Just Thinking...

[thebrick]

Please consider the following…and let me know if I'm full of it…I have my boots on…

So, I was thinking about the design of the Cherokee XJs.

Wasn't this vehicle designed and engineered during the time when AMC was owned/in partnership with Renault?

If really look at the design of the XJ when it first came out…at that time, the design was 'unusual' compared to the other America counterparts…light weight, unibody, small, etc.

Also at that time…US car companies lagged behind European car companies when it came to designing light, strong and stiff unibody vehicles (with exception of the M-151 MUTT Military Jeep).

I've had the opportunity to drive many cars from Asian, Europe and US…and out of all the SUVs I've drive, the XJ seems to be the most 'sporty feeling'…almost has a 'European' feel to it…firm suspension, light, manuverable (relatively, speaking). I don't like to use the word 'carlike', but compared to other SUVs in the same class and years, the XJ does deliever the most 'carlike' ride and handling.

Of all the 'American' SUVs…from what I could gather, the only ones you see on European countries is the XJ…there are many websites with owners in Europe that have XJs. I don't think I've seen one with Explore or Blazer or Bronco, etc.

So, would there have been an XJ as we know it if AMC/Jeep wasn't with Renault at that time???

[GSequoia]

It's no secret that the XJ borrowed heavily from the European connection.

They used Renaults super computers to design it, they used Renaults wind tunnels to test it, they used the European trend of no fawking cupholders in it, etc, etc.

[IXNAYXJ]

the XJ seems to be the most 'sporty feeling'…almost has a 'European' feel to it…firm suspension, light, manuverable (relatively, speaking).Every time I drive a stock XJ, I'm shocked at how pleasent a vehicle it is to drive. Minimal body roll, responsive handling and damn decent steering...all taking into account it is a 4WD, of course. In contast, MY Jeep handles like a giraffe on mescaline...but that's mostly my own fault.

-----Matt-----

[Root Moose]

All correct. And also the Q-Link front suspension program was overseen by the same guy that oversaw the Renault F1 chassis program. Name escapes me...

Given the time it was designed the XJ was well ahead of it's competition. Even "snobbish" car magazines like Automobile that were usually quite negative against the American manufacturers loved the XJ.

I'd suspect that if AMC was left to their own devices we could have ended up with a body on frame machine that resembled the Grand Wagoneer in the same size package as the old Willys Wagon. Hmm, that may have worked too. Would have been leafs at all four corners likely.

That said, AMC through the late 60s was trying to get out of its "Rambler slump" of conservative cars and old fashioned engineering. The late sixties Javelin and Rebel Machine were quite sporty for the era and were unibody and somewhat "advanced" designs. The Gremlin, Hornet, Matador, Pacer, etc. as well. Say what you will about the styling of these last cars but at a detail design level they were pretty bleeding edge for an American manufacturer even by todays standards. If they had perhaps a Larry Shinoda or someone of that ilk on staff to style out some of the awkwardness of the designs they could/would have been really impressive cars.

AMC knew they had to do something radical to survive by the late 70s. They rolled the dice and won big time with the XJ and YJ but it wasn't enough to save the entire line. The weirdness of French cars didn't translate well to the North American market so there wasn't enough "bread being buttered" to keep AMC from collapsing without the buyout by Chrysler in 1986/7.

I think the Jeep line was well served by Chrysler. Look at the ZJ, WJ and TJ. No one can complain that they weren't Jeeps I'd think. After that though the line went to hell. Daimler influences or did too many of the old guard from the AMC and Chrysler days retire when Daimler bought them up?

[shortxjdoug]

I think the Jeep line was well served by Chrysler. Look at the ZJ, WJ and TJ. No one can complain that they weren't Jeeps I'd think. After that though the line went to hell. Daimler influences or did too many of the old guard from the AMC and Chrysler days retire when Daimler bought them up?

but you do have to admit that the "chrysler" jeeps have seen a degradation in quality from the amc designed xj. i know many owners specifically zj and wj because there are more complex systems to go wrong, that have been pushed to the edge of frustration with the poor quality of some of the major systems, tj's fare well because they share a simple platform like an xj and they all have inline motors

[Root Moose]

but you do have to admit that the "chrysler" jeeps have seen a degradation in quality from the amc designed xj. i know many owners specifically zj and wj because there are more complex systems to go wrong, that have been pushed to the edge of frustration with the poor quality of some of the major systems, tj's fare well because they share a simple platform like an xj and they all have inline motors
Well, in order to make a sweeping statement like that you need to define quality. ;)

The ZJ and WJ both are let down by stupid things. The "big ones" that I am aware of are the ChryCo transmissions in the ZJ and the poorly executed HVAC controller on the WJ. Thankfully both issues can be addressed if you are the type to really like the given platform and want to fix the issues for once and for all so that you can keep the vehicle.

The ChryCo tranny can be rebuilt to a higher aftermarket spec and become "bulletproof" while the HVAC controller for the WJ can be replaced by newer/later modded circuit boards and/or modified by the owner to be more robust if you know electronics at all. A buddy has a `99 WJ and he showed me the fooked/burned HVAC controller out of his WJ. Really stupid stuff that could be rebuilt fairly easily IIRC.

I haven't heard the V8s in the ZJ or WJ to be bad engines. MPG must suck if you enjoy the gas pedal but I haven't heard any real complaints about them otherwise.

[Starboard M]

They used Renaults super computers to design it, they used Renaults wind tunnels to test it, they used the European trend of no fawking cupholders in it, etc, etc.
:soapbox:

I freakin hate that. Damn.

[Matthew Currie]

While I'm inclined to agree that the Renault partnership probably had a good deal of input into the design of the XJ, I believe it's important to remember too that this was the first and only Jeep designed during AMC's ownership of the brand, so that might be a factor in its uniqueness. AMC (if you count Nash as its progenitor) had been building unibodies since 1941, so it isn't surprising that they would come up with a unibody as their first effort.

[RichP]

They cut too many corners and used too many low bidders on the ZJ and XJ, example is the evaporator. That heater box has to be the FIRST thing that goes in the interior and the rest is added over the top, you would think they would use the best one they could but nooooo, cheap shit and big bucks repair, in fact it's the third most expensive repair labor wise in the entire vehicle.
The TJ they did the same thing, they used a cheap ass plastic pin to control the flapper for the defroster in the heater box, again like the XJ the heate box is the first thing to go inside the body on assembly, another big repair.
The ZJ has the same issue with the evaporator and the same big bucks repair.
The TJ, XJ, YJ, WJ were already done and ready for production before Diamler took them over so you can't really blame them.
MB does some stupid stuff too, the SLK for example, the hydraulic ram for the retracting hard top, thats a $3500 repair, 16 hours of labor, darn near the whole interior has to come out to get at down on the floor in trunk/passsenger compartment area where it's mounted.
Almost all the other stuff I can deal with but having both XJ and TJ's [with a bad heater/defroster flapper] I'm just pretty peeved about it...

[Root Moose]

Interesting. For the XJ interior bits - are these the AMC interior, the ChryCo interior, or both?

The 97+ interior got a completely redesigned HVAC system so just wondering which it applies to.

Let's not forget the aluminum Dana 44 used in the WJ.

[Ramsey]

Every time I drive a stock XJ, I'm shocked at how pleasent a vehicle it is to drive. Minimal body roll, responsive handling and damn decent steering...all taking into account it is a 4WD, of course. In contast, MY Jeep handles like a giraffe on mescaline...but that's mostly my own fault.

-----Matt-----
You couldnt be more right.

[bajacalal]

The "French connection." You hit on something that others including myself have also noticed and discussed. The XJ does not look like American trucks (or cars) of the same era. Renault was heavily involved with AMC/Jeep when the XJ was created and participated in its design and engineering. My opinion is that the XJ was an attempt to make a vehicle based on the American SUV concept but something that could actually be marketed sucessfully outside North America. So the XJ got good handling, sharper lines, unibody, smaller engines that would have more appeal to Europeans than traditional American vehicles but proved quite sucessful in the U.S.

To answer your question I doubt there would be any XJs without Renault. The AMC company was barely alive when they partnered with Renault. AMC has serious problems which Renault was unable to eliminate and they sold the company at a loss to Chrysler. They did not have the resources at the time to develop the XJ without Renault and I doubt the other American companies would launch such a vehicle (I don't think the Bronco II counts).

Oh, and cupholders diddn't used to be common on any cars like they are now.

Root, the XJ interior isin't very different (there some few exceptions like seats, the steering column and ugly 80s colors like burgundy) between earlier and later (1996) XJs. So I would say theres a lot of AMC designed stuff even in later XJs.

[shortxjdoug]

Root, the XJ interior isin't very different (there some few exceptions like seats, the steering column and ugly 80s colors like burgundy) .


whats so bad about burgundy?.........................:D

[rocklandxjer]

i kinda like that burgundy interior, i think it looks nice...

[RichP]

i kinda like that burgundy interior, i think it looks nice...

Yea, it just does not go with ANY of the outside colors they offered. LOL.....
Burgandy, it's so 70's....

[midnightrunxj]

What where the final build # for cherokees??? 5 million???lol

[Root Moose]

Don't laugh, it was quite high - but not that high. IIRC there is a listing of numbers per year over the production run over at jeepforum.com.