World calls for ceasefire....Hamas vows revenge

[XJEEPER]

Israel grows tired of Hamas randomly launching rockets into their cities and takes out a Hamas leader, as well as a few other strategic sites, such as mosques that were being used to stockpile weapons.

Press is making Israel out like the bad guys.....again. Some things will never change.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/12/27/israel-launches-air-strik_n_153664.html

http://www.csmonitor.com/2009/0102/p99s01-duts.html

Here's some real insight on Hamas, should be a good watch.

http://www.comcast.net/data/fan/html/popup.html?v=982484855&pl=foxfannews.xml&config=&launchpoint=Link&cid=fanlink&attr=news_sidebar&tab=news

[ECKSJAY]

I see nothing wrong with this. Carry on.

[Darky]

You noticed too? If Mexico started chucking rockets, mortars, and suicide bombers at us, you can be sure we would retaliate and bomb the heck out of em.

It was Hamas who broke the cease-fire a week early. The country of Palestine has never existed. They're fighting to get back something they never had. The Islamic extremists over there already have the Dome of the Rock. It's their third most holy site in all of Islam. That site though is the former home of the Jewish Temple, the holiest site in all of Judaism and pretty high up there in Christianity as well. I feel bad for the more moderate Muslims out there who don't agree with bombing Israel but I don't think any of us have any right to tell Israel to back down when we haven't been living with daily explosions.

[Jester99]

I have a solution to this on-going thousand year religious war. Round up all these dumbasses and kill them. These people never learn and will never learn. Take them all and lock them in their churches, mosques, with their holy books etc and burn it all down.:firedevil

[ECKSJAY]

I have a solution to this on-going thousand year religious war. Round up all these dumbasses and kill them. These people never learn and will never learn. Take them all and lock them in their churches, mosques, with their holy books etc and burn it all down.:firedevil

This coming from a guy worried about Marines observing LEO DUI checkpoints? Sure, someone doesn't get along...so let's use the government machine to round them up and exterminate them. Your foil is leaking.

[tharlanjr]

Oh Snap

[Darky]

I have a solution to this on-going thousand year religious war. Round up all these dumbasses and kill them. These people never learn and will never learn. Take them all and lock them in their churches, mosques, with their holy books etc and burn it all down.:firedevil

This coming from a guy worried about Marines observing LEO DUI checkpoints? Sure, someone doesn't get along...so let's use the government machine to round them up and exterminate them. Your foil is leaking.
Oh, and P.S., Jews go to temple, not church...

[wolfpackjeeper]

I have a friend who thinks the answer to extremism is patience, logic, and understanding.

I tell him that logic can never prove something that you do not believe in, or something you do not know (try looking into it, it only explains stuff already known) and that patience and understanding are wasted on people who do not care. The best solution to an extremist with a message is a bullet hole, preferably .45 or bigger.

The Israelis get shit on because they are doing what we SHOULD be doing. They are looking out for their own interests and security FIRST, without any regard to world opinion. Bush attempted to get America onto that trend, but it will probably be reversed soon in the HOPES that it will make other countries like us more and increase our standing in the media on the world stage.

[XJEEPER]

Never try to logic with a crazy person (insert Islamic extremists)........they will always have the advantage. They have no value for human life, only for their agenda.

[8Mud]

Before 1947 there was no Israel, they effectively invaded (most were illegal immigrants) and took over. They continued to import citizens from other countries to bolster there position. The, they were there first argument, doesn't really pan out, if it did, most of the US would be returned to the Indians or the Mexicans. The Jews are still the minority, run the country and the government (so much for majority rule, the old South African regime labeled bad for apartheid, Israel never really judged for doing just about the same thing in Palistine). In 67 they ran off (into neighboring countries) nearly a million Palestinians and confiscated everything they left behind.
The only real reasons the U.S. gives a hoot one way or the other is because of the Jewish lobby and the Suez Canal.
The Palestinians have a legitimate beef and IMO the right to be pissed off, but there methods do suck and are unlikely to have much success ever, the same with the Israelis. In the end might is right and the Israelis with American arms seem to be the might in the region.

[JNickel101]

Palistinians are Muslim, correct?

....I see no issue with Israel killing as many of them as possible then....saves us the trouble.

http://www.obsessionthemovie.com/

[ECKSJAY]

Before 1947 there was no Israel, they effectively invaded (most were illegal immigrants) and took over. They continued to import citizens from other countries to bolster there position. The, they were there first argument, doesn't really pan out, if it did, most of the US would be returned to the Indians or the Mexicans. The Jews are still the minority, run the country and the government (so much for majority rule, the old South African regime labeled bad for apartheid, Israel never really judged for doing just about the same thing in Palistine). In 67 they ran off (into neighboring countries) nearly a million Palestinians and confiscated everything they left behind.
The only real reasons the U.S. gives a hoot one way or the other is because of the Jewish lobby and the Suez Canal.
The Palestinians have a legitimate beef and IMO the right to be pissed off, but there methods do suck and are unlikely to have much success ever, the same with the Israelis. In the end might is right and the Israelis with American arms seem to be the might in the region.

Israel exists because of God's Covenant with Abraham and is faithful to His chosen people. ;) The Jews have God on their side...which pretty much screws it for everyone else. :rtm:

[buschwhaked]

If you all are really interested in this problem, I would recommend reading Thomas Friedmen's "From Beruit to Jerusalem." The problem is much more nuanced than it appears.

I think the two state solution is the best solution, which is what has basically happened on a general level. The West Bank and Gaza have their own Democratically elected government and I think Israel has handed the election of Hamas really well. The PLO doesn't even like them.

Once a ceasefire is reached over this (it probably will be) Israel should tell Hamas "rule how you want. F*ck with us again and we'll push you into the Mediterranean." Israel should be sincerely hands off after that though. No meddling.

Then again, being in almost a constant state of war since Isreal's inception would make it hard to let water go under the bridge.

[8Mud]

Israel exists because of God's Covenant with Abraham and is faithful to His chosen people. ;) The Jews have God on their side...which pretty much screws it for everyone else. :rtm:

:angel:

For me to buy off on the terrorism label as applied to the Palestinians, somebody is going to have to explain the difference between collateral damage and terrorism. It's terrorism when they do it and collateral damage when we do it, isn't really a valid argument.:confused1

[ECKSJAY]

:angel:

For me to buy off on the terrorism label as applied to the Palestinians, somebody is going to have to explain the difference between collateral damage and terrorism. It's terrorism when they do it and collateral damage when we do it, isn't really a valid argument.:confused1

What's this 'we' stuff? Aren't you some sorta ex-pat?

[tharlanjr]

Who said collateral damage is acceptable?

Its not, but there is a difference between trying to get a bad guy and accidentally getting innocents and just killing innocent people for whatever reason.

Collateral Damage should be completely avoided, and targets only chosen when its possible to limit outside deaths. Unfortunately that isn't always the case...

[8Mud]

What's this 'we' stuff? Aren't you some sorta ex-pat?
Ex-pat or whatever, I've probably got more time in chow line than you've had in uniform. Between US forces, the State Department and NATO I've nearly 40 years in some sort of service.
Ex-pat? At what point does my current residence become irrelevant. I've always considered myself a sort of Border Patrol, I just patrol 7-10.000 miles on the other side of the border.
I guess the people who stay home in Buttkiss Wisconsin are the true patriots.
A person can be a cynic and still be a patriot. I've always believed what is good for the US, is good for Germany. The US is partly what allows Germany to be a liberal democracy and survive, without big brother, the Germans would be forced to shift there views to the right significantly. We all know the results the last time that happened.

[8Mud]

Who said collateral damage is acceptable?

Its not, but there is a difference between trying to get a bad guy and accidentally getting innocents and just killing innocent people for whatever reason.

Collateral Damage should be completely avoided, and targets only chosen when its possible to limit outside deaths. Unfortunately that isn't always the case...

War is politics by other means. No matter what your intent or political goals, there really is little difference between dropping it out of an airplane, firing it out of a cannon or hiding it in a parked car.

[JNickel101]

Who said collateral damage is acceptable?

Its not, but there is a difference between trying to get a bad guy and accidentally getting innocents and just killing innocent people for whatever reason.

Collateral Damage should be completely avoided, and targets only chosen when its possible to limit outside deaths. Unfortunately that isn't always the case...

Collateral damage is "unacceptable" today because we're forced to fight politically correct wars. You never heard anyone bitching about collateral damage in WWII when France, Germany and Japan were leveled...

I was for dropping one big ass bomb on Baghdad....or in ToraBora...and I'm all for Israel continuing to drop 2000 pound bombs on Gaza.

wolfpack said it - you can't reason with these extremists. The only thing that will stop them is killing them. They're like storm troopers, programed to do one thing, and programed from birth.

www.obsessionthemovie.com (http://www.obsessionthemovie.com)

I'll keep ending my posts with that...

[8Mud]

Collateral damage is "unacceptable" today because we're forced to fight politically correct wars. You never heard anyone bitching about collateral damage in WWII when France, Germany and Japan were leveled...

I was for dropping one big ass bomb on Baghdad....or in ToraBora...and I'm all for Israel continuing to drop 2000 pound bombs on Gaza.

wolfpack said it - you can't reason with these extremists. The only thing that will stop them is killing them. They're like storm troopers, programed to do one thing, and programed from birth.

www.obsessionthemovie.com (http://www.obsessionthemovie.com)

I'll keep ending my posts with that...

I mostly agree (by the way I've seen the movie and actually have a copy). Two schools of thought since WW II, one is the limited war or bleed them just enough to force them to negotiate. Or the good old fashioned kind, where you hammer them good and break their will to fight.
Since nukes, most people have tended towards the limited type. But actually with little success or largely no significant successes, unless you count the cold war.
The problem with Israel dropping 2000 pounders on Gaza, is the question, when does it stops being a punitive action and start being genocide. The politicians are really good at throwing terms and labels around. They are less good at at avoiding the hypocrisy associated with the terms, as applied universally.
Watch Red Dawn and substitute the Cubans and Russians with the US and the Palstrianinas with the wolverines.
Say what you will about the Palestinians, but I for one have to admire there tenacity if nothing else.

[tharlanjr]

I completely agree that sometimes collateral damage is required, but it should always be avoided.

Why would you try to kill innocent lives? Children who are no part of this shouldn't be killed for any reason.

I agree that Israel should be bombing Gaza, I supported bombing of Baghdad and Tora Bora. I COMPLETELY agree that you cannot reason with people whom put their lives and innocent lives out on the line and openly call for the destruction of our nation, the jews and the west as a whole.

My point was just to clarify the difference between terrorism (killing of innocents for whatever reason) and Collateral damage (accidental deaths due to killing a terrorist/ priority targets)




Collateral damage is "unacceptable" today because we're forced to fight politically correct wars. You never heard anyone bitching about collateral damage in WWII when France, Germany and Japan were leveled...

I was for dropping one big ass bomb on Baghdad....or in ToraBora...and I'm all for Israel continuing to drop 2000 pound bombs on Gaza.

wolfpack said it - you can't reason with these extremists. The only thing that will stop them is killing them. They're like storm troopers, programed to do one thing, and programed from birth.

www.obsessionthemovie.com (http://www.obsessionthemovie.com)

I'll keep ending my posts with that...

[JNickel101]

Innocent goes out the window when you knowingly harbor terrorists or "the enemy" - thats why I think we should be carpet bombing the hell out of those rogue Pakistani villages that are hiding Bin Laden/terrorists/Taliban/whatever....

[tharlanjr]

I agree, if they are knowingly harboring terrorist or weapons they aren't innocent anymore...

[Darky]

Before 1947 there was no Israel, they effectively invaded (most were illegal immigrants) and took over. They continued to import citizens from other countries to bolster there position. The, they were there first argument, doesn't really pan out, if it did, most of the US would be returned to the Indians or the Mexicans. The Jews are still the minority, run the country and the government (so much for majority rule, the old South African regime labeled bad for apartheid, Israel never really judged for doing just about the same thing in Palistine). In 67 they ran off (into neighboring countries) nearly a million Palestinians and confiscated everything they left behind.
The only real reasons the U.S. gives a hoot one way or the other is because of the Jewish lobby and the Suez Canal.
The Palestinians have a legitimate beef and IMO the right to be pissed off, but there methods do suck and are unlikely to have much success ever, the same with the Israelis. In the end might is right and the Israelis with American arms seem to be the might in the region.
There's never been a Palestine, Jews were getting slaughtered everywhere they went so it was decided to give them back some of the land they formerly occupied in order to give them a safe haven. The Palestinians have no legitimate beef.

Who are we, in America, to sit back and tell Israel, who's lived with daily rocket attacks and suicide bombers for the last 20 yrs that they have no right to defend themselves and take out the people propagating these attacks? Difference between terrorism and collateral damage: one specifically targets civilians during peace time, usually done by a NGO, the other is done by a military during a legitimate time of war and is not necessarily always the goal.

[8Mud]

There's never been a Palestine, Jews were getting slaughtered everywhere they went so it was decided to give them back some of the land they formerly occupied in order to give them a safe haven. The Palestinians have no legitimate beef.

Who are we, in America, to sit back and tell Israel, who's lived with daily rocket attacks and suicide bombers for the last 20 yrs that they have no right to defend themselves and take out the people propagating these attacks? Difference between terrorism and collateral damage: one specifically targets civilians during peace time, usually done by a NGO, the other is done by a military during a legitimate time of war and is not necessarily always the goal.

The name Palestine goes back a long way, though the borders have been very fluid over the centuries.
I'll have to qualify my statement, by saying before 1947 there was no "state" of Israel. Some of the area inside the fluid borders of Palestine was at one time or another called Israel. It was also a province or territory of numerous invaders.
I wouldn't dream of telling Israel not to retaliate, but do find the moral high ground arguments hard to swallow.
They were provoked, the Hamas rhetoric, boombast and arrogance sure adds fuel to the fire.
My point was, I find it hard to label either side the victim in most confrontations. Both sides are belligerents, both have legitimate grievances.

[JNickel101]

I've never seen a map that had a country on it called Palestine. It is a "region" or a "territory" that covers Israel, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon....and of course Gaza or whatever it is referred to now (Israel's latest bombing range?).

[8Mud]

I've never seen a map that had a country on it called Palestine. It is a "region" or a "territory" that covers Israel, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon....and of course Gaza or whatever it is referred to now (Israel's latest bombing range?).
Ok We will call it Canaan from now on and the people Canaanites. :)

[ehall]

Before Israel, the land was owned by the Ottoman Turkish empire, who lost it to the British after siding with Germany in WWI. At the time, the land of Israel was merely a collection of city states and a handful of bedhouins in between, with no formal regional identity. However, jews were the majority inhabitants of Jerusalem, and the jews owned the majority of the land. As such, they had as much of a natural right to declare self rule as any other ethnic group, much like the dozens of ethnicities across Europe who have done the same.

Israel has certainly done some bad things (camping land they do not own, for starters), but the real problem for the Arabs--in sum and total--is that Islam considers land under Islamic rule to have been won, and other lands as yet to be won. The creation of Israel reverted some of that land, thus the existence of Israel is an insult to Islam. That is all of it right there.

[ECKSJAY]

lol, religion

All the same God...just different ways of listening. :roflmao:

[tbburg]

War is politics by other means. No matter what your intent or political goals, there really is little difference between dropping it out of an airplane, firing it out of a cannon or hiding it in a parked car.
So, let's see if I have this straight: "dropping it out of an airplane, firing it out of a cannon" at a mortar/rocket launcher intentionally placed in the middle of a group of houses, is the moral equivalent of, "hiding it in a parked car" and intentionally blowing the shit out of a bus load of uninvolved civilians.

[JNickel101]

Ok We will call it Canaan from now on and the people Canaanites. :)


:roflmao:

[JNickel101]

lol, religion

All the same God...just different ways of listening. :roflmao:


and all mindless sheep :shhh: :gag: :anon:

[tharlanjr]

Different god, different things, yes they worship a god, and I worship a god, but different things.

Mindless sheep are those who think all religions are same and should be gone...

[JNickel101]

Funny...in the Bible, it even refers to God as "shepard" and people as "sheep"

I always thought that was an interesting analogy......well, ok, insulting...but still "interesting"....

"...there's no mystical energy field that controls my destiny...." (Han Solo)

[Mudderoy]

Israel exists because of God's Covenant with Abraham and is faithful to His chosen people. ;) The Jews have God on their side...which pretty much screws it for everyone else. :rtm:

Yes... I'll see your 4 aces with my GOD!

I won't even pretend to understand the whole story with Israel and Humas. From what I do know, I side with Israel on this. I never like seeing woman and children being hurt, and if Humas felt the same way they would make themselves a military target instead of hiding behind the women and children.

[Mudderoy]

Funny...in the Bible, it even refers to God as "shepard" and people as "sheep"

I always thought that was an interesting analogy......well, ok, insulting...but still "interesting"....

"...there's no mystical energy field that controls my destiny...." (Han Solo)

And Han Solo was WRONG! Hmmm you would have thought he would have just read ahead in the script...

[JNickel101]

And Han Solo was WRONG! Hmmm you would have thought he would have just read ahead in the script...

Everybody knows space pirates can't read....

[ECKSJAY]

Different god, different things, yes they worship a god, and I worship a god, but different things.

Mindless sheep are those who think all religions are same and should be gone...

Yahweh, God, and Allah are one and the same. The only difference is in how people believe and practice...and what they have chosen to listen to.

Your statement reminds me of growing up with braindead 'Christians':

Me: "Ah, so you go to church...what faith are you?"

Them: "Oh, I'm Christian."

Me: "Oh cool, so am I."

Them: "Huh? I thought you were Catholic."

Me: :twak:

[8Mud]

So, let's see if I have this straight: "dropping it out of an airplane, firing it out of a cannon" at a mortar/rocket launcher intentionally placed in the middle of a group of houses, is the moral equivalent of, "hiding it in a parked car" and intentionally blowing the shit out of a bus load of uninvolved civilians.

YUP! Once it leaves the airplane or the end of the canon, no matter what your intent, who it falls on is largely out of your control. Intentionally blowing up civilians is wrong, accidentally blowing them up is no less wrong, they are just as dead.
The Oops factor, just doesn't cut it for an excuse, if it's your kids being shelled or bombed.
My point is, there is no moral high ground.

[Boatwrench]

Wonder if the Indians felt this way? (http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=9bb_1188163832)

I watched the entire film, am wary of the subtitles, but the actions of the kids and attitude of the settler woman speaks volumes.

[Boatwrench]

Palistinians are Muslim, correct?

Not really (http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/rnr/977772655.html) The owner of the corner store in my neighborhood is Palestinian and he is a Catholic.

[JNickel101]

I like that guy already....especially the very last line....:roflmao:

....but what's he selling in that post? :D

[Shorty]

My point is, there is no moral high ground.

I tend to agree with you with the exception of using force/ taking a life to protect the life of another that is in immediate and certain peril. Morals, however, are taught through the small nurturing groups of people raising the children and are, over time, ingrained into a civilization. It does no good to discuss morals and "higher ground" when you are viewing this with a collective set of morals that isn't shared by the combatants. They are all doing what they believe is right-- all be it contrary to the worlds popular opinion-- and we (as an outside force) will have little effect on the long term solution to the problem.
Everyone has an opinion on how things should be done and why, but is it any more "moral" to attempt to force your views into a society? Sanctions and embargoes starve the wrong people, bombs kill the wrong people, and peace talks just prolong the inevitable.
As depressing as it is, I don't see any of us being around for the "thrilling conclusion" to this disagreement, and I don't harbor any great ill will toward any of those involved. I would, however, sleep better at night knowing that those who believe the INTENTIONAL killing of uninvolved citizens is moral have been extinguished and MY rules of fair play have been restored to everywhere.

probably not in this lifetime, though.