Police shooting. Good shoot or Bad shoot?

[Trail-Axe]

Here are the videos that Tommyr (from another thread) was referring to. In this first video it appears that the police shoot a man in the back for no apparent reason. How many of us would have crucified this cop for shooting an unarmed man in the back?http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMr-fPNVqks (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMr-fPNVqks)


Here is another video of the same incident, only from another officer's patrol vehicle. In this video, we see that the officer shooting is now defending his partner and himself, of what he (at that time) believed was an armed suspect pointing a weapon at an officer. Notice the officer duck as if he was going to be shot.

I don’t know about you all, but I believe this officer’s use of deadly force was appropriate, considering what was going through his mind at that time. "Pursuit of suspect, suspect resisting arrest (yes walking away is resisting arrest), partner ducking as if he saw a gun pointed at him after suspect hands were at his front waist band, ETC." http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pt4XijzNzQg&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pt4XijzNzQg&feature=related)

Be sure to check out some of the comments posted to the video.

[kdailey4315]

I think it was justified. You can see the LEO on the right shoot as soon as the guy turned around and his partner ducked. Also, we have no idea what led up to this high speed chase, how long it had been going on, and what the perp's reaction was when they tried to stop him before the chase.

[ZacSquatch]

In a situation like that, and the way cops are trained, I would have instinctivly shot as well. Not something to take chances on.

[ECKSJAY]

This is old and busted. Good shoot.


Christians 1
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[KingOfTheHill]

In situations like this, i usually agree with the cops decision (went through training to become one).... but i have seen some stuff that makes me really dislike cops....

the Physical motion by the suspect was in a way that if it was a gun, the officer on the left would have been in some serious trouble.

but knowing how things work, they will both be fired and sued and charged with a hate crime since the suspect was black...

JOe

[8Mud]

Seems like a good shoot to me, heck they have to save their taser batteries for mouthy motorists. Shooting him in the back six times seems like a reasonable response for showing his arse in public and brandishing a cell phone.
I wonder what he was running from and just what his initial crime against society was?

[Starboard M]

I think the shooting was justified, but Im wondering how it took at least 6 shots to finally hit the guy.


From 10 feet away, a human profile is still pretty big. Also have to love the one handed firing from the guy on the left.

[ECKSJAY]

I think the shooting was justified, but Im wondering how it took at least 6 shots to finally hit the guy.


From 10 feet away, a human profile is still pretty big. Also have to love the one handed firing from the guy on the left.

It's not Hollywood. :) Empty magazine whilst checking to see if the threat is neutralized.

Is there something wrong with one-handed firing? I didn't get the memo.

[ZacSquatch]

Most gun fights involving cops happen within 9 yards.. and there are still a ton of misses.

Cant remember where, but cop entered a doorway, a guy with a pistol was in another doorway 3 yards away, both emptied clips and nobody was hit...
Of course they probly both ducked behind the doors and just blindly shot out of them.

[JoesXJ]

averages say its the rule of 3....3 yards, 3 seconds, 3 rounds.

[UNCC_99XJ]

Absolutely it was justified.

Let see, dumbass runs from the cops. Cops block him in a parking lot, and get out with their guns drawn, as is normal. Dumbass walks off like they're just going to magically go away, even starts to look like he's going to swing at the cop who's trying to arrest him shortly after getting out of his car, which is long before the shooting. Dumbass continues to walk off, and then makes another fast move back like he's about to start shooting at the other officer. Officer ducks thinking he's about to be shot, and his partner starts shooting to protect him, while more than likely thinking the same thing.

Not a thing wrong here. I think any normal person in the officer's situation would have done the same thing, especially based off of instinct. I know I would have.

[METAL MONKEY]

a friend of mine was shot 3 weeks ago while on duty. he was on a foot chase and the suspect turned around and fired. he was hit in the abdomen and in the head. his vest took care of the ab shot, but the one that hit him in the head went in above his left eye and out behind his left ear. he was put into a induced coma for 3 days, and was slowly brought back out. through many, many prayers, he has been recovering very well. just monday he has began to speak again and is in rehab already. he has good movement on his left side, but only has a little bit of feeling on the right.

unfortunately, he is in indiana and i'm in colorado, so i haven't been able to visit yet. i'll be going back in october. however, i believe if he had the oppurtunity or was aware the suspect was carrying, he would have fired. you never know what the suspect is capable of, and i'd rather be on the safe side and shoot than to hesitate and be shot.

[Trail-Axe]

a friend of mine was shot 3 weeks ago while on duty. he was on a foot chase and the suspect turned around and fired. he was hit in the abdomen and in the head. his vest took care of the ab shot, but the one that hit him in the head went in above his left eye and out behind his left ear. he was put into a induced coma for 3 days, and was slowly brought back out. through many, many prayers, he has been recovering very well. just Monday he has began to speak again and is in rehab already. he has good movement on his left side, but only has a little bit of feeling on the right.

Breaks my heart to hear stuff like this. Fuel90, I will pray for him as well (please send me a PM with his name).

[crazyjim]

Seems like a good shoot to me, heck they have to save their taser batteries for mouthy motorists. Shooting him in the back six times seems like a reasonable response for showing his arse in public and brandishing a cell phone.
I wonder what he was running from and just what his initial crime against society was?
You are SUCH a moron. A cell phone? Did you not see him shoot? :laugh: God I hope you get educated soon.

[8Mud]

You are SUCH a moron. A cell phone? Did you not see him shoot? :laugh: God I hope you get educated soon.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdfnSpCEuy0

I don't know about moron, I actually prefer facetious arsehole. It's way to late for much more education, at my age we are just happy to keep whatever brains we got.

[Starboard M]

It's not Hollywood. :) Empty magazine whilst checking to see if the threat is neutralized.

Is there something wrong with one-handed firing? I didn't get the memo.
Granted, I have never been in a situation that even remotely resembles that one, but I would like to think I would be able to hit him more then those officers.



The one handed firing is fine in a given situation, but from my untrained eye, two hands would have been better. More control of aim, and recoil which both officers seemed to have trouble with. From personal experience killing pieces of paper, anything bigger then a .22 is hard to hold one handed while firing.

Like you said, its not hollywood.

[JNickel101]

Nothing wrong with emptying your clip....

Its when you stop, reload, and start firing again that gets you into trouble :D

[Art Triggs]

sadly, it almost looks like suicide by cop. I think those cops did the right thing, they were given no opportunity or choices from what I saw in those clips. I read a trasnscript once , an officer was asked why he fired 6 rounds at a suspect (they had a knife)
The officer's reply was "because thats all the gun holds" (S&W .38) (the suspect did not get back up or try to pick up the knife again.

[Kittrell]

Most gun fights involving cops happen within 9 yards.. and there are still a ton of misses.

Cant remember where, but cop entered a doorway, a guy with a pistol was in another doorway 3 yards away, both emptied clips and nobody was hit...
Of course they probly both ducked behind the doors and just blindly shot out of them.

Magazines even.......................;)

[Darky]

Granted, I have never been in a situation that even remotely resembles that one, but I would like to think I would be able to hit him more then those officers.



The one handed firing is fine in a given situation, but from my untrained eye, two hands would have been better. More control of aim, and recoil which both officers seemed to have trouble with. From personal experience killing pieces of paper, anything bigger then a .22 is hard to hold one handed while firing.

Like you said, its not hollywood.
Firing under stress is waaaaaay different than firing at a target. I bet a lot of these cops are good shots on the range, but when you might die adrenalin kicks in screws you up...I know in the USMC, I'd shoot mid to high sharpshooter all week when it didn't count and then come qual day I'd suck...AT that's not even that much stress.

[Trail-Axe]

Firing under stress is waaaaaay different than firing at a target. I bet a lot of these cops are good shots on the range, but when you might die adrenalin kicks in screws you up...I know in the USMC, I'd shoot mid to high sharpshooter all week when it didn't count and then come qual day I'd suck...AT that's not even that much stress.

Good point Darky. If person normally shoots a 12" group with a pistol at say 10 yards (at the range), then double that group size in a gun fight. Some factors that figure in are physical fitness, frequency of time spent at the range, time spent shooting while moving, shooting moving targets, moving while shooting moving targets, and time spent shooting with an elevated heart rate. A persons preconceived ideas of using deadly force may also factor in for some folks.

Contrary to popular belief, many street cops lack basic shooting skills, and their range time is often very minimal. Some departments require their officers to shoot twice a month, some once a month, and many only shoot twice a year.

[Hammered]

cell phone or not... even if he was "high on drugs" he was a danger to the public and needed to be brought down... 6 shots or 1000. Whatever it takes to keep LAW ABIDING PEOPLE Safe.

I would have to say, it might be a LITTLE safer if they used the shooting tazer... so there arent stray bullets wizzing around.

[msrorysddad]

It does not matter what he had in his hand. He was running from the police, resisting arrest, and combative. They should shoot more people that act that way. The reason some in our society choose to act in such a manner is that they can and do most often get away with little or no punishment. The "what if" game is a joke, what if they saw he had a phone, bla, bla, bla... He was committing a criminal act, he was wrong, it is his fault. The fact that some will try to demonize the police for the actions taken that night just shows the extent to which our society has devolved. He picked the outlaw trail, it is often cold lonely and deadly. As for the amount of shots fired, take your pistol to the range run around, think of taxes, get all pumped up, pick up your piece and fire away. As for one handed, I shoot from the hip one handed and am as accurate at that as with both. We must remember, this was no range, you don't have time to clear the firing line, or position yourself. I pray for the officer and his family, to take another's life, no matter how justified is nothing a man should wish for. I'm sure he's second guessing his actions, and will untill he dies.

[FordGuy]

Good point Darky. If person normally shoots a 12" group with a pistol at say 10 yards (at the range), then double that group size in a gun fight. Some factors that figure in are physical fitness, frequency of time spent at the range, time spent shooting while moving, shooting moving targets, moving while shooting moving targets, and time spent shooting with an elevated heart rate. A persons preconceived ideas of using deadly force may also factor in for some folks.

Contrary to popular belief, many street cops lack basic shooting skills, and their range time is often very minimal. Some departments require their officers to shoot twice a month, some once a month, and many only shoot twice a year.

I used to ride dirt bikes with a guy who was in the Brea Vice Narcotics dept, he was also the range master. He used to take me and my wife there for practice all the time, he use to make fun of me because I could never hit the moving targets worth a crap, would empty 15 rounds with my Beretta 92 and maybe hit the target twice, and never a kill shot. He would say "you think thats hard, try it while your chasing a guy and your adrenaline is pumping, you cant hit anything!" He always said he never worried about being hit in a foot chase!

[JoesXJ]

....If person normally shoots a 12" group with a pistol at say 10 yards (at the range), then .....

....then they should have to practice MUCH MORE or have thier gun taken away.

[Trail-Axe]

I used to ride dirt bikes with a guy who was in the Brea Vice Narcotics dept, he was also the range master. He used to take me and my wife there for practice all the time, he use to make fun of me because I could never hit the moving targets worth a crap, would empty 15 rounds with my Beretta 92 and maybe hit the target twice, and never a kill shot. He would say "you think that's hard, try it while your chasing a guy and your adrenaline is pumping, you cant hit anything!" He always said he never worried about being hit in a foot chase!

I here that! The bad thing about the foot chase is when the suspect jumps a high wall; the officer jumps over in the same spot and there is a gun waiting, instead of a suspect running. That will put ya into retirement right quick, if not the grave!
:hang:

[Trail-Axe]

....then they should have to practice MUCH MORE or have thier gun taken away.

I agree, but many departments have had to make budget cuts, and range time is one place those cuts get made for many smaller departments.

[bjoehandley]

I agree, but many departments have had to make budget cuts, and range time is one place those cuts get made for many smaller departments.

I'd be willing to spend a little of my own money on something like that if my ass was on the line like that of a cop.


BTW, you need a Hard to say option for this one.

[Trail-Axe]

BTW, you need a Hard to say option for this one.

Not if ya put yourself in the shooters boots. Very good shoot IMHO. :)

[GhostDakota]

It was completely justified IMO after seeing that second video.

[8Mud]

It does not matter what he had in his hand. He was running from the police, resisting arrest, and combative. They should shoot more people that act that way. The reason some in our society choose to act in such a manner is that they can and do most often get away with little or no punishment.

Seems fair to me, one in the forehead for arguing with the meter maid.
Morality 101, guy is dead, beyond pain, who has his death really hurt. The people he leaves behind. The people who actually hurt the most are the ones the Cop has never meant or likely seen.
The only reason more Cops don't get picked off by snippers, isn't fear, their training and skills, it's more likely the people many harass on a daily basis are more moral than they are.
Also some simple logic, people are wired for one of three responses, flight, freeze or fight.
So running is wrong, you take away that option, that only leaves two. Freeze is the ideal option, but who really knows what a persons instincts are going to cause to happen, before reason kicks in.
Anybody who says they have never had a momentary lapse in judgment and/or never done anything illegal, is lying through there teeth. So in effect it's just luck, you haven't been shot six times in the back by somebody trained and paid to have better judgment than you do at the moment.
A cop stops you, your pissed, the adrenalin is flowing, you reach into your breast pocket for your drivers license and get shot half a dozen times.
I've been pulled over enough times to know, that 50% or more is bullchit. So in effect the Police have precipitated a situation that could get you dead for no good reason, on many occasions.
Somebody sooner or later is going to have to balance human rights with Police rights. I for one don't think a Policeman's life is any more valuable than mine, or my wifes, or my sons, or my daughters.

[8Mud]

It was completely justified IMO after seeing that second video.
I still want to know what they were chasing him for in the first place? I noticed he had a broken tail light.

[Ray H]

I for one don't think a Policeman's life is any more valuable than mine, or my wifes, or my sons, or my daughters.

Grrr.
Youve just hit one of my pet peeves.
I hate that killing a police officer is an automatic capital offense but killing john Q public isnt. Talk about a slap in the face. Many years ago, when I carried a badge, my life was somehow worth more than it is now????? How stupid is that.

[8Mud]

Grrr.
Youve just hit one of my pet peeves.
I hate that killing a police officer is an automatic capital offense but killing john Q public isnt. Talk about a slap in the face. Many years ago, when I carried a badge, my life was somehow worth more than it is now????? How stupid is that.

I was once invited over to do a shoot with the German Border Police. We got in a little late, got our range briefing, but really didn't get a brief on the target scenario's. We shot first, then the Border Police. We all failed that round. My target had every round in the ten ring, middle of mass. Germans had all of there shots below the waist. I remember thinking at the time, that's dumb. I've gotten older, wiser and a bit more moral in my old age.
We eventually cleaned their clock's, once we understood the rules of engagement.
In the video that guy was standing in front of a picture window, at what looked like a market. Good shoot, bad shoot, dumb shoot.
I once had a 6 point buck in my scope, he was feeding so there wasn't any rush. I scoped him again and noticed a flicker of light behind him. I eventually figured out it was some guys TV 4-500 meters behind the buck and behind a pile of brush. There was a time I would have pulled the trigger the instant I had the cross hairs on target. That Buck had to wait for another day.
If somebody would have gotten shot and died in that store, would the Cop been charged and convicted?

[Trail-Axe]

8Mud wrote:If somebody would have gotten shot and died in that store, would the Cop been charged and convicted?

8Mud/ Ray H
You make some valid points, as do many others. Personally, I believe police officers are public servants. They are paid by our tax dollars to do the job they have sworn to do. They are not above the law, just well versed in it. Because of this fact, they are held to a higher standard by the citizens they serve, and the governments they represent.

The policeman should represent society's best, though not all do, and very few do all the time. A police officer has dedicated himself to protecting and serving the public in which he lives. A felonious assault against a policeman is in effect an assault against us all. So I personally believe that those who murder police officers should have an E-ticked ride to their final Judgement in front of God Himself. Those who felonious assault policemen have no regard for the human rights of society.

It is often easy to second guess an officers split second decision made in the field from the comfort of ones easy chair; it happens often. In the video in question, the officer was justified to use deadly force. This officer believed that his partner was in harms way when the suspect they were attempting to apprehend turned and motioned as if he were going to shoot him. If an innocent person would have been shot and killed, the officer would not be liable. Officers are exempt from liability when they are defending their own life, or the life of another from serious bodily harm and or death (but exempt or not, most officers would be deeply grieved if the innocent people they are sworn to protect were injured or killed).

It can be a very tough job, an officer is usually at a disadvantage when contacting people on a daily basis. He is not afforded the luxury of a well thought out plan, and unlike deer hunting (deer don't shoot back), he is not always able to let the big one get away and wait for another. He is sworn to protect, and this means he can not let a felon go, and wish himself better luck next time.

As far as an officer's life being worth more then those we know and love; I would not say more, but worth just as much. They may not protect us all from every crime committed, but they do play a vital role in our society in the prevention and apprehension of those who do not play well with others. ;)

[Darky]

I think taking someone's someone's life ought to be a capital offense, no matter what. Cop, Civilian, military, you murder someone, you die too. The only exceptions would be manslaughter, ie unintentional killing, or negligence. However I'd make it hard to pursue a manslaughter or negligent homicide charge. If there was any motive, any shadow of a doubt that you didn't mean to, it's going up as murder, and if convicted you're dying as well.

[Trail-Axe]

I think taking someones life ought to be a capital offense, no matter what. Cop, Civilian, military, you murder someone, you die too. The only exceptions would be manslaughter, ie unintentional killing, or negligence. However I'd make it hard to pursue a manslaughter or negligent homicide charge. If there was any motive, any shadow of a doubt that you didn't mean to, it's going up as murder, and if convicted you're dying as well.

Amen. Dead murders are no longer a threat.
:hang: :skull2: :eyes:

[msrorysddad]

excuse me 8 who said arguing? If you choose to flee, and fight, be damned, die. He wasn't in a tiff with a parking maid. He chose to run in the largest weapon a civilian can own (auto) when he was stopped, he exited the ride took off and began fighting. Lets not stray off into the twilight zone. He was a crook, to make up excuses as to why he should have been saved from a fate he well chose is once again to give up the rights of others for the "rights" of one. HE WAS/IS A CROOK. Feel sorry for his loved ones, yes, and no, I didn't raise him, some good people have bad kin. So that argument also doesn't hold up well. As far as whose life is worth more, well boys and girls give me productive members of society as neighbors, and move all the crooks and crackheads to your street. I figure if you run and fight the police need to stand and take aim, and stop the fight and the flight. To say that we all could have been smoked, well, if I ever acted like that, let's go, kill away. Remember guys we're dealing with reality. I FEEL like this kid shoulda been saved from this situation, and lived to be an active member of the community. However my feelings are far removed from fact. I honestly believe the police should be more like the Texas DPS of old. They handed down ass kickins, liberally. Sounds harsh 'till you realize that back then they were and should be held to a higher standard, they for the most part were the "good guys". I know more than one recipient of a beat down of old, and they all told me the next time the red and blue was behind them they did as they were told. Do you think, see here I go second gussing, do you think if when he got out and acted as he did a severe beat down would have saved him? Remember, it's hard to do much when your trying to recieve a beatin, believe me, I've tried. Love ya'll

[8Mud]

excuse me 8 who said arguing? If you choose to flee, and fight, be damned, die. He wasn't in a tiff with a parking maid. He chose to run in the largest weapon a civilian can own (auto) when he was stopped, he exited the ride took off and began fighting. Lets not stray off into the twilight zone. He was a crook, to make up excuses as to why he should have been saved from a fate he well chose is once again to give up the rights of others for the "rights" of one. HE WAS/IS A CROOK. Feel sorry for his loved ones, yes, and no, I didn't raise him, some good people have bad kin. So that argument also doesn't hold up well. As far as whose life is worth more, well boys and girls give me productive members of society as neighbors, and move all the crooks and crackheads to your street. I figure if you run and fight the police need to stand and take aim, and stop the fight and the flight. To say that we all could have been smoked, well, if I ever acted like that, let's go, kill away. Remember guys we're dealing with reality. I FEEL like this kid shoulda been saved from this situation, and lived to be an active member of the community. However my feelings are far removed from fact. I honestly believe the police should be more like the Texas DPS of old. They handed down ass kickins, liberally. Sounds harsh 'till you realize that back then they were and should be held to a higher standard, they for the most part were the "good guys". I know more than one recipient of a beat down of old, and they all told me the next time the red and blue was behind them they did as they were told. Do you think, see here I go second gussing, do you think if when he got out and acted as he did a severe beat down would have saved him? Remember, it's hard to do much when your trying to recieve a beatin, believe me, I've tried. Love ya'll

My point was, everybody, without exception, everybody period, has made a bad judgment call at one time or another, should they be fatal (or cause serious injury)? I don't see the polices job as helping Darwin out. The guy wasn't attacking, he was fleeing, bad judgment sure, Capital offense not in my mind, no way.
Stuff happens and people die, trying to avoid the preventable deaths should in my mind, be a moral objective. Deadly force should be used as a last resort. Unnecessary excessive force causes more problems than it solves.
Fleeing felons are another thing and require different rules.
I still say many Police over react, make hormone driven mistakes that a reasonable person would expect them to avoid.
Radio ahead and block off the streets. Use your binoculars to get his license plate number, make of car and any identifying marks like dents etc. Take casts of the tire tread, if they drive in the dirt. Pictures if you can, I have a dandy camera. The pictures can be enhanced radically. Apprehend about half, deter the other half (scare the hell out of them), enough in my book.
Just an opinion, but running some apparently mildly retarded, likely stoned person to ground, then shooting him dead, is poor procedure and likely causes way more problems in the long run than it will ever solve.
I still say thumping or shooting the runners is eventually going to breed fighters. I for one am happier when they run and don't fight.
Is it possible, if you drive the number of runners down, you may be increasing the kamikaze's?
There is no defense against a decent shot from a rifle at 200 meters. Most everybody is a creature of habit and can be ambushed.
In my experience, Cowboy cops and the incompetent often die young and should be weeded out before they die or do more damage than good.
Who was it that said a fearful population is a dangerous population? Montague I think.

[Ray H]

excuse me 8 who said arguing? If you choose to flee, and fight, be damned, die. He wasn't in a tiff with a parking maid. He chose to run in the largest weapon a civilian can own (auto) when he was stopped, he exited the ride took off and began fighting. Lets not stray off into the twilight zone. He was a crook, to make up excuses as to why he should have been saved from a fate he well chose is once again to give up the rights of others for the "rights" of one. HE WAS/IS A CROOK. Feel sorry for his loved ones, yes, and no, I didn't raise him, some good people have bad kin. So that argument also doesn't hold up well. As far as whose life is worth more, well boys and girls give me productive members of society as neighbors, and move all the crooks and crackheads to your street. I figure if you run and fight the police need to stand and take aim, and stop the fight and the flight. To say that we all could have been smoked, well, if I ever acted like that, let's go, kill away. Remember guys we're dealing with reality. I FEEL like this kid shoulda been saved from this situation, and lived to be an active member of the community. However my feelings are far removed from fact. I honestly believe the police should be more like the Texas DPS of old. They handed down ass kickins, liberally. Sounds harsh 'till you realize that back then they were and should be held to a higher standard, they for the most part were the "good guys". I know more than one recipient of a beat down of old, and they all told me the next time the red and blue was behind them they did as they were told. Do you think, see here I go second gussing, do you think if when he got out and acted as he did a severe beat down would have saved him? Remember, it's hard to do much when your trying to recieve a beatin, believe me, I've tried. Love ya'll

Have you got a crystal ball? Its funny when someone says the cop is to blame, the common reaction is "you can't say that by just watching a few seconds of video" but its somehow ok to say the "criminal" is to blame by watching the same few seconds of video.
I dont mind who a person sides with but at least be fair about what you see and dont see.
This isnt directed at you in particular msrorysddad. Its just a general statement directed at those who were adamant about people drawing conclusions from a short internet video.

[msrorysddad]

individuals like you two slay me. You both are basically saying (as I read it) let them go, or try some alternative form of apprehension, like say Buck Rogers might possess. He wasn't fighting? did he look as if he were standing and arguing, or did he swing his arm, as if he had a weapon, or is that a smudge on my monitor? Make up all the excuses you will, they only breed more criminals. Catch them later? Hell, let's just abolish all laws and we can fend for ourselves? It seem that a certain portion of our society has fallen under the false belief that every one's a "good person" they are just suffering from bad decisions. I say, B.S. Stop making excuses for the way others act, it just allows them to keep making bad choices. As for the "cowboy" cops? to protect yourself and others makes you somehow a rogue? As I said ABOLISH all laws, that way we will not have to worry about the bad cops. I'm all for anarchy. Once again I will state that "feelings" have very little to do with reality. I truly "feel" like the guy should'a been saved, given a good education, and become a productive part of society. However reality strikes me, when I remember, I went to school, got a job and have a life. I in my life had choices to make, and made them, some better than others. Once again let's deal with fact, not feeling. A crystal ball? What I saw would get you shot did you only watch the sot, or did you see him, flee, fight, then fall? Last time, reality, not "feelings". It is a bad thing when anyone dies, however, you must peel off the onion layers of feelings, and get to reality, to let him go, or to subdue him. Those were the choices. He was a CROOK, he alone made the choices to say he wasn't makes no logical sense, dress a pig up, it's still a pig. His actions made him a criminal, not the police. If I had a crystal ball, I could work on your police force and we could use our feelings to stop crime in it's tracks. Feelings vs. reality. Love ya'll.

[Ray H]

individuals like you two slay me. You both are basically saying (as I read it) let them go,

You read it wrong. I went on record by voting that I thought it was a good shoot.
My last post was a little off topic and not really directed at you (thought I said that). It was to point out that the cop defenders in this thread and others have made a point of saying that you cant judge what is actually happening by what you see in a short video, there is more to the story. My point was to turn that around on them. If you cant judge what is happening by a short video, then why are we so confident that this is a good shooting.

[Darky]

I'm confident its a good shooting because we saw more than one angle on it, and in the second angle it shows the guy gesturing as though he had a weapon. Whatever it was, he motioned as if to draw a weapon and threaten the police. They fired in defense of self, and whoever he may come across if they let him go.
The bike guy, we only see one angle, but given the cops testimony afterward, I lean more towards the biker's side because based on what we see, the cop's testimony was blatantly contradicted by the sight of him walking over to the bikers and delivering a forearm shiver to him...

[Ray H]

Youve probably noticed, and I touched on this in another thread, I prefer to error on the side of the accused. Im real careful about taking the freedom and liberties away from people willy nilly. When I watch these little video snippets, if there is any doubt in my mind (you know, the old "beyond a shadow of a doubt" thing) I will almost always side with the accused. Thats not because I want guilty people walking the street, its not because Im a defender of guilty people, its because I DO NOT want to see an innocent person suffer because of someone elses mistake.
This whole "arrest them all and let the judge sort them out" or worse yet "kill them all and let god sort them out" attitude bothers be.

[msrorysddad]

I will go on record and state. I believe our legal system is too focused on money, profit, at the expense of "the people" (everyone, other than the politically connected). The way it is I feel like runnin, cause every time I get stopped, I get ticketed for somethin, or worse arrested because I choose to carry a "leafy green substance", they actually described it like that once, I was offended, and told them it was flowers, they didn't laugh. I believe the root cause for most of the trouble we have in the world today, is no accountability, and no hope. The politicians see a way to make money, ie. prisons (funding), tickets (a tax). What we are left with is a guy runnin 'cause he can't afford to get out of it. Wouldn't we do better educating, not this sad get 'em through so we get our funding. How about less emphasis on "bling" in Hollywood, and every store I enter, and more emphasis on honesty, and integrity? The gangsta mentality heaped on us at every turn. People "rappers" actually falsify their "street cred" by sayin they were in the pen? OOPS, was I ranting? How about I end with personal accountability, honor, and integrity. I can agree with that. Love ya'll

[x2elite]

I've been through police academy twice, once to be a Wildlife Officer (actually much more in depth then regular police academy), and again when I transferred to another agency, and worked for the Parole in a fugitive recovery team. I think these officers were totally justified.

Whether or not an officer is justified in shooting actually has little to do with whether or not the suspect really had a weapon, and or that the officer's life or his partners life was in actual danger. What it depends on, is the officer's perception of whether or not he or his partner was in danger at that point in time. In court all it takes is a jury to determine that the officer did what any other "Reasonable" person would have done in that same scenario. I have been in a situation where I had to exchange gunfire with suspects, and I have been to court over it several times. I have also been sued for acting in the line of duty numerous times as well. However, I have never been found in the wrong, and I have never lost a civil suit either, because I always did things by the books.

And what Darky said about firing under stress or duress being much more difficult than firing at the firing range is exactly right. I was qualified as an expert with my sidearm at the firing range pretty much every time we went out. On our Stress Shooting Course I regularly scored about 85%, much lower than what it takes to qualify as expert marksman. Most of the officers I worked with could qualify easily every time at the range, but many had trouble shooting more than 50% scores on the stress shooting course. If you think you can do better.... set yourself up a tactical course with electronically controlled paintball guns in different locations to fire back at you...... then run 300 yards before you start the course...... move through the course, and elminate every target without being hit, and do it all within a 1 minute time frame from the time you finish your 300 yard dash..... then come back and post up how you scored.

[8Mud]

I've been through police academy twice, once to be a Wildlife Officer (actually much more in depth then regular police academy), and again when I transferred to another agency, and worked for the Parole in a fugitive recovery team. I think these officers were totally justified.

Whether or not an officer is justified in shooting actually has little to do with whether or not the suspect really had a weapon, and or that the officer's life or his partners life was in actual danger. What it depends on, is the officer's perception of whether or not he or his partner was in danger at that point in time. In court all it takes is a jury to determine that the officer did what any other "Reasonable" person would have done in that same scenario. I have been in a situation where I had to exchange gunfire with suspects, and I have been to court over it several times. I have also been sued for acting in the line of duty numerous times as well. However, I have never been found in the wrong, and I have never lost a civil suit either, because I always did things by the books.

And what Darky said about firing under stress or duress being much more difficult than firing at the firing range is exactly right. I was qualified as an expert with my sidearm at the firing range pretty much every time we went out. On our Stress Shooting Course I regularly scored about 85%, much lower than what it takes to qualify as expert marksman. Most of the officers I worked with could qualify easily every time at the range, but many had trouble shooting more than 50% scores on the stress shooting course. If you think you can do better.... set yourself up a tactical course with electronically controlled paintball guns in different locations to fire back at you...... then run 300 yards before you start the course...... move through the course, and elminate every target without being hit, and do it all within a 1 minute time frame from the time you finish your 300 yard dash..... then come back and post up how you scored.

I guess there is a fine line between a justifiable shooting and a summary execution. I guess due process is whatever the officer decides it is and how he writes it up afterwards. And then how the lawyers argue it later in court.
There is a difference in having never being found in the wrong (peer judgment) and being wrong.
I'm also an expert pistol shot, I walk on the range cold, pull my pistol out and put the first round in the ten ring at 25 meters. I'm rarely the quickest draw and shoot, but often the most accurate. I've also been shot at and hit, I guess that qualifies as stress drill.
I'm an expert rifle shot. I typically put two out of three in the same hole with one touching at a hundred yards, three in an inch circle at two hundred and again often two touching.
I may watch a Buck for weeks (months, years) before taking my shot. If he is in my scope I own him, no rush. I study his habits and take my shot when and where I'm ready.
I taught hasty demolitions, what they now call IED's, in the military, likely before you were born. Probably spent more time snaking through the jungle or brush than you've been walking upright.
I've had my assed kicked, it always took three or more to do it. Knocking me down and keeping me down is a bit harder.

I'm convinced your a badass, but it really doesn't mean much.

I'm not your enemy unless you make me one.

[Ray H]

Oh boy, can I throw my testicles into the hat and we can see who draws the biggest ones?

[Darky]

I guess there is a fine line between a justifiable shooting and a summary execution. I guess due process is whatever the officer decides it is and how he writes it up afterwards. And then how the lawyers argue it later in court.
There is a difference in having never being found in the wrong (peer judgment) and being wrong. This part makes sense as a counter argument. Sounds like you are saying that even given the clear video of the suspect acting threateningly as he ran, the cops had to falsify a report in order to make it sound justified...


I'm also an expert pistol shot, I walk on the range cold, pull my pistol out and put the first round in the ten ring at 25 meters. I'm rarely the quickest draw and shoot, but often the most accurate. I've also been shot at and hit, I guess that qualifies as stress drill.
I'm an expert rifle shot. I typically put two out of three in the same hole with one touching at a hundred yards, three in an inch circle at two hundred and again often two touching.
I may watch a Buck for weeks (months, years) before taking my shot. If he is in my scope I own him, no rush. I study his habits and take my shot when and where I'm ready.
I taught hasty demolitions, what they now call IED's, in the military, likely before you were born. Probably spent more time snaking through the jungle or brush than you've been walking upright.
I've had my assed kicked, it always took three or more to do it. Knocking me down and keeping me down is a bit harder.

I'm convinced your a badass, but it really doesn't mean much.

I'm not your enemy unless you make me one.
The rest of this makes no sense. Nobody's trying to be a badass, and no one cares how much of a badass you used to be...What's any of it have to do with the discussion at hand?

[8Mud]

This part makes sense as a counter argument. Sounds like you are saying that even given the clear video of the suspect acting threateningly as he ran, the cops had to falsify a report in order to make it sound justified...


The rest of this makes no sense. Nobody's trying to be a badass, and no one cares how much of a badass you used to be...What's any of it have to do with the discussion at hand?

Rhetorical, maybe I should go back and study writing some more.

The point is the consequences of a shooting, any shooting, justified or not has profound and long lasting consequences.
I had five L.A. county Sheriffs, beat the tar out of me once, for no good reason. That was thirty five years ago and to tell you the truth I'll never get over it. Again rhetorical. I don't consider myself unique, I'm probably just one of thousands, many with a similar skill set as mine. As a matter of fact they may have actually done me a favor, it motivated me to become proficient. Maybe for all the wrong reasons though.
For fifteen years, I'd do 3-6 apprehensions a year, most were armed. I never felt the need to shoot anybody. I'm not saying I never got the urge to slap some motormouth up side the head though.

[Darky]

35 yrs ago, cops got away with a lot more if they felt so inclined...Today, for one, cops are video taped on a much much more common basis, not to mention their recorders, etc, but throw in the proliferation of cell phone cameras and cops have to be a lot more careful, or else people like us will be debating their actions, and they'll have to answer for themselves in court.

[8Mud]

35 yrs ago, cops got away with a lot more if they felt so inclined...Today, for one, cops are video taped on a much much more common basis, not to mention their recorders, etc, but throw in the proliferation of cell phone cameras and cops have to be a lot more careful, or else people like us will be debating their actions, and they'll have to answer for themselves in court.

First post this thread that actually makes any sense. :)

I see these videos and think, my God, are they still making the same old mistakes in the same old ways?

[8Mud]

Oh boy, can I throw my testicles into the hat and we can see who draws the biggest ones?

Really irrelevant, statistically there are 300,000 highly dangerous people walking around L.A. on any given day, about 1 and a half million that could be goaded into some sort of deadly confrontation (statistically) and about 20,000 cops. Many of the Cops never see the street. Piss off enough people and the Police really don't have chance.

[Trail-Axe]

Thats not because I want guilty people walking the street, its not because Im a defender of guilty people, its because I DO NOT want to see an innocent person suffer because of someone elses mistake. This whole "arrest them all and let the judge sort them out" or worse yet "kill them all and let god sort them out" attitude bothers be.

What if the policeman is innocent, should he not be afforded the same due process you speak of?

[Ray H]

What if the policeman is innocent, should he not be afforded the same due process you speak of?

Yes, If he is a defendant.

[Trail-Axe]

Yes, If he is a defendant.

Defendant? In a legal court, or the court of public opinion (which is where we are now)?

[x2elite]

I guess there is a fine line between a justifiable shooting and a summary execution. I guess due process is whatever the officer decides it is and how he writes it up afterwards. And then how the lawyers argue it later in court.
There is a difference in having never being found in the wrong (peer judgment) and being wrong.
I'm also an expert pistol shot, I walk on the range cold, pull my pistol out and put the first round in the ten ring at 25 meters. I'm rarely the quickest draw and shoot, but often the most accurate. I've also been shot at and hit, I guess that qualifies as stress drill.
I'm an expert rifle shot. I typically put two out of three in the same hole with one touching at a hundred yards, three in an inch circle at two hundred and again often two touching.
I may watch a Buck for weeks (months, years) before taking my shot. If he is in my scope I own him, no rush. I study his habits and take my shot when and where I'm ready.
I taught hasty demolitions, what they now call IED's, in the military, likely before you were born. Probably spent more time snaking through the jungle or brush than you've been walking upright.
I've had my assed kicked, it always took three or more to do it. Knocking me down and keeping me down is a bit harder.

I'm convinced your a badass, but it really doesn't mean much.

I'm not your enemy unless you make me one.

You are right.... you win the BadAss contest. I wasn't here to say hey look at me I am badass.... I was merely stating fact. The reason our society is the poor shape it is now, is because of the liberal hug a thug types like you, that give criminals more rights then average law abiding citizens. I never once acted out of line, as an officer, and I can personally vouch for at least 50+ other officers that never acted with anything but the highest value of human life (Whether it be a partner, innocent bystander, and yes a suspect). You act like all cops must think they have to behave like John Wayne, and prove their badassedness. That is not the case, say whatever you want, but it takes a special type of person to be a police officer. When people here gunshots they run the other way, police officers are the only ones running towards them, and they would do it any minute, on duty or off, without even thinking about it. They obviously don't do it for the money, and contrary to your belief, they do not do it because they have to prove they are a badass. I know hundreds of these types of people, and especially now that I am no longer in that line of work, have nothing but the utmost respect for them.

[Darky]

Yes, If he is a defendant.
Was the bicyclist a defendant? Was that suspect who got shot a defendant? I have a feeling that you would defend the suspect rather than the cop even in court where the cop was the defendant.

[Ray H]

Was the bicyclist a defendant? Was that suspect who got shot a defendant? I have a feeling that you would defend the suspect rather than the cop even in court where the cop was the defendant.

I would like to think I would defend whomever it was I thought was right irregardless of who writes their paycheck.

[x2elite]

So everytime an officer acts in the line of duty, he should have to be a defendant in court? Even when he is obviously acting as any other "reasonable" person would act in that exact same situation.

[Ray H]

So everytime an officer acts in the line of duty, he should have to be a defendant in court? Even when he is obviously acting as any other "reasonable" person would act in that exact same situation.

No

[msrorysddad]

so we can get this much straight. We all "basically" agree that the shots fired as seen in these tapes "seem" to be justifiable. (as shown by the poll.) However we all totally disagree on the wording used, and in all actuality we write back and forth to hear each others opinions? Would that be near enough to agree upon? As for defending the "crook" or defendant (words), I believe everyone accused of a crime deserves to have a hearing, I "FEEL" that if someone is guilty and you know it, you should not defend that person, for your own "FEELINGS" (sake). Thank you guys for putting up with me, and I hope we all do gain a bit from our banter. I am still taken aback by the ability we all have to communicate with so many, from so far at our leisure. As for 50% of cops being "good guys" for real. I figure it's just like everywhere else, you have maybe 10 to 20% that mess it up for everyone, look at the trails, how many people trash them to get us all a bad image.

[8Mud]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/07/30/AR2008073003299.html?

[x2elite]

Yeah I heard about this when it happened..... but it is no way related to the discussion at hand.

[8Mud]

Yeah I heard about this when it happened..... but it is no way related to the discussion at hand. I've declared myself the self appointed discussion monitor
Duh, the heading said Police shooting, good shoot or bad shoot? Or is my dyslexia kicking in again and it said toohs dab ro toohs doog gnitoohs ecilop?
How do you say obnoxious twit bassackwards?

[red91]

It's not Hollywood. :) Empty magazine whilst checking to see if the threat is neutralized.

Is there something wrong with one-handed firing? I didn't get the memo.


Hell no, one hand is fine. Afterall it worked well for the A-Team, and we KNOW those guys were real.

I love Hannibal Smith.

Good to see the "plan" came together.

[tbburg]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/07/30/AR2008073003299.html?
OK, awesome prank. Start delivering 15 kilos of the illegal drug of your choice to every politician in the country, sit back and watch the fireworks. Let the DEA do the dirty work. Revolution by proxy.

[8Mud]

OK, awesome prank. Start delivering 15 kilos of the illegal drug of your choice to every politician in the country, sit back and watch the fireworks. Let the DEA do the dirty work. Revolution by proxy.
I thought it was ironic they shot the dogs, I doubt it was their stash.
I've done some animal control, pepper spray works on dogs about 20 times better than people and it works well on people.
Shooting the dogs was dumb and unnecessary.
I always have to give it the mirror test. i wonder what the cops would say if you busted in their front door and shot their dogs?
I guess they hire these guys for there aggressiveness not there IQ.

[Darky]

Shooting the dogs makes sense if you believe the guy is a drug dealer. People have been known to keep guard dogs...

[Trail-Axe]

I thought it was ironic they shot the dogs, I doubt it was their stash.
I've done some animal control, pepper spray works on dogs about 20 times better than people and it works well on people.
Shooting the dogs was dumb and unnecessary.
I always have to give it the mirror test. i wonder what the cops would say if you busted in their front door and shot their dogs?
I guess they hire these guys for there aggressiveness not there IQ.

Your ignorance shines brightly. Controlling animals, and controlling suspects are two very different missions. I guess you have never busted through a door cocked and locked not knowing who or what was on the other side. The last thing on your mind is saving a dog; your looking for weapons in the hands of suspects. If a dog charges at you (or even looks like he might), you don't have time to get your pepper spray out and hope it works, you simply shoot the dog, and continue to cover any suspects that may be armed, and or continue to move through the house searching for any armed men. And if you did attempt to pepper spray a dog, you would compromise the safety of the guy next to you who is relying on you to cover your field of fire with your firearm (not a bottle of pepper spray).

[bjoehandley]

Sounds like he was set up, seeing as there were a bunch of dark colored SUV's parked on the street that aren't normally there. Wonder who he pissed off?

[8Mud]

Your ignorance shines brightly. Controlling animals, and controlling suspects are two very different missions. I guess you have never busted through a door cocked and locked not knowing who or what was on the other side. The last thing on your mind is saving a dog; your looking for weapons in the hands of suspects. If a dog charges at you (or even looks like he might), you don't have time to get your pepper spray out and hope it works, you simply shoot the dog, and continue to cover any suspects that may be armed, and or continue to move through the house searching for any armed men. And if you did attempt to pepper spray a dog, you would compromise the safety of the guy next to you who is relying on you to cover your field of fire with your firearm (not a bottle of pepper spray).
Only as a last resort.
No I wait until he is walking out of his front door in the morning snatch him up and have the cuffs on him before he can say what the truck. Or wait until he is sitting in his car, bump him from behind and snatch him when he gets out to look at the damage. Rolling road block works well. Or follow him into the mens room at his favorite watering hole. The last thing I want to do is bust in his front door into who knows what. If he has two brain cells to rub together and he is so inclined, his turf is the last place I want to provoke a confrontation. I pick the time and place.
People get locked in a mind set. Bust down the front door and bum rush the suspect on his turf, really doesn't sound like a tactical winner to me.
My own ignorance overwhelms me on occasion.
The Mayors wife loved those dogs like children, I doubt she will ever again be an advocate for the Police. I have no doubt the law suit will net more than what the pot was worth.
Last thought, if it's an attack dog, pepper spray may be more effective than shooting it. Dogs are tough, I've seen them run 50-60 yards with a rifle round through there chest. Or get back up and walk off after a head shot. You want to call BS, be my guest.

[bjoehandley]

Only as a last resort.
No I wait until he is walking out of his front door in the morning snatch him up and have the cuffs on him before he can say what the truck. Or wait until he is sitting in his car, bump him from behind and snatch him when he gets out to look at the damage. Rolling road block works well. Or follow him into the mens room at his favorite watering hole. The last thing I want to do is bust in his front door into who knows what. If he has two brain cells to rub together and he is so inclined, his turf is the last place I want to provoke a confrontation. I pick the time and place.
People get locked in a mind set. Bust down the front door and bum rush the suspect on his turf, really doesn't sound like a tactical winner to me.
My own ignorance overwhelms me on occasion.


Funny, that makes perfect sense.........then again, it is after 1am again..........;)

[Trail-Axe]

Only as a last resort.

No I wait until he is walking out of his front door in the morning snatch him up and have the cuffs on him before he can say what the truck. Or wait until he is sitting in his car, bump him from behind and snatch him when he gets out to look at the damage. Rolling road block works well. Or follow him into the men's room at his favorite watering hole. The last thing I want to do is bust in his front door into who knows what. If he has two brain cells to rub together and he is so inclined, his turf is the last place I want to provoke a confrontation. I pick the time and place.
People get locked in a mind set. Bust down the front door and bum rush the suspect on his turf, really doesn't sound like a tactical winner to me. My own ignorance overwhelms me on occasion. Sure does, and that is why you are not a tactical officer.
The Mayors wife loved those dogs like children, I doubt she will ever again be an advocate for the Police. (I doubt those who buy and sell drugs have much respect for authority to begin with) I have no doubt the law suit will net more than what the pot was worth.

If it was an arrest warrant, then fine, arrest the guy, but you don't do that on his front porch, his associates inside then have the opportunity to barricade themselves and set up for you, or just shoot you from behind a wall or window. This was a search warrant to locate drugs and other contraband at his residence. You don't get much from the guy making an unlawful arrest away from his home, when your warrant says to search his home.

When entering a persons home, the element of surprise usually works in your favor. Evidence preservation is vital, as time spent playing with the dogs may give the suspects time to take foot-bale out the back, dispose of any contraband, and or set up for you with his weapon.

[8Mud]

Do you honestly believe a half bail of pot is worth anybody dieing over, man or beast?

[8Mud]

Did you mean tactical Officer or Testicle Officer?

I subscribe to the Hubertus philosophy. Avoid unnecessary cruelty, injury or death, man or animal.

[red91]

Do you honestly believe a half bail of pot is worth anybody dieing over, man or beast?


You should meet my ex.

:skull2:

[Darky]

Do you honestly believe a half bail of pot is worth anybody dieing over, man or beast?
I like how you look just at what the article says. The article, written after the fact, knew there was nothing else there. The police going in have no idea what he has if they truly suspected it to be a drug dealer bust.

The original topic here: The people commenting said he only had a cell phone and you latched onto that saying that all he had was a cell phone, police shouldn't have shot him.

Like the old cliche goes, hind sight is 20/20. We can look at stuff from where we are now and say they should've done it differently, there was no threat. But unless we're the ones putting our lives on the line, we can't understand what goes into that decision. I know I'm going to be more likely to shoot a suspect rather than tackle him - after he's had a chance to squeeze off a few shots at me - and then see what kind of weapons he does or doesn;t have on him.

[Trail-Axe]

Do you honestly believe a half bail of pot is worth anybody dieing over, man or beast?

I believe that when a man is serving a search warrent, his life is worth protecting. If those who buy and sell drugs take it to the next level and take up their arms to protect their dope, then it becomes their choice to die; if their dogs get in the way, too sad too bad.

[Trail-Axe]

Did you mean tactical Officer or Testicle Officer?

I subscribe to the Hubertus philosophy. Avoid unnecessary cruelty, injury or death, man or animal.

The word tactical is spelled correctly. I suppose if one has no testicles, then they may have contempt for those brave men who do. Getting kids hooked on dope, which has caused injury and death, is unnecessary cruelty. If defending the dope dealing sack-less scum of the world is within your ideals of philosophy, then what does that make you?

[8Mud]

The word tactical is spelled correctly. I suppose if one has no testicles, then they may have contempt for those brave men who do. Getting kids hooked on dope, which has caused injury and death, is unnecessary cruelty. If defending the dope dealing sack-less scum of the world is within your ideals of philosophy, then what does that make you?
I think the brave ones are the ones who try to take them down without shooting them. We have a difference of opinion.
I can think of tens, if not hundreds of situations, where I could have sucked someone into a confrontation and perforated them.
The trick is to get the job done as quietly, proficiently and painlessly as possible. IMO
Don't try to paint me as a drug advocate, nothing could be farther from the truth.
I remember when a mans house was his castle. There were no "No knock laws", then it morphed into no knock when in pursuit of a felon, then into the possibility of a felony being committed inside the house. I just don't agree with the direction of the whole thing. Civil liberties being eroded and ignored.
IMO way to many people (and animals) being shot over bullshit.
It seems fairly obvious, they knew something was in the package. Just seems to me, they could have avoided the drama.
The line between the safety of the Police and public safety is getting kind of blurred IMO.
If you think it's reasonable to live in a society where a dozen cops can knock down your door, endanger your family, destroy your property and then say it was justified for their safety. Feel free, bad choice of words, accept the State is always just and right, is maybe better. They have been known to have the wrong address on more than one occasion.
I've seen the flavor of the month change over the years. From fill the house full of tear gas, through sneak and peak, to rush the door, shoot first and ask questions later.
Is it possible it's time for another metamorphoses? Maybe throw hand grenades or maybe work on process and method a little and figure out some ways safer for everybody concerned.

[Trail-Axe]

The line between the safety of the Police and public safety is getting kind of blurred IMO.

If you think it's reasonable to live in a society where a dozen cops can knock down your door, endanger your family, destroy your property and then say it was justified for their safety.

Don't try to paint me as a drug advocate, nothing could be farther from the truth

The line is only blurred because your eyes half closed and full of Mud. If one lives by the law, he does not need to fear the law. If one breaks the law, then he should be very much afraid. The police represent the law abiding people of our society. They tread a path into the pit where others fear to go. They lay down their lives, and no one pays them any attention, but the moment they falter, all hell breaks loose.

I think it is reasonable to live in a society were those who violate the law are brought to justice. Those who bring society's wolves to justice should not have to endanger themselves unnecessarily so as to appease the liberal bleeding heart, pot smoking, draft dodging, degenerates our socialist pandering society has produced.

The paint brush is in your hand, if you do not like the picture others see, use another color.

[bjoehandley]

Further info on the couple who's dogs were killed
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/story/2008/08/01/ST2008080103916.html?sid=ST2008080103916&pos=list

[8Mud]

The line is only blurred because your eyes half closed and full of Mud. If one lives by the law, he does not need to fear the law. If one breaks the law, then he should be very much afraid. The police represent the law abiding people of our society. They tread a path into the pit where others fear to go. They lay down their lives, and no one pays them any attention, but the moment they falter, all hell breaks loose.

I think it is reasonable to live in a society were those who violate the law are brought to justice. Those who bring society's wolves to justice should not have to endanger themselves unnecessarily so as to appease the liberal bleeding heart, pot smoking, draft dodging, degenerates our socialist pandering society has produced.

The paint brush is in your hand, if you do not like the picture others see, use another color.

Ok I'm convinced, shoot them all and let God sort out the guilty ones.

Do you think the Police always obey the law and only do the right thing, are ordained by God and are his instrument?
Law enforcement is a growth industry. Whatever they are doing seems to be working out well...............for them.

The neighbors cat hissed at me this morning, I felt threatened. Shoot. no shoot?

[Darky]

Ok I'm convinced, shoot them all and let God sort out the guilty ones.

Do you think the Police always obey the law and only do the right thing, are ordained by God and are his instrument?
Law enforcement is a growth industry. Whatever they are doing seems to be working out well...............for them.

The neighbors cat hissed at me this morning, I felt threatened. Shoot. no shoot?
Quit being ignorant 8Mud. You're wrong and you know it. Resorting to extremes is a sign. No body here has said "shoot them all and let God sort out the guilty ones" or anything like it. I advocate using force to defend your life or the life of an innocent. If the criminal acts as though he's a threat to yourself or others, I see no problem shooting. Yeah, it's always nice if you can take a suspect peaceably but that's not always the case. Take an officer's ability/right to defend himself, more die, fewer join. The people who complain about "unnecessary force" also complain about police taking too long to respond. Manpower is the answer to that one.

[msrorysddad]

that story has more than we're seeing. Do you not think it odd, the mayors house, no one knew who it was, a raid that quick by a swat team? I think we are lokin at politics in action. There's somethin fishy in those waters, let's keep a few eyes on it, if we can. If you figure the price of a pound in Texas is over 300$ a pound, you want me to believe that someone sent over 9k$ worth of weed to them as a set up? When I can buy a hundred bucks worth of crack and get them in more trouble? Me thinks I smell a rat. It was shipped to his wife, wonder who the neighbors are, if they wanted to get the smoke before the mayor picked it up. It just is way too much money to "get someone". I truly understand 8's argument, however I also understand that we do not live in a perfect world where everyone plays by the rules.

[8Mud]

Quit being ignorant 8Mud. You're wrong and you know it. Resorting to extremes is a sign. No body here has said "shoot them all and let God sort out the guilty ones" or anything like it. I advocate using force to defend your life or the life of an innocent. If the criminal acts as though he's a threat to yourself or others, I see no problem shooting. Yeah, it's always nice if you can take a suspect peaceably but that's not always the case. Take an officer's ability/right to defend himself, more die, fewer join. The people who complain about "unnecessary force" also complain about police taking too long to respond. Manpower is the answer to that one.

The extreme I was responding to, was the inference that the Police are always right and the criminals deserve whatever they get.
I've done some study on this. A minority is three times more likely to be shot and four times more likely to be injured during an arrest.
Last year, they finally got tired of the L.A. Sheriffs department massaging there reporting numbers and hired an independent auditor (comptroller). The reality and the reporting got so out of tilt that the Sheriff's just plain lost all credibility. And at the same time were reporting (Department of Justice Statistics) a guesstimated 33% of the actual complaints (even the Justice Department said there numbers were unreliable, but they had to accept them or risk not getting any numbers at all). And of the complaints reported 92% of the time the citizen filling the complaint was called a liar. 8% of the complaints were deemed actionable. That's not even counting the non reported incidences, you have to wonder how much of the paper work found it's way into the circular file.
You guys say there is no problem and the Police are just doing what's necessary.
I call B.S. and say something is broke and needs fixing, IMO it's been broke for a very long time.
I remember being pulled over in Florida, two young Cops emptied my ash tray onto the carpet of my car, shining the flashlight in my eyes and asking me where I came from and where I'm going. They said I looked suspicious, I said I'm a tourist and lost. Gave me a warning about about watching the road and not the street signs. At the same time I was listening to gunfire coming from across Tampa Bay, that went on most of the night.
More manpower would just mean more harassment and the shooting just keeps on keeping on.

[bjoehandley]

that story has more than we're seeing. Do you not think it odd, the mayors house, no one knew who it was, a raid that quick by a swat team? I think we are lokin at politics in action. There's somethin fishy in those waters, let's keep a few eyes on it, if we can. If you figure the price of a pound in Texas is over 300$ a pound, you want me to believe that someone sent over 9k$ worth of weed to them as a set up? When I can buy a hundred bucks worth of crack and get them in more trouble? Me thinks I smell a rat. It was shipped to his wife, wonder who the neighbors are, if they wanted to get the smoke before the mayor picked it up. It just is way too much money to "get someone". I truly understand 8's argument, however I also understand that we do not live in a perfect world where everyone plays by the rules.


That's what my line of thinking has been since I read the article the other night.

[Darky]

I understand that you had some run ins with the law. I understand they weren't pleasant. I also understand they were some 30 yrs ago almost now. It is also my belief that people who have multiple problems with law enforcement likely brought some of it on themselves. Yeah you'll say you did nothing wrong, they were jerks, etc. I've known a lot of guys who were constantly in trouble and never believed it to be their fault, but I also knew their attitude and it was the type that on a routine stop would get them into trouble.
I don't automatically and unconditionally side with the police, but if there is doubt I will assume innocence until proven guilty, on the part of the cop. He may not be perfect, but he has chosen a career that entails making a stand for law. Whereas the suspect is someone who at best was in the wrong place at the wrong time, but likely did something to arouse suspicion.

[8Mud]

I understand that you had some run ins with the law. I understand they weren't pleasant. I also understand they were some 30 yrs ago almost now. It is also my belief that people who have multiple problems with law enforcement likely brought some of it on themselves. Yeah you'll say you did nothing wrong, they were jerks, etc. I've known a lot of guys who were constantly in trouble and never believed it to be their fault, but I also knew their attitude and it was the type that on a routine stop would get them into trouble.
I don't automatically and unconditionally side with the police, but if there is doubt I will assume innocence until proven guilty, on the part of the cop. He may not be perfect, but he has chosen a career that entails making a stand for law. Whereas the suspect is someone who at best was in the wrong place at the wrong time, but likely did something to arouse suspicion.

You are likely correct, my biggest problem was I always thought and still do, I'm there equal and not there minion. I look them in the eye.
I've had some unpleasant experiences since I had my skull fractured 30 years ago, minor but still left a bad taste in my mouth. Funny I can drive for decades around the world and have little or no trouble at all. It seems more geographical than anything I do. I periodically make it back to the States, some cities and other geographical areas I avoid.
I grant you I look like a wolf and seem to raise the testosterone levels in those with small minds.
I ran all over the back roads of Croatia for almost a year, a semi war zone, everybody and his brother had an AK 47. Never got a scratch, got bad mouthed a few times from young punks in uniform, but that was it. Never roughed up or abused. Some places it's endemic, some it isn't.
I think human rights should start at home and then be exported around the world. I think the people that accept Police abuse as a necessary evil, just don't know any better and may think it's the same all over. I think they should get out more and gain some perspective.
Same person, two different locations, regular problems, no problems. It may just be I don't fit in some places, it may be some places are more trouble prone than others.

[8Mud]

That's what my line of thinking has been since I read the article the other night.
http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/local/bal-mayoremail0808,0,4607054.story

[8Mud]

http://www.examiner.com/a-1529822%7EBerwyn_Heights_mayor_cleared_of_drug_cha rges.html

[msrorysddad]

8, you hit it pretty close when you stated maybe it's your looks. I have either been bald, or worn a Mohawk, have more tattoos than the college crowd (mostly skulls, name in old english on the back of my neck). We gotta remember that others are only human, as we are also. I believe the militarization of our peace officers is a bad thing (combat style clothing, training). I am all for protecting our police, however the training at some academies is an us against them type thing. I know that the Houston p.d. trains under this mentality. I believe there are some whom will answer to nothing but violence, and in some situations that they "deserve what they get" like the young man in the videos in question. I live in a small town and try my best to keep an open dialog with the officers that work for me. You must remember that you speak of other areas of the world. Do people in those areas teach their offspring to flip the cops off, to disrespect them? I know people here that do. Then they wonder why they are treated unfairly? Look at our schools, at the way people treat others on the street. I look like a killer, and still am amazed at the gall of some people that try to push me around, or that try to intimidate me. A lot of people were raised with the mentality that they can do what they want and get away with it. It is not just "the cops" I'll give you a smooth grand to spend a day walking the streets of Houston I pick 'em without gettin your ass kicked by a gang of thugs. Not sayin you're not tough, just sayin too many people do not give a damn about anyone but themselves. The same thugs that would rob/beat/kill you or me, are some of the same that we see the news media get all wound up about. I will say, responsibility, honor, dignity, untill we instill it in our youth we are a doomed society. As for the weed deal, can we check the column that states I would never pick up a package and bring it in my home without knowin what it contained? It still is striking me as odd that the label was addressed to his wife? I used to get things shipped to me and always made sure the label was to a fictitious name. I used to receive a package, put it on the table, if no one kicked my door in I opened it the next day, if I ever got run on I was gonna say I didn't know what it was and was gonna return to sender the next day. (speaking hypothetically)

[8Mud]

8, you hit it pretty close when you stated maybe it's your looks. I have either been bald, or worn a Mohawk, have more tattoos than the college crowd (mostly skulls, name in old english on the back of my neck). We gotta remember that others are only human, as we are also. I believe the militarization of our peace officers is a bad thing (combat style clothing, training). I am all for protecting our police, however the training at some academies is an us against them type thing. I know that the Houston p.d. trains under this mentality. I believe there are some whom will answer to nothing but violence, and in some situations that they "deserve what they get" like the young man in the videos in question. I live in a small town and try my best to keep an open dialog with the officers that work for me. You must remember that you speak of other areas of the world. Do people in those areas teach their offspring to flip the cops off, to disrespect them? I know people here that do. Then they wonder why they are treated unfairly? Look at our schools, at the way people treat others on the street. I look like a killer, and still am amazed at the gall of some people that try to push me around, or that try to intimidate me. A lot of people were raised with the mentality that they can do what they want and get away with it. It is not just "the cops" I'll give you a smooth grand to spend a day walking the streets of Houston I pick 'em without gettin your ass kicked by a gang of thugs. Not sayin you're not tough, just sayin too many people do not give a damn about anyone but themselves. The same thugs that would rob/beat/kill you or me, are some of the same that we see the news media get all wound up about. I will say, responsibility, honor, dignity, untill we instill it in our youth we are a doomed society. As for the weed deal, can we check the column that states I would never pick up a package and bring it in my home without knowin what it contained? It still is striking me as odd that the label was addressed to his wife? I used to get things shipped to me and always made sure the label was to a fictitious name. I used to receive a package, put it on the table, if no one kicked my door in I opened it the next day, if I ever got run on I was gonna say I didn't know what it was and was gonna return to sender the next day. (speaking hypothetically)

My son just got busted for paying for an order and delivery (five years ago, I guess the computers were a bit back logged). Dumbarse agreed to pay (wrote a bank transfer) for a package delivered to a third party (mail order marijuana. one guy ordered it, my son payed for it and it was delivered to somebody else). One of his so called buddies asked him for a favor, Blah. Blah, Blah I don't have enough money in my account, I'll give you the cash and you write a check and he actually did it. Cost him $400 in fines. I doubt it was for my son, he lacks the opportunity to get in too much trouble. I keep a pretty close eye on him. His Doctor would tip me off if anything major showed up in his blood or urine. I really doubt he was mixed up in it, more likely he was just a dupe.
I mailed a package for a neighbor, the dumb arse packed German Salami in the package for his aunt in Texas, cost me $350 in fines.
In our family we tell each other if we are expecting a package. If nobody is expecting one, we don't open it, to many book scams and other, if you open it you bought it scams going on.

North Carolina and Tennessee both have a marijuana tax stamp laws on the books. The federal Marijuana tax has been around since 1937. Which seems more productive a tax bill for way more than the drugs are worth or storming the door and killing the dogs.

[bjoehandley]

Looks like the FBI is investigating that SWAT team!
http://www.examiner.com/a-1527135~FBI_opens_probe_of_SWAT_team_raid_that_led _to_death_of_mayor_s_dogs.html

SOunds like the departement that did that thinks they were i teh right, sounds like the department that arrested a woman for leaving her daughter in a car parked 30ft from where she was standing.....while the other daughter and her friend were donating to the Salvation Army!