obama's community service plan

[ehall]

I guess this is appropriate, since his kin in Africa were slave traders

http://change.gov/americaserves/

Obama will call on citizens of all ages to serve America, by developing a plan to require 50 hours of community service in middle school and high school and 100 hours of community service in college every year.

Alas there is a little thing in the constitution called the 13th amendment

Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

You'd think somebody who is a professor of constitutional law would know what it XXXXing says

Or maybe the tyrant does not care

[RedHeep]

I edited your title because I thought it was offensive (and I'm caucasian.)

Please keep a perspective on the context of your words.

Thanks
Josh

[IslanderOffRoad]

Oh god god.

I didn't vote for Obama, but this is one of the ideas he has that I actually like.

I went to Catholic school. I was required to do 100 hours of community service to graduate... and you know what, I'm glad I had to.

Yes, community service is best when provided willingly, but how many of the fat little children our country has raised would willingly put down their donut and ps3 controller and go out and contribute something to society? After making them do it a few times, they might like it.

The government forces kids to go to school against their will, does that mean they shouldn't have to go to school?

Your parents likely forced you to try broccoli and other things you didn't want to as a kid for your own good.

Its been 2 days and I'm tired of the nitpicking of Obama. He's not the antichrist, he's not Hitler, he's not here to enslave whitey, and he sure as shit will never get things as socialist as he wants.

[ehall]

Your parents chose to put you in that school, knowing what would be taught (religion) and what would be expected (volunteering among other things). There is a difference between that and the government violating the constitution sport.

[Ronbo]

I suppose my definition of community service differs from the "slavery nor involuntary servitude" mentioned in the constitution. I think a little community service is a good thing for the 'Me Generation' and I 'd bet the founding fathers would agree.

Servitude : a condition in which one lacks liberty especially to determine one's course of action or way of life.

Slavery: submission to a dominating influence. / the state of a person who is a chattel of another.

[rock rash]

Holy shit I had to do about 200 hours of community service to get my eagle scout...damn those slave owners!


seriously? community service is slave labor?

[ehall]

Holy shit I had to do about 200 hours of community service to get my eagle scout...damn those slave owners!
which was voluntary

seriously? community service is slave labor?
indentured servitude is indentured servitude, whether you think it is excusable or not

[ehall]

I suppose my definition of community service differs from the "slavery nor involuntary servitude" mentioned in the constitution. I think a little community service is a good thing for the 'Me Generation' and I 'd bet the founding fathers would agree.
Well let's walk through this then. If you believe that it's a good thing for kids, then surely it's a good thing for adults too? Why not make everybody do XX hours of mandatory labor for the government?

The constitution explicitly itemizes some exceptions here, namely conscription, but even that is paid. Mandatory labor in service to the government is a whole 'nother can of worms, which noone should excuse. That whole thing about government working for and answering to the people, well pshaw, it's a good thing to make the people work for and answer to the government...

As for the other posts about "I did it in this other PRIVATE institution" there is a difference there in that you can leave the institution, but when it is government mandated "you will deliver meals, you will sort the mail, you will work the radio station, you will help load artillery (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler_Youth#Hitler_Youth_in_World_War_II)" there is no way to leave the organization on grounds that you disagree with the work being performed.

Do you folks have a problem with being forced to perform work that the government dictates or will you just excuse the process by which the citizenry are made slaves to The One. Constitution, shmonstitution, what's the big deal...

[rock rash]

which was voluntary


indentured servitude is indentured servitude, whether you think it is excusable or notI was "forced" into volunteering for many service proujects for being a prt of my troop. Didi I have an option to leave? Yes, and so do you.

[GrimmJeeper]

seriously? community service is slave labor?
community service is a routine punishment for minors who violate the law, to show them that helping thier community can be a better option than gettting into trouble. forcing it upon people involuntarily without good reason is wrong. kids today have no morals or sense of civic duty because the parents arent teaching it to them, it isnt really thier fault. i dont agree with this policy at all.

[ehall]

I was "forced" into volunteering for many service proujects for being a prt of my troop. Didi I have an option to leave? Yes, and so do you.

My option to refuse indentured servitude to The One is to leave America?

[rock rash]

My option to refuse indentured servitude to The One is to leave America?sure is! :cheers:

[Hellbent]

community service is a routine punishment for minors who violate the law, to show them that helping thier community can be a better option than gettting into trouble. forcing it upon people involuntarily is wrong. kids today have no morals or sense of civic duty because the parents arent teaching it to them, it isnt really thier fault. i dont agree with this policy at all.

well put sir, well put.

[GrimmJeeper]

sure is! :cheers:
serve me or GTFO? that sure sounds like "land of the free" to me :rolleyes:

[Ronbo]

I'd agree with you on involuntary servitude. After reading the paragraph, it seems to say 'call on Americans', 'setting a goal', 'encourage retiring Americans' and offers $$$ for service:

"and by developing a plan so that all college students who conduct 100 hours of community service receive a universal and fully refundable tax credit ensuring that the first $4,000 of their college education is completely free."
Sounds like students could get $40/hour credit for CS?

Maybe my tinfoil hat is blocking the Nazi propaganda ? Hehe. IMHO, I'll have to see the final draft of this plan.

[alex22]

The Voluntary 100 hours per year for $4000 to put towards college is ok.
Think about the impact of the added 50 hours to a student who is on a school team or in the band. Now between school, studying, practice they have to commit another 50 hours to the community?

I was in scouts from 12 till my 18th birthday, made it to Life scout, went to the national jamboree once and NOAC twice. I had a blast, our community service projects were fun, I helped out my friends with their eagle projects. Then became an ASM after that.
The problem is when you have X amount of students in high school and Y students in middle school the school district will have atleast 50X + 50Y student hours that have to be completed per year. Finding a good use for that work force could be difficult in come areas.

Notice that he doesn't list BSA as an acceptable place to do your community service time, so you would have to do your 50 or 100 per year AND your scouting hours, unless the troop accepts the Omama hours for BSA advancement. Obama doesn't exactly like the BSA and their no gay policy because its discriminatory.

On the Eagle scout note. BSA requires 12 hours of community service and an eagle project consisting of atleast 200 man-hours demonstrating your ability to organize and show your leadership skills.

~Alex

Edited: caught an error.

[Boatwrench]

eHall makes a good arguement. I am agreeing with him so far. As a recipient of the good works of WPA and later VISTA, I believe community service is good, but in the context eHall frames it...doesn't look so good. Now Section 2 of the same amendment might give the President some wiggle room on this...and that would be a REAL danger.

Let's also not lose sight of the U.S. being a Republic, and the fact We the People elected those Representatives and Senators who many now believe will enslave us.

The interesting turn of events is that it is usually right wingers who say if you don't agree with the Government than get out. "America, love it or Leave it" B.S.

[msrorysddad]

than get out? To pay someone for their service I agree with. To make it "mandatory" to work, is not. I'm right wing, however I know my constitutional rights. To be conservative does not mean to rewrite the constitution, it means to stand up for it. IF the government is wrong, it is wrong. My child will not work for the government for free, nor will I. I do believe that there are plenty of things that our government could pay to be done by individuals. I would like nothing more than to see the welfare system abolished and a program put in place that allows people to work for the money that up to now seems to pour fourth from the government coffers. People tend to forget that the government has no money, the money is the people's . To see the bureaucracy's take so much for the programs, and give so little out tends to make me think it's not really such a good idea. Eco, how much is taken in as a tax for the welfare program, and how much is payed out to those on welfare? It seem that the government has a poor track record as far as the use of OUR monies. Yes, Rock to "require" someone to "serve", is in it's easiest definition, slavery. If I came and got you, and told you you will work for me without pay, what would be your response? To ask that people serve is one thing to require it? Do not play dumb, any of you, I do not care who you are. Stop with the B.S. let's all be honest adults. It is what it is. If you agree, just admit that socialism is ok with you and we will know where we all stand. As for me, I will not b.s. you. I yam what I yam (Popeye)

[Boatwrench]

msrorysdad,

I am a socialist. I believe that a healthy educated workforce is the backbone of a strong economy and nation. We can't get there without social programs.

You can't get an educated workforce without government sponsored standards of education. All of you who went through public schools, that's a social program. It's paid for by the government structure for the good of the people.

Healthy workforce. This one isn't so clear yet, I don't have an answer, wish I did. I do know that the emergency rooms are filled with people that need minor medical care and have no coverage nor other means to pay for it. As an employer I need my skilled worker on the job, not in a waiting room.

I didn't like it when the right would say leave the U.S. and I don't like it now with some on the left saying it. The speech that needs the most protection granted by our Constitution is the unpopluar speech. The speech of those with the minority view point. In the case of last Tuesday's elections the minority view point (well not on NAXJA) is from the right this time.

:peace:

Rylee's papa

[k.smith904]

all i can do is laugh (to keep from crying)

[Ecomike]

People tend to forget that the government has no money, the money is the people's . (Popeye)

You might want to re think that part of your last post, since the government prints the money, not the people.

Perhaps it would help if you understood what money really is. Money is defined as:

"the evidence of someone else's debt".

Check the dollars in your walllet at the top. It says "Federal Reserve Note", meaning promissory NOTE!

It also says "this note is legal tender for all debts public and private"

[Ecomike]

msrorysdad,

I believe that a healthy educated workforce is the backbone of a strong economy and nation. We can't get there without social programs.


AGREED!!!!



You can't get an educated workforce without government sponsored standards of education. All of you who went through public schools, that's a social program. It's paid for by the government structure for the good of the people.

I disagree in part. The property taxes paid by business and home owners generally pay for the public school costs, not paid for by the government, but routed through the government agencies like school districts.



Healthy workforce. This one isn't so clear yet, I don't have an answer, wish I did. I do know that the emergency rooms are filled with people that need minor medical care and have no coverage nor other means to pay for it. As an employer I need my skilled worker on the job, not in a waiting room.

I think this is in part about tackling the obeisity problem that is raging here, which leads to many other chronic health problems. JFK took a run at the problem in the 60's, and they started phys-ed classes in public schools to improve fitness of americans. Getting Cokes, candy and McDonalds out the school lunch program and teaching kids how to truely eat healthy at a young age would be a very good start. It is already starting to happen.


I didn't like it when the right would say leave the U.S. and I don't like it now with some on the left saying it. The speech that needs the most protection granted by our Constitution is the unpopluar speech. The speech of those with the minority view point. In the case of last Tuesday's elections the minority view point (well not on NAXJA) is from the right this time.



While I agree whole heartly with you on that, I read today that jobs increased (rather than decreased ) in Canada in October, so it may be time to pack up and move there just for a job, LOL.

On a sad note, the biggest increase in Jobs in Canada was working for the government in October, had something to with hiring election workers.

[ehall]

cash is a temporal representation of wealth, that is all. other forms of wealth are (EG) homes, stocks, and other assets. wealth is created when value is created, IE swing a hammer to produce an item that has value and poof wealth is created right then and there. trade it, sell it, whatever, the wealth is defined by the value, cash is just a way to represent the value and is meaningless otherwise

government does not create wealth, it consumes it

[Boatwrench]

I disagree in part. The property taxes paid by business and home owners generally pay for the public school costs, not paid for by the government, but routed through the government agencies like school districts.

Taxes are how the Government gets the funding. School Districts are government run (at leats in my county)

I think this is in part about tackling the obeisity problem that is raging here, which leads to many other chronic health problems. Reader's Digest this month had an article about the top five problems to tackle and the cost of health care would drop dramtically, obesity and diabetes were the top two

While I agree whole heartly with you on that, I read today that jobs increased (rather than decreased ) in Canada in October, so it may be time to pack up and move there just for a job, LOL.
Reported today that 240K jobs were lost in October. 1st hand witness to this was I looked at a new tow vehicle before going to Moab and returned to find the dealership had closed it doors. Probably 35-50 jobs gone. Tonight another Chevy dealer announced they are closing the doors next month and Rightseatsis told me the local Jeep dealer will also, another 70-100 jobs

[IslanderOffRoad]

Your parents chose to put you in that school, knowing what would be taught (religion) and what would be expected (volunteering among other things). There is a difference between that and the government violating the constitution sport.

I don't see it as a violation of the constitution to ask a minor, as part of their education, to provide some community service; I know of a few public high schools in California that already require it for graduation.

Perhaps its unconstitutional to make kids take foreign language classes too when they dont want to, or it discriminates against fat kids to require physical education.

I really think the criticisms of this one are people digging too deep.

[IslanderOffRoad]

Well let's walk through this then. If you believe that it's a good thing for kids, then surely it's a good thing for adults too? Why not make everybody do XX hours of mandatory labor for the government?

The constitution explicitly itemizes some exceptions here, namely conscription, but even that is paid. Mandatory labor in service to the government is a whole 'nother can of worms, which noone should excuse. That whole thing about government working for and answering to the people, well pshaw, it's a good thing to make the people work for and answer to the government...

As for the other posts about "I did it in this other PRIVATE institution" there is a difference there in that you can leave the institution, but when it is government mandated "you will deliver meals, you will sort the mail, you will work the radio station, you will help load artillery (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler_Youth#Hitler_Youth_in_World_War_II)" there is no way to leave the organization on grounds that you disagree with the work being performed.

Do you folks have a problem with being forced to perform work that the government dictates or will you just excuse the process by which the citizenry are made slaves to The One. Constitution, shmonstitution, what's the big deal...

No where did he say the service is in benefit of the government. Its to benefit your community, whether its the hospital, the old folks home, picking up trash, etc.

And yes, its good for adults too, but the idea is to expose youth to it through the requirement, and for the adult to make the choice whether they continue it or not.

[IslanderOffRoad]

The Voluntary 100 hours per year for $4000 to put towards college is ok.
Think about the impact of the added 50 hours to a student who is on a school team or in the band. Now between school, studying, practice they have to commit another 50 hours to the community?

I was in scouts from 12 till my 18th birthday, made it to Life scout, went to the national jamboree once and NOAC twice. I had a blast, our community service projects were fun, I helped out my friends with their eagle projects. Then became an ASM after that.
The problem is when you have X amount of students in high school and Y students in middle school the school district will have atleast 50X + 50Y student hours that have to be completed per year. Finding a good use for that work force could be difficult in come areas.

Notice that he doesn't list BSA as an acceptable place to do your community service time, so you would have to do your 50 or 100 per year AND your scouting hours, unless the troop accepts the Omama hours for BSA advancement. Obama doesn't exactly like the BSA and their no gay policy because its discriminatory.

On the Eagle scout note. BSA requires 12 hours of community service and an eagle project consisting of atleast 200 man-hours demonstrating your ability to organize and show your leadership skills.

~Alex

Edited: caught an error.

Its late so I'll go into the gay policy of the BSA later (I'm an employee). For now I'll say its extremely misunderstood and blown out of proportion by the media.

Kids at my school, which required community service, seemed to do ok with their 50 hours in addition to the band, sports, and a social life.

[ehall]

I don't see it as a violation of the constitution to ask ...
"requiring" is not asking, it's dictating.

Or it was... Team Obama has since gotten a clue and changed the wording on that site:

Obama will call on citizens of all ages to serve America, by setting a goal that all middle school and high school students do 50 hours of community service a year and by developing a plan so that all college students who conduct 100 hours of community service receive a universal and fully refundable tax credit ensuring that the first $4,000 of their college education is completely free.

They are no longer talking about "requiring" anything, and are also talking about compensating for the labor, although the modified proposal still makes the citizenry answerable to The One.

[rock rash]

serve me or GTFO? that sure sounds like "land of the free" to me :rolleyes:
I was just prodding the bear... :D

[SBrad001]

My option to refuse indentured servitude to The One is to leave America?

Absolutely! Now, GTFO. . . .

[SBrad001]

I'd agree with you on involuntary servitude. After reading the paragraph, it seems to say 'call on Americans', 'setting a goal', 'encourage retiring Americans' and offers $$$ for service:

"and by developing a plan so that all college students who conduct 100 hours of community service receive a universal and fully refundable tax credit ensuring that the first $4,000 of their college education is completely free."
Sounds like students could get $40/hour credit for CS?

Maybe my tinfoil hat is blocking the Nazi propaganda ? Hehe. IMHO, I'll have to see the final draft of this plan.

ehall, is just another STUPID FauxNews Dittohead, that likes to regurgitate all this STUPID rightwing propaganda shit. I gave up on something intelligent coming out of his mouth a long time ago.

[IslanderOffRoad]

"requiring" is not asking, it's dictating.

Or it was... Team Obama has since gotten a clue and changed the wording on that site:

Obama will call on citizens of all ages to serve America, by setting a goal that all middle school and high school students do 50 hours of community service a year and by developing a plan so that all college students who conduct 100 hours of community service receive a universal and fully refundable tax credit ensuring that the first $4,000 of their college education is completely free.

They are no longer talking about "requiring" anything, and are also talking about compensating for the labor, although the modified proposal still makes the citizenry answerable to The One.

So what this all boils down to is a semantics argument due to the way some peon in the Obama camp wrote something on a website.

I still think it should be a requirement for minors to do it as part of their education.

[WrenchMonkey]

So what this all boils down to is a semantics argument due to the way some peon in the Obama camp wrote something on a website.

Yes, but...

Those "peons" are no longer community organizers who get to spout off half-baked ideas and then say, "Oh, wait, let me clarify..."

They are, or soon will be, representatives of the full authority of the United States of America.

And throwing around terms like "required service" is a good way to raise a lot of suspicious minds.

And reasonably so, I would say...

Robert

[msrorysddad]

Eco, how wrong can you be? The government prints money, so it's theirs? That's like saying that since nike made my shoes, they belong to nike. The government has no money, we the people do. The government is supposed to represent the people. As for, "I'm a socialist" Then why do we not all send every dollar to the government, and stand in line to get what the government deems us to need? The public school system is a wreck, to point at that fiasco and tell me it is a sign of the governments works is funny. When a young person graduates high school and cannot print legibly on an application, who won? With the amount we now spend each year on "education" we'd be better off putting it aside on 401s and letting it grow. The problem with the government we now have is, every program is wrought with bureaucratic mismanagement, and overpaid management. I do enjoy the fact that a lot of the individuals must resort to name calling and accusations instead of actually trying to state facts and rationalize their argument (you can't). We volunteer in the nursing homes, churches, 4h and other organizations in our area. I do not need the government to force it on me, and I will refuse if ever they decide to. Socialism does not and will not work, ask Fidel, or better yet the Cuban refugees. Ask the Russians. To pretend it does is too funny. When it gets to the point that the welfare recipients outnumber the workers, watch the party. The argument over health care, get the trial lawyers out of it and the health care costs will plummet. I've got a friend that retired early as a OBGYN because of the ever rising cost of insurance, brought on by the trial lawyers, and judicial system that seems to always work in the favor of the attorneys, not either party involved. Until we as nation stand up aand do what is right, because it is right, nothing will change. Growing a government that does nothing more than spend the tax payers money, does nothing but add to the problems.

[msrorysddad]

Eco. Money as defined by Websters dictionary is: something generally accepted as a medium of exchange, a measure of value, or a means of payment. I know you are much smarter than me and it surprises me that you didn't know that. You can look it and other definitions up on line, it's pretty neat. The money the government "has" is worthless without "we the people", whom do all the labor involved in securing those funds. The government has no right to demand free labor, and I do believe that was what this thread started out to address. If you wish to rewrite the constitution, and bill of rights, lets begin that process, I hope the amount of individuals opposed to doing that would outnumber those that wish to. If not, then maybe it will be time for those of us that wish to work for our money, and to be free to decide how and why it is spent to find another location. I feel that the smaller the government the better.

[Ecomike]

Eco. Money as defined by Websters dictionary is: something generally accepted as a medium of exchange, a measure of value, or a means of payment. I know you are much smarter than me and it surprises me that you didn't know that. You can look it and other definitions up on line, it's pretty neat. The money the government "has" is worthless without "we the people", whom do all the labor involved in securing those funds. The government has no right to demand free labor, and I do believe that was what this thread started out to address. If you wish to rewrite the constitution, and bill of rights, lets begin that process, I hope the amount of individuals opposed to doing that would outnumber those that wish to. If not, then maybe it will be time for those of us that wish to work for our money, and to be free to decide how and why it is spent to find another location. I feel that the smaller the government the better.

I use to argue for hours with my mother over money and listen to her tell me about what it was like living in the Great Depression. She was born in 1921.

I did two college thesis papers, one on "Silver Money Politics, Nevada in the 1880s", and "The Causes of the Great Depression".

In my research I found an entire section of books on the history of banking at the university. Fascinating reading.

IF you really want to get me going then start there.

One of the text books on the history of banking that I read was written by one of the Federal Reserve Bank Chairmen at the time, who was in the middle of salvaging the bank system in the bank holidays of 1933.

I was struck by 2 statements in that book. One was his explanation or definition of "Money" as the "evidence of someone else's debt". Up to the point of reading that definition I had been uncomfortable will all the other so called definitions as they made no cents (that is pun!), note that Webster was not a banker or financier.

Note that if the debt is worthless, the money is worthless! Money is only valuable, only has worth or value, if the debt (promise) behind it is of value.

Oh, and he also explained that the FDIC was not created to protect depositors, but was created to protect free market bankers from their own greed. Prior to the FDIC (created in 1933 IIRC), a defunct bank's assets were immediately auctioned off to pay off depositors.

That worked real well in early 1933 when all the banks failed at once and all their US Treasury Notes (bank reserves) were all put on the auction block at the same time when no one could access their bank deposits. The result was a collapse in the value of US treasury Notes (similar to Federal reserve notes you use as money now). Those are the same US Treasury notes that in high demand world right now.

[WrenchMonkey]

Is it fair to say that "money" is created by the government, for use by the people; and "wealth" is created by the people, and then used by the government?

:dunno:

Robert

[Ecomike]

Is it fair to say that "money" is created by the government, for use by the people; and "wealth" is created by the people, and then used by the government?

:dunno:

Robert

In reality I think people, businesses and the government (which is simply a monopoly business in disguise), all can create and consume wealth. Some do one or the other better than others.

My point was, or sort of was that one of the monopolies the US Government reserves unto itself, is the sole right to CREATE US Legal tender money. The States once had that right, but have not had the right for a long time.

Now that I have said that, there is always an exception to every rule (the first rule of rules and absolutes is, there are no absolutes) wall street has been for years creating its own versions of money (stocks, bonds, etc), but none that are legal tender. Banks, under the Federal Reserve System of fractional reserves (under US Government control and limits) have had and do have the variable right to create money by lending out more than they have in reserves (deposits). Banks create reserves by collecting deposits and buying and holding US Treasury notes using stockholders capital and customers deposits to buy those Treasury notes. The banks earn the going rate of interest from the Treasury on those reserves.

If banks have lent money to their reserve limits and the FED increases those reserve limits (decreases the ratio of loans to reserves allowed), banks stop creating new money by lending money, and instead reduce the money supply by reducing loans and offering more for CDS and customers deposits to increase savings and thus increase bank reserves. That is how the FED, Government and Banks try to control inflation and deflation, by controlling the growth rate of the money supply, all with the aim of limiting the size and impact of recessions and expansion bubbles.

[Rob Mayercik]

Obama will call on citizens of all ages to serve America, by setting a goal that all middle school and high school students do 50 hours of community service a year and by developing a plan so that all college students who conduct 100 hours of community service receive a universal and fully refundable tax credit ensuring that the first $4,000 of their college education is completely free.

Obviously it's been too long since he went to college. Over my four years of undergraduate college, I spent between $3000 and $4000 just for books, and that was between 1993 and 1997. By now, book costs are likey over $4000 for the typical college student's Bacalaureate(sp?) program. Oh, and I guess that since this is a tax credit, students who do their service but don't end up filing tax returns don't get it?

How about we reel in the spiralling costs of primary/secondary education (dismantle the teacher's unions, cut and cap administrator pay and body count, institute real-world benefits and merit pay), and then use the mountains of surplus money to give students with good grades and/or community service a $30,000 scholarship to be used for education, with the option to spread it across four-5 years?

Higher education financial aid for U.S. citizens is a joke, and this is just another lousy punch line.

[pb_beaker]

When it gets to the point that the welfare recipients outnumber the workers, watch the party..
Im all for that party, time to lose the ole job and live off everyone else...:farmer:

[Ecomike]

Obviously it's been too long since he went to college. Over my four years of undergraduate college, I spent between $3000 and $4000 just for books, and that was between 1993 and 1997. By now, book costs are likey over $4000 for the typical college student's Bacalaureate(sp?) program. Oh, and I guess that since this is a tax credit, students who do their service but don't end up filing tax returns don't get it?

How about we reel in the spiralling costs of primary/secondary education (dismantle the teacher's unions, cut and cap administrator pay and body count, institute real-world benefits and merit pay), and then use the mountains of surplus money to give students with good grades and/or community service a $30,000 scholarship to be used for education, with the option to spread it across four-5 years?

Higher education financial aid for U.S. citizens is a joke, and this is just another lousy punch line.

Took my daughter to the Art Institute Saturday for a look see. Got to the last show and tell and heard the tuition was $455 per credit hour. My Chem Eng degree had 190 hours. That would have been at least a $90,000 degree at that rate, and the entry level pay for her major is only about $32,000.

I think she sees the advantages of the local CC now.

[TunaSoda]

I believe that a healthy educated workforce is the backbone of a strong economy and nation.
True, and if the system of education that was in place actually worked, we wouldn't have Obama as president in the first place because ignorance would be much less than it is now

[rock rash]

True, and if the system of education that was in place actually worked, we wouldn't have Obama as president in the first place because ignorance would be much less than it is nowThen why did he score highest with highly educated persons?

[Ecomike]

True, and if the system of education that was in place actually worked, we wouldn't have Obama as president in the first place because ignorance would be much less than it is now

Funny I was thinking that if the system of education that was in place actually worked, we wouldn't have had GWB "as president in the first place because ignorance would be much less than it is now"

[ehall]

Then why did he score highest with highly educated persons?
highly educated means they have been locked up in an ivory tower avoiding practical reality, ie writing papers about socialist economics while avoiding the practical issues of 100 million starved to death in the last century

dems always get the highly educated (isolated) and the lowly educated (unskilled)

[TunaSoda]

highly educated means they have been locked up in an ivory tower avoiding practical reality, ie writing papers about socialist economics while avoiding the practical issues of 100 million starved to death in the last century

dems always get the highly educated (isolated) and the lowly educated (unskilled)
lol

[muduck18]

How did this discussion get into the definition of money and "educated"?
Both sides of this argument are digging trenches and settling in for a long (Four possibly Eight year) battle. Ready to throw any $hit they can find over the fence.
This is a perfect example.
Its no secret that I dislike Obama and that I would have rather voted for GWB a third time than him.
But when it comes to issues like this the difference we have here is where the responsibility lies.
I know that this is a heavily arguable point, but the major difference between rep and Dem is who or whom is responsible for what.

Who is responsible for "bailing out" a large bank?
Who is responsible for "bailing out' my credit card debt?
What is the difference?

I feel that a community service requirement should be something that a parent, or school, or principal should setup.

But I have serious problems with the president sitting in Washington saying that my child must participate in community service.

Its not Slavery, its not a civil rights issue.

Those of us that have participated in community service are proud of it. And will most likely force our children to do the same.

But the people that believe it is the government's job to educate and care for their children will say its a good idea for the government to do it that way they don't have to be the bad person that is taking away from their child's PS3 time.

Who is responsible for an obese adult? The obese adult.
Who is responsible for an obese child? The child's guardian.

Democrats and Republican and socialists disagree. but when all these arguments come up thats what I see us argue about.

[IslanderOffRoad]

I agree with you 100%. Unfortunately we live in a world where people don't take responsibility for their actions, don't teach their children the difference between right and wrong, or how to be a part of their community.

[muduck18]

I agree with you 100%. Unfortunately we live in a world where people don't take responsibility for their actions, don't teach their children the difference between right and wrong, or how to be a part of their community.

Because so many people expect the Government to do it for them.

[Ecomike]

Who is responsible for an obese adult? The obese adult.
Who is responsible for an obese child? The child's guardian.



Part of the blame and responsibility also needs to go the FDA and US food industry.

It is my understanding they do not have the obesity problems in Europe that we have here. They also have much tighter control of food additives and content in Europe than we do here. The US food industry lobbyists have controlled the FDA here for decades now.

[JNickel101]

Part of the blame and responsibility also needs to go the FDA and US food industry.

It is my understanding they do not have the obesity problems in Europe that we have here. They also have much tighter control of food additives and content in Europe than we do here. The US food industry lobbyists have controlled the FDA here for decades now.

I'd also be willing to bet that Europe doesn't ban great workout supplements like Ephedra...

I believe the US WANTS fat people - they figure they'll die off sooner and maybe programs like Social Security will then fix themselves. Kinda like population control with diseases....but this time, with cholesterol and laziness :D

[Ecomike]

I'd also be willing to bet that Europe doesn't ban great workout supplements like Ephedra...

I believe the US WANTS fat people - they figure they'll die off sooner and maybe programs like Social Security will then fix themselves. Kinda like population control with diseases....but this time, with cholesterol and laziness :D

Unfortunately their may be something to that. Obese people use a hell of a lot more drugs for heart problems, diabetes, etc. It's all about consumers, sell them sugar, cause the problem, then sell them the solution (expensive drugs) to help with the problem. Ingenious.

[JNickel101]

Exactly. Why else ban a drug that causes GOOD (weight loss) yet keep one of the most lethal poisons LEGAL (nicotine)....its all about $$$ for the gov't. They make so much money taxing tobacco AND also regulating/taxing drugs to treat people once they develop lung cancer/emphazema (sp?). Brilliant, you are correct Ecomike.

[muduck18]

Part of the blame and responsibility also needs to go the FDA and US food industry.

It is my understanding they do not have the obesity problems in Europe that we have here. They also have much tighter control of food additives and content in Europe than we do here. The US food industry lobbyists have
controlled the FDA here for decades now.



So, before the FDA... what did people starve to death because the government wasn't there to make people fat?
Its the same argument. "The Government didn't tell me that the food was making me fat"
it doesn't take a government official to declare that you are getting fat.

Don't get me wrong I feel bad for people that can't pick up their car keys. but it doesn't mean that I feel guilty for allowing them to stay that way.

Oh and Europe? really? You know that is a Continent right not a country...

[IslanderOffRoad]

Unfortunately their may be something to that. Obese people use a hell of a lot more drugs for heart problems, diabetes, etc. It's all about consumers, sell them high fructose corn syrup, cause the problem, then sell them the solution (expensive drugs) to help with the problem. Ingenious.

fixed.

[IslanderOffRoad]

Because so many people expect the Government to do it for them.

True.