go to a party in the adjacent building. Neri responded with one shot.

3) June-July 2000 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000). A string of incidents of police misconduct (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_misconduct) by a group of four Oakland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oakland,_California) PD officers known as "the Riders" came to light. [/URL] 119 people pressed civil rights (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cases_of_police_brutality#cite_note-27) lawsuits for unlawful beatings and detention, ultimately settling for $11 million with an agreement that the Oakland Police Department would implement significant reforms. Although all of the police officers involved were fired, three were later acquitted of criminal charges while one fled to [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexico"]Mexico (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cases_of_police_brutality#cite_note-28) to avoid prosecution.

4) October 2, 1999 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999). Darren Varley (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darren_Varley), a 26-year old truck driver, was shot to death in a cell at a local Royal Canadian Mounted Police (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Canadian_Mounted_Police) holding cell. The Officer, Constable Michael Ferguson, a 19-year veteran was convicted in a 3rd trial of manslaughter and ordered to a 4-year prison term.

5) August 1997 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1997). Abner Louima (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abner_Louima) was sexually abused by New York City police officers. A number of officers were convicted in the case.

6) October 12, 1996 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1996). Javier Ovando (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Javier_Ovando) was shot and paralyzed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paralysis) by LAPD (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Los_Angeles_Police_Department) Officer Rafael Pérez (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rafael_P%C3%A9rez_%28police_officer%29) and his partner Nino Durden (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nino_Durden). The two officers planted a gun on the unarmed man and testified that Ovando shot first. The truth was revealed in 1999 as part of the Rampart investigation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rampart_Scandal), and in the largest police misconduct settlement in city history, Javier Ovando was awarded $15 million in November 2000 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000).

[ECKSJAY]

NYPD, Oakland, LAPD, Canadians, Arkansas...all fine examples of the modern world. :roflmao:

[JeepDawg]

:huh:

[SBrad001]

:huh:

I think ECKJAY was pointing out that using those law enforcement agencies as examples of typical law enforcement agencies is laughable. It's kind of stupid to say that all law enforcement agencies and lawmen are the same because of the actions of a few that have broken the laws that they were sworn to uphold. Should they be held to a higher standard? Yes, but that doesn't mean that those that are sworn to protect and serve aren't still human. There's always going to be bad apples.

[beakie]

NYPD, Oakland, LAPD, Canadians, Arkansas...all fine examples of the modern world. :roflmao:


I'll take getting pulled over, arrested, warned, talked too, whatever by one of my guys before I ever even ask one of the others on that list for directions.

Too often its shoot first, ask questions later. Personal protection is one thing, but its too easy for a cop to justify shooting someone nowadays.

I can't watch the vid here, but from reading, this is a tragedy.

[Coastie]

Here is a update on the cop, he was arrested on suspicion of murder.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/01/13/BAM615A08A.DTL

[kcjeep6]

Here is what the DA has to say

During an 11 a.m. press conference Alameda Count District Attorney Tom Orloff told reporters, "Murder charges were filed because at this point, what I feel the evidence indicates, is an unlawful killing done by an intentional act. And, from the evidence we have there's nothing that mitigates that to something lower than a murder."

One thing that gets me is the cost to tax payers for one mans actions. BART will have no choice but to give the family 25 million, the cost for all the police at the protest and riot (more to come) Cost of the investigation, The CA GA and the FBI are involved.
By the time it is over and done it will cost us 75 million or more.

[XJonny]

well it looks like dude(cop) was fleeing (s/p?)from investigators and officers arrested him in Nevada.

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't leaving the State a no no???? lol

[kcjeep6]

"Sources said Mehserle had gone to Nevada because he feared for his safety after death threats were made against him".

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/01/14/BAJE15A6O2.DTL

[bjoehandley]

Guys beat me to it
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090114/ap_on_re_us/train_station_shooting

[Boatwrench]

Protests in Oakland broke down into violence again tonight.

The former cop surrendered to sheriffs in Nevada after warrant issued and waived extradition proceedings. He went to Nevada for the safety of his family. His parents house had a bomb scare this afternoon with a suspicious package left on the front porch.

[xcm]

all i gotta say, is XXXX that! that shit is unnacceptable...

you got a handfull of cops, and a couple kids, your telling me theres no way to pacify people w/o murder?

i honestly look down upon anyone who can watch that video, and not feel sympathy for a young kid who is now dead cause a cop couldnt restrain himself.
what is wrong w/ people? theres clear video of him calmly and cooly shooting the dude in the back, did you watch it?

[xcm]

btw, way to go DA, i know that guys life aint worth 75million to you, but must you absolutely focus on the money? the dude was straight up murdered by one of YOUR pigs...

[xcm]

and to those sympathizing over his 'negligent discharge'... theres a reason normal sane people dont pull guns on people... accidents happen.

maybe you shouldnt be pulling your gun out ever time a black guy talks to you.... did they even find a weapon? OF COURSE, that doesnt mean he wasnt 'reaching for one', and therfore deserve it...

OR maybe you knucklehead cop-types need anger managment, OR more training before WE, as tax payers, PAY YOU to protect us....


if i mis-used tools at my job, there would be consequences, are cops special?

so, those of you on the police's side, whats a good punishment? should the guy walk free? manslaughter? what?

[ECKSJAY]

Lighten up, Francis. 3 'RARR' posts in a row. Who needs anger management? :D

[xcm]

excuse me for taking the murder of a fellow american as 'serious'
we all paid for that bullet...
the fsking cop-defending crap is what pisses me off...
just say it was an accident, and the guy didnt deserve it, dont call the deceased an asshole who deserved it... hes allready dead...

[xcm]

so, those of you on the police's side, whats a good punishment? should the guy walk free? manslaughter? what?


answer the question ecksjay and yellaheep... should he walk free?
i want you two to admit more than one mistake was made, and its not entirely the departeds fault...
and it will never happen

[xcm]

heres a 6th, just to point out how good of a vent posting on a forum is.... as opposed to murdering urban youth
silly rednecks!

[splendidyj]

XCM, you are a tool. Grow up and get a grip on reality. You must be as stupid as you seem if you think the cop killed that guy on purpose. Come out of your meth lab and give the police their dues.
I bet you can bad talk the cops until your passive bitch ass friends smoke all their pot, but once you need them I hope they leave you abandon you like you have them.
Go pound sand you Nancy.

[8Mud]

XCM, you are a tool. Grow up and get a grip on reality. You must be as stupid as you seem if you think the cop killed that guy on purpose. Come out of your meth lab and give the police their dues.
I bet you can bad talk the cops until your passive bitch ass friends smoke all their pot, but once you need them I hope they leave you abandon you like you have them.
Go pound sand you Nancy.

On purpose, by accident, I still want to know what the kid allegedley did in the first place. Why the cop stopped him at all, maybe it was walking while black.
Anybody not outraged by the summary executing of a 22 year old (on purpose or by accident) is a little deficient in the empathy department, one of the qualifiers for being a sociopath.
And by the way, you are the one who sounds like he forgot to just say no.
I personally don't see the need for 1 cop for every 300 people in the US. In my experience they do more to you, than for you anyway.

[bigalpha]

I recall that there was a fight on that platform and BART arrived to break it up. I think he was involved in the fight?

[ehall]

Anybody not outraged by the summary executing of a 22 year old (on purpose or by accident) is a little deficient in the empathy department, one of the qualifiers for being a sociopath.
do you get "outraged" by every murder?

[8Mud]

do you get "outraged" by every murder?

If your asking if I'm totally objective, I'd have to say no. We are all a product of our experiences, there is bound to be some bias.
Young people dieing unnecessarily does upset me. A guy about the same age as the kid that got shot, that worked for me, fell off his skateboard. hit his head on the curb and died, that also upset me. If he was pushed, I'd likely get more upset.

[ehall]

so you don't get outraged by every murder or death

and yet you seem befuddled that most of us are not outraged over this particular death, even to the point of suggesting that we're a bunch of borderline psycopaths

[SBrad001]

so you don't get outraged by every murder or death

and yet you seem befuddled that most of us are not outraged over this particular death, even to the point of suggesting that we're a bunch of borderline psycopaths

Oh just stop. This is such a pathetic attempt at calling out 8Mud for hypocrisy.

You don't have to be outraged at every single death or murder to see that this (for what ever reason) is an abuse of power. And yes, we should be outraged when someone in a position of authority abuse that power and authority.

Regardless, of what that young man did that evening, it did not warrant being shot and killed.

[Kittrell]

Reading through here, I do not have the time to edit the cussing in every flippin' post. Knock it off, you can still get your point across without cussing at people.

[ECKSJAY]

Reading through here, I do not have the time to edit the cussing in every flippin' post. Knock it off, you can still get your point across without cussing at people.

So you're saying you don't have time to do your job?

:wave:



j/k :D

[bigalpha]

As long as it's not profanity for the sake of profanity, the profanity can be considered in context and left alone.

[ehall]

You don't have to be outraged at every single death or murder to see that this (for what ever reason) is an abuse of power.
Oh just stop. This is such a pathetic attempt at crypto-anarchy bullshit.

To me it looks like accidental discharge, which is regrettable but not something to get outraged over. Calling it murder or abuse of power is crybaby retarded.

[ehall]

You don't have to be outraged at every single death or murder to see that this (for what ever reason) is an abuse of power.
Oh just stop. This is such a pathetic attempt at crypto-anarchy posturing.

To me it looks like accidental discharge, which is regrettable but not something to get outraged over. Calling it murder or abuse of power is crybaby retarded.

[ECKSJAY]

Oh just stop. This is such a pathetic attempt at crypto-anarchy bullshit.

To me it looks like accidental discharge, which is regrettable but not something to get outraged over. Calling it murder or abuse of power is crybaby retarded.

Oh just stop. This is such a pathetic attempt at crypto-anarchy posturing.

To me it looks like accidental discharge, which is regrettable but not something to get outraged over. Calling it murder or abuse of power is crybaby retarded.

Which one did you mean? :D

[ehall]

I saw the request to stop cussing

[SBrad001]

. . . crypto-anarchy . . . .


Nice word there. Take you long to come up with that one?

Just go back to your trailer, and rage against those evil liberals and your life will be back in order.

You're absolutely right, the kid surely deserved it. All those kids deserve it. And lack of training for that police officer led to this alleged accidental discharge on your part (even though he's been charged with 1st degree murder), is nothing to get upset over. It's all just crypto anarchy bullshit anyway! Hell, it don't matter if all them damned kids get shot by under trained cops. They deserve what ever they get! Maybe they should just move into the White House with Obama. . . he'll take care of them. Damned liberals.

[ehall]

You're absolutely right, the kid surely deserved it.
Hey look everybody, Brad propped up a strawman so he could knock it over! BRAVE BRAVE BRAD

[SBrad001]

Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. . . .

Whatever.

Aren't you missing your Rush show?

[ehall]

Aren't you missing your Rush show?

ROFL once again you evade actual arguments by propping up your own invented argument for the glory of knocking it over

glory to brad and his brave strawman army

[ECKSJAY]

Here's a picture of people who care:

[SBrad001]

ROFL once again you evade actual arguments by propping up your own invented argument for the glory of knocking it over

glory to brad and his brave strawman army

What argument? You mean the one where you posture that 8mud is hypocritical for implying that the shooting of that young man was outrageous?

Or was it your argument that anyone who disagrees with you is a crypto-anarchist?

Whatever.

Go and rage against your perceived inferiors!

[SBrad001]

Here's a picture of people who care:

I like that picture. Can you make me a copy?

[ECKSJAY]

I like that picture. Can you make me a copy?

Sorry, I hold creative license. My work is not free. :rof:

[8Mud]

so you don't get outraged by every murder or death

and yet you seem befuddled that most of us are not outraged over this particular death, even to the point of suggesting that we're a bunch of borderline psycopaths
My youngest son is 22, same age as the kid that got shot and yes he occasionally comes home with some black and blue marks from fighting. He occasionally drinks too much and puts his mouth in motion before putting his brain in gear.
I can empathize.
I also knew a cop who killed a young girl, DWI and committed suicide. Yes Cops hurt also.
IMO the direction of law enforcement is broken and a change of direction is needed.
What? Fifty Cops were shot and killed last year, 200 citizens. About ten years worth here, with about a quarter of the population. And seriously, I don't see any great difference in the people here and the people there.
I'm far from a liberal, but I'm also for fixing something that often seems just not to work well at all.
Mellow out some, smoke a cigarette. :)

[SBrad001]

Sorry, I hold creative license. My work is not free. :rof:

Aw! Come on. I'll let you play with my 'Barbie'. . . .

[ehall]

ROFL the population is NOT the same in central germany as it is in Oakland

[8Mud]

ROFL the population is NOT the same in central germany as it is in Oakland
I lived in Los Gatos for awhile, I really don't notice all that much difference.

[SBrad001]

ROFL the population is NOT the same in central germany as it is in Oakland

Have you ever even left the trailer park? Maybe you should go looking for that burrowing owl up in the tree in your front yard.

The more you travel the more you realize that a city is a city is a city and the people that live said cities are are more alike than different.

[ECKSJAY]

Have you ever even left the trailer park? Maybe you should go looking for that burrowing owl up in the tree in your front yard.

Jumpin' Jesus on a pogo stick!

Do you have any idea what the queers are doing to our soil?

[SBrad001]

Jumpin' Jesus on a pogo stick!

Do you have any idea what the queers are doing to our soil?

I first became aware of what the queers are doing to the soil, about 10 years ago, the summer my oldest boy
Bill Jr. died. :D

I like you ECKJAY. You're not like all the other people here on NAXJA. :D

[Boatwrench]

Last nights "mostly peaceful protest that unravelled towards the end" resulted in 19 arrests. Broken windows on at least four store fronts and smashed windshields on at least two cars. Oakland had over 100 murders in 2008 most young black men. It has become increasing hard to have sympathy for young people who have demonstrated they have no respect for each other's lives let alone society.

Oscar Grant, the 22yo that was shot and killed had been released from jail less than 100 days prior. He had a history of irresponsible behavior. Drug charges, assault with a deadly weapon, I don't know but I've heard both. Was he on his way to turning his life around? There is no way of knowing now that he's dead. Was he directly involved in the fight on the BART train or a victim of wrong place at the wrong time? That will come out during the trial.

What will also probably come out in trail and will have far reaching impacts on the workforce of this country is the labor issue. The police officer (can't spell his name) was on MANDATORY overtime while his wife was in labor with their 1st child. You don't think that was a stressor or would have some bearing on his mindset? Then part of one of the videos shows as the police officers on the platform are starting to establish control of the crowd 3-5 more young men approach with the thug shuffle. The officers were outnumbered again heightening the officers stress level.


Will the cop get a change of venue for the trail? Can he get a fair trail? i would hope so.

[Boatwrench]

The more you travel the more you realize that a city is a city is a city and the people that live said cities are are more alike than different.

Ummm...NO they are not and I travel extensively.

[ehall]

Have you ever even left the trailer park?
Seriously man, you need to break the strawman crutch. All you're doing is demonstrating your prejudices.

[ehall]

I lived in Los Gatos for awhile, I really don't notice all that much difference.

Then you should know that Los Gatos is not Oakland

Christ, Los Gatos is one of the wealthiest burbs on the peninsula...

[SBrad001]

Seriously man, you need to break the strawman crutch. All you're doing is demonstrating your prejudices.

Sure, I'm prejudice. I judge people on how they look, act and what they say. I'll never say otherwise. So what?

[SBrad001]

Ummm...NO they are not and I travel extensively.

Disagreement. I've seen the same social problem in every city (and yes I've been outside of North America more than once) I've been to, maybe that's just me.

[ehall]

Disagreement. I've seen the same social problem in every city (and yes I've been outside of North America more than once) I've been to, maybe that's just me.

Well we already know you live according to your prejudices, so it makes sense that you would think ~Detroit and ~Luxembourg have the same problems

[buzzbombxj]

To me it looks like negligent discharge, which is regrettable but not something to get outraged over. Calling it murder or abuse of power is crybaby retarded.

Fixed it for you.

The gun didnt shoot itself at the unarmed handcuffed man on the ground, The bart cop had to pull the trigger.

[8Mud]

Then you should know that Los Gatos is not Oakland

Christ, Los Gatos is one of the wealthiest burbs on the peninsula...
I was in Oakland daily, kind of reminded me of the West Valley, definitely not Watts. Los Gatos is also tiny and not fenced.
If you look for trouble in most any metropolitan area or even the Burbs you'll likely find it.

[SBrad001]

Well we already know you live according to your prejudices.


ROTFL! And you don't?! Bwahahahaa!

[8Mud]

Well we already know you live according to your prejudices, so it makes sense that you would think ~Detroit and ~Luxembourg have the same problems
Take a trip to Antwerp or Hamburg, got everything Oakland has or Detroit, still has fewer Police shootings, at or from.
I was actually in Luxemburg with a motorcycle gang, bar fight, Police showed up, nobody got shot. The cops were actually pretty nice about the whole thing.

[Boatwrench]

Disagreement. I've seen the same social problem in every city (and yes I've been outside of North America more than once) I've been to, maybe that's just me.

Ok we disagree on this point. That's what makes the world interesting.

[SBrad001]

Ok we disagree on this point. That's what makes the world interesting.


Sure does. :)

[ehall]

Ok we disagree on this point. That's what makes the world interesting.
well it also means you listen to Limbaugh all day in the same trailer park you grew up in [/brad]

[SBrad001]

well it also means you listen to Limbaugh all day in the same trailer park you grew up in . . . .

Nah, just you.

[Boatwrench]

well it also means you listen to Limbaugh all day in the same trailer park you grew up in [/brad]

:rof: :rof: :rof:

You OBVIOUSLY have never read my posts in the super dooper election zone.

:laugh: :yap: :laugh: :yap: :laugh:

[Darky]

Many of the comments here are disturbing:

1) Let's not forget; an UNARMED man was shot in the back. I've seen little respect for the dead in this thread (i.e., references to the victim as a "jerk" or something else derogatory). There has been no concern for the man's family or loved ones, or the loss of life at such a young age. Just imagine that you are the father and mother burying your child who was killed unneccesarily. Even those who are protesting what they believe to be injustice are demonized here.
I think pretty much everyone here has agreed that it was an unnecessary shooting. The protesters should be looked at as criminal because they are. They aren't protesting, they're rioting. They're destroying the property of people who had nothing to do with the shooting. A protest would be to march on city hall, to picket the station the officer was from, not to flip cars and start fires.
How about the cop's poor family? Because of his negligent/wrong/malicious (however you want to look at it) actions, now his family has to live in fear and there will be no settlement, no money for them (not that they deserve any, but then I don't believe the victim's family deserves $25mil either, can't really put a price tag on a man's life, but if forced, I would say it's a more fair proposition to figure approximately what he would have earned over a specified time.)

[Darky]

As long as it's not profanity for the sake of profanity, the profanity can be considered in context and left alone.
Profanity is against the rules on the open forums, "in context" or not.

[Darky]

Last nights "mostly peaceful protest that unravelled towards the end" resulted in 19 arrests. Broken windows on at least four store fronts and smashed windshields on at least two cars. Oakland had over 100 murders in 2008 most young black men. It has become increasing hard to have sympathy for young people who have demonstrated they have no respect for each other's lives let alone society.

Oscar Grant, the 22yo that was shot and killed had been released from jail less than 100 days prior. He had a history of irresponsible behavior. Drug charges, assault with a deadly weapon, I don't know but I've heard both. Was he on his way to turning his life around? There is no way of knowing now that he's dead. Was he directly involved in the fight on the BART train or a victim of wrong place at the wrong time? That will come out during the trial.

What will also probably come out in trail and will have far reaching impacts on the workforce of this country is the labor issue. The police officer (can't spell his name) was on MANDATORY overtime while his wife was in labor with their 1st child. You don't think that was a stressor or would have some bearing on his mindset? Then part of one of the videos shows as the police officers on the platform are starting to establish control of the crowd 3-5 more young men approach with the thug shuffle. The officers were outnumbered again heightening the officers stress level.


Will the cop get a change of venue for the trail? Can he get a fair trail? i would hope so.
Intelligence rather than....that other thing, not stupidity but non-though out words...damn brain is on the fritz again.
I'm surprised it took this long for anybody else to mention the other group of guys come walkin over like they were up to something. Looked like someone even threw something. It's a guarantee that those guys had more to do with Oscar's death than they did with getting him set free. Cop screwed up, maybe he had too much caffeine and got twitchy when he saw the other guys come walking over, but there's more going on in any scene like that than just the officer and the suspect. I'm not pinning the blame on Oscar, the cop, or the group of "thugs", I wasn't there and I'm not going to condemn anyone over some crappy cellphone video shot from 20-30 feet away.

[splendidyj]

This is all media propaganda. All you sheeple base your opinion on what you see on the news and internet. Remember that blood sells. Or as they say (if it bleeds it leads). I can’t imagine how you people throw this officer under the bus while they are throwing common sense out the door. In front of a train full of people and a platform full of witnesses you think a cop is going to whip out his gun and cold bloodily kill a young man. You are truly stupid mindless robots or you have an agenda that is breaking our society.
This is a rodney king all over again. If the cop was black then there would be thoughtful alterations to the video. But because he was white there are lawyers saying that the family wants 25m and if they don’t get it than the black community will burn down the streets. I am sick and dam tired of the race game and strong arming.
I am going to take down every ones board name and when the truth comes out I am going to post an, I told you so you dumb bastards link in the general forum thread. Mark my words. Peace out bitches!!!!

[ECKSJAY]

I am going to take down every ones board name and when the truth comes out I am going to post an, I told you so you dump bastards link in the general forum thread. Mark my words. Peace out bitches!!!!

Yeah, that'll show 'em! Dump bastards!

[hubs97xj]

Nominated.

[splendidyj]

Really, one little letter. Typical. Do you want proof of what I am saying? I know there are those that will still dismiss reality and inject their own delusional excuses but here goes. Just look at the news head line for this post.
First, they say that the officer executes the man. Wrong, our law is based on the fact that a person is innocent until proven guilty. Even the police. Was the cop fearful for his safety? I don’t know yet because the facts aren’t released from the investigation.
Second, the head line say's hand cuffed man. Obviously this is a straight out (racially provoking) lie. Until the fact's come out how about holding off on lighting that malitoff cocktail.

[Bent]

Really, one little letter.

Nope, nine letters; N-O-M-I-N-A-T-E-D.
:laugh:

[PurpleCherokee]

... I like you ECKJAY. You're not like all the other people here on NAXJA. :D

:smootch:

Awww, ecksjay I think he likes you!

:roflmao:

[ECKSJAY]

:smootch:

Awww, ecksjay I think he likes you!

:roflmao:

The song reference obviously escaped you. :shhh:

[bigalpha]

Profanity is against the rules on the open forums, "in context" or not.

Nuh uh ...

Posts containing profanity, for the sake of profanity will be DELETED! Everything will be considered within the context of the given situation. Again, judgment is at the discretion of the admin., and the guidelines determined by consensus of the NAXJA Board of Directors (http://www.naxja.org/html/forums_code_of_conduct.htm)

[FlexdXJ]

This is all media propaganda. All you sheeple base your opinion on what you see on the news and internet. Remember that blood sells. Or as they say (if it bleeds it leads). I can’t imagine how you people throw this officer under the bus while they are throwing common sense out the door. In front of a train full of people and a platform full of witnesses you think a cop is going to whip out his gun and cold bloodily kill a young man. You are truly stupid mindless robots or you have an agenda that is breaking our society.
This is a rodney king all over again. If the cop was black then there would be thoughtful alterations to the video. But because he was white there are lawyers saying that the family wants 25m and if they don’t get it than the black community will burn down the streets. I am sick and dam tired of the race game and strong arming.
I am going to take down every ones board name and when the truth comes out I am going to post an, I told you so you dumb bastards link in the general forum thread. Mark my words. Peace out bitches!!!!

Do you need a hug or what Dude? :D

[FlexdXJ]

Nope, nine letters; N-O-M-I-N-A-T-E-D.
:laugh:

Sometimes its just too easy! :roflmao:

[PurpleCherokee]

The song reference obviously escaped you. :shhh:

Sure did. Still sounds kinda lastara...



just sayin ;)

[bjoehandley]

One thing that has been bothering me about this whole thing is that all we've seen are videos taken by private citizens who just happened to be on the scene. No security camera video from BART on the matter has been released and the media has not said if they've tried to use "The Freedom of Information Act" for that video. I can't be the first one to think of this.

[Boatwrench]

It occurred at the Fruitvale Bart Station, the camera has probably been stolen or at least vandalized.

[PurpleCherokee]

But the footage from it should be somewhere far from the camera recorded on DVR safe and sound.

[Boatwrench]

But the footage from it should be somewhere far from the camera recorded on DVR safe and sound.

only if the camera is in place and working to begin with....:shhh: Most if not all these cameras have had the lens sprayed over by 'taggers' the polite term for vandals.

[hubs97xj]

I'm guessing if there's footage, it's not going to see much airtime- unless it's even more difficult to see what's going on in the frame.

[PurpleCherokee]

Oh I see so you're saying before the shooting even took place. That's a shame.

[Freaky McPants]

This is all media propaganda. All you sheeple base your opinion on what you see on the news and internet. Remember that blood sells. Or as they say (if it bleeds it leads). I can’t imagine how you people throw this officer under the bus while they are throwing common sense out the door. In front of a train full of people and a platform full of witnesses you think a cop is going to whip out his gun and cold bloodily kill a young man. You are truly stupid mindless robots or you have an agenda that is breaking our society.
This is a rodney king all over again. If the cop was black then there would be thoughtful alterations to the video. But because he was white there are lawyers saying that the family wants 25m and if they don’t get it than the black community will burn down the streets. I am sick and dam tired of the race game and strong arming.
I am going to take down every ones board name and when the truth comes out I am going to post an, I told you so you dumb bastards link in the general forum thread. Mark my words. Peace out bitches!!!!


Sure, We're all Sheeple who only believe what we see. I saw a a Cow today, it must be Media Propaganda. Maybe it wasent a Cow at all, and it was just a really big Dog? "Bloodily" is not a word" by the way.

[ECKSJAY]

Sure, We're all Sheeple who only believe what we see. I saw a a Cow today, it must be Media Propaganda. Maybe it wasent a Cow at all, and it was just a really big Dog?

Could have been a llama. :D

"Bloodily" is not a word" by the way.

-1

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bloodily

[Freaky McPants]

Could have been a llama. :D



-1

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bloodily


Oh Snap!

[Ray H]

I am going to take down every ones board name and when the truth comes out I am going to post an, I told you so you dumb bastards link in the general forum thread. Mark my words. Peace out bitches!!!![/FONT][/COLOR]

Ha, Ha, Ha ,Ha LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

Thats great, make sure to spell it right. Oh yeah, when the truth does come out Im sure you will be the first to appologize to us dumb bastages wont you?

[Darky]

Really, one little letter. Typical.
One little letter that's nowhere near the correct letter...
Nuh uh ...

Posts containing profanity, for the sake of profanity will be DELETED! Everything will be considered within the context of the given situation. Again, judgment is at the discretion of the admin., and the guidelines determined by consensus of the :NAXJA: Board of Directors (http://www.naxja.org/forum/../html/forums_code_of_conduct.htm)

Shut up! :D

[Boatwrench]

Ha, Ha, Ha ,Ha LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

Thats great, make sure to spell it right. Oh yeah, when the truth does come out Im sure you will be the first to appologize to us dumb bastages wont you?

Notice what state he is from?

[PurpleCherokee]

Come on, are we realy resorting to criticising speling? Why don't we stick to substentive points two argue? Besides, if you type long enough, soner or later you WILL mispell a word or to.

:D

[Darky]

Come on, are we realy resorting to criticising speling? Why don't we stick to substentive points two argue? Besides, if you type long enough, soner or later you WILL mispell a word or to.

:D
Not if you proofread...

Besides, with the argument he was using, there's no need to try and give a good back up..."I'm gonna write down all your board names and post an I told you so"? I agree with him that too many people automatically demonize cops and will believe he executed the guy in cold blood before believing that it was an "accident" but the guy's acting stupid.

[splendidyj]

Yeah, now that im looking back on it it does seem kinda silly saying I was going to call everyone out. It was early in the morning and I was getting to passionate about the subject. I am a media junkie ans so times I go to far. With the riot's going on it 's just that i thought we were more farther along than that. First with rodney king, then remember with O.J. and how the big threat was another riot if he was found guilty. Everyone knew that man was guilty. strong arming. Odvious!!
Im not being reciest either. Remember when Texas took like 50 of those kids from that religious sect. Remember how the media and bloggers were saying that all the men were petafiles and abusers. That was a modern day linching. How can the state take away all those kids on the word of a teen age girl in another state. Insane. Can they take my kids away from me just as easy. The state could not find one shread of evidence of any kind of criminal activity. In the end every one of the children were supreme court orderes back to thier children. Hey all you fathers you cant go to your homes or see your children for months if DFS gets one call from some dumb ass kid.
I wish I could do something about the way our country and society are going. I guess children change people. I pray this new addministration will do some thing. I think i will start watching the MTV shows all day.
Chech this out. I always spell check at least. Bloodily is a word because spell check corrected what I had with it. Anyways I have not spell checked or will I proof read any of this post, so have fun.

[Deadman 94 xj]

I pray this new addministration will do some thing.
:laugh2::laugh2::laugh2::laugh2::laugh2::eyes: :wantyou:

I always spell check at least. Bloodily is a word because spell check corrected what I had with it. Anyways I have not spell checked or will I proof read any of this post, so have fun.

ORLY? :conceited :helpme:

[Darky]

Bail was set at $3million, and people are demonstrating in the streets because he was even given bail. Its 3 frickin MILLION dollars!! He's not gonna get that from no bail bondsman! He's going to trial. Just because you think he's guilty doesn't mean the judge is going to take your side before he's been tried.

Also, anyone else see the clip of the guy smart enough to go on film talking about "if the courts don't get 'im...we will" Genius! Now if something happens I'm gonna come looking for you.

[igotanxj]

They shoulda set it at a few billion and take care of the CA deficit at the same time if someone decides to bail him out.