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ax 15 overdrive?

emr1101

NAXJA Forum User
Location
Raleigh, NC
Hey im curious, is 5th in a ax15 "overdrive"? What exactly does overdrive mean? I thought before it was just like a name for the highest gear, usually not used in towing and usually used only for highway driving. But i was looking at something about a NV3550 or something and it mentioned something about "improper use of the over drive gear can damage it".... Does that mean overdrive is like a different type of gear? I always noticed my 5th gear seems to be a lil farther inside my gearbox than 1st-4th, perhaps its a different type of gear? Idk - someone educate me on overdrive!!!
 
overdrive refers to the gear's ratio and has nothing to do with where being in gear feels like in the gearbox. a gear is overdrive if it's less than 1:1, and the ax-15 OD is approximately .79, if i am correct.

just double checked and here are the ratios on each gear:
AX15 - 3.83 2.33 1.44 1.00 0.79 4.22(rev)
 
I see, so the it is an overdrive gear? So then refering to that part about being able to damage an over drive gear, could you damage it any more than a regular gear? I.E., is it the same type of gear, just much higher?
 
yes it's the same type of gear. if it's not going into gear well, it's probably in your syncros.


this should be in OEM tech...
 
emr1101 said:
I see, so the it is an overdrive gear? So then refering to that part about being able to damage an over drive gear, could you damage it any more than a regular gear? I.E., is it the same type of gear, just much higher?

Same type of gear, just a different ratio.

A "low" gear usually has a (numerically) high ratio - for instance, the "Granny low" in the SM420 runs down around 6.5-7.0:1 This means that the output shaft turns once for every six and a half to seven turns of the input shaft. The reduction in speed is accompanied by an increase in torque.

Transmission ratios run from "low" up to a "direct drive" (1.0:1), and then anything past that is "overdrive". In the case of an overdrive, the ratio will be <1:1 (for instance, the 0.79:1 stated earlier. I'd have to look that up to confirm, but 21-22% sounds about right for the AX-15.)

Some six-speed transmissions have a "double overdrive", where fifth and sixth gears both have a ratio lower than 1:1 (usually something like 0.75:1 and 0.6:1, from what I've seen.)

You saw me mention "% overdrive" - that's simple. If you have a "25% overdrive" on a gearbox, that simply means that the overdrive ratio is 0.75:1 (25% OD = 100%-25% = 75% gear ratio.)

Gear ratios are "input:eek:utput", and are usually expressed as "input:1". This means that for every "input" times the input shaft turns, the output shaft turns once.

Gear ratios numerically larger than 1:1 are torque multipliers, while gear ratios numericall smaller than 1:1 are torque dividers (but they increase output speed relative to input speed.)

Let's take a hypothetical powertrain -
Engine Output: 100 pound-feet at 1000rpm
Transmission: Five-speed manual with ratios of 7.5:1, 3.5:1, 1.75:1, 1.00:1, 0.75:1 (trying to keep the maths simple...)

First gear would really only be used when towing or hauling - it fits in the "Granny low" class. It's good for getting a load moving, but not worth much for speed. In first gear, you're looking at an output speed of 133-1/3rpm (1000/7.5,) but an output torque of 7,500 pound-feet. This would be further multiplied by the axle gear ratio (invariably numerically higher than 1:1,) so the output torque could be significant. Now you see how those large Diesels can get forty-tonne loads moving without stalling out...

Second gear would net you an output torque of 3,500 pound-feet (again, multiplied by the axle ratio,) with an output speed of 285.7rpm. Now you can turn your wheels a little faster...

Third gear? 1,750 pound-feet at 571.4rpm.

Fourth gear? Direct drive - 1,000 pound-feet at 1,000rpm.

Overdrive is only used on the highway for good reason. By that time, you don't need much torque to keep the load moving (inertia handles the rest for you,) but you need to bring up output speed so you can turn your wheels faster. OD, in this case, would give you 750 pound-feet at 1333-1/3rpm.

Of course, this is a simplified example - I haven't taken tyre size into account, nor an actualised power output curve, rear axle ratio, ... However, it should give you the idea. I will summarise below

Input Torque Input RPM Ratio Output Torque Output RPM
1000 lb-ft 1000 7.50:1 7,500 lb-ft 133-1/3
1000 lb-ft 1000 3.50:1 3,500 lb-ft ~285-3/4
1000 lb-ft 1000 1.75:1 1,750 lb-ft ~521-2/5
1000 lb-ft 1000 1.00:1 1,000 lb-ft 1000
1000 lb-ft 1000 0.75:1 750 lb-ft 1333-1/3

Have you ever looked at a tractor? I learned to drive ('way back when, I was about seven) on an old Massey-Ferguson. Thing actually had two gearboxes - a six-speed manual (six forward, one reverse, no OD) and a "three-way gear splitter" box behind it (one "underdrive" range, direct drive, and one "overdrive" range. I think the "underdrive" was about 2.5:1, and the overdrive was somewhere around 30%, or 0.70:1)

This actually gave an effective eighteen forward gear ratios and three reverse gear ratios. This can be very useful on a tractor - but not so much on a road car. However, you can get "overdrive" or "underdrive" boxes that fit between the transmission and transfer case to give you more ranges (the "low" range in a transfer case is technically an "underdrive" range - since it's lower - numerically higher - than "direct" drive.)

This is probably more than you were initially asking for, but read over it a few times and it will start to make more sense to you. This is the kind of thing we're talking about when we get heavily into planning to complement an engine mod selection with transmission gearing, axle gearing, overdrive/underdrive, tyre selection, ... for a dual-purpose rig.
 
5-90 said:
Same type of gear, just a different ratio.

A "low" gear usually has a (numerically) high ratio - for instance, the "Granny low" in the SM420 runs down around 6.5-7.0:1 This means that the output shaft turns once for every six and a half to seven turns of the input shaft. The reduction in speed is accompanied by an increase in torque.

Transmission ratios run from "low" up to a "direct drive" (1.0:1), and then anything past that is "overdrive". In the case of an overdrive, the ratio will be <1:1 (for instance, the 0.79:1 stated earlier. I'd have to look that up to confirm, but 21-22% sounds about right for the AX-15.)

Some six-speed transmissions have a "double overdrive", where fifth and sixth gears both have a ratio lower than 1:1 (usually something like 0.75:1 and 0.6:1, from what I've seen.)

You saw me mention "% overdrive" - that's simple. If you have a "25% overdrive" on a gearbox, that simply means that the overdrive ratio is 0.75:1 (25% OD = 100%-25% = 75% gear ratio.)

Gear ratios are "input:eek:utput", and are usually expressed as "input:1". This means that for every "input" times the input shaft turns, the output shaft turns once.

Gear ratios numerically larger than 1:1 are torque multipliers, while gear ratios numericall smaller than 1:1 are torque dividers (but they increase output speed relative to input speed.)

Let's take a hypothetical powertrain -
Engine Output: 100 pound-feet at 1000rpm
Transmission: Five-speed manual with ratios of 7.5:1, 3.5:1, 1.75:1, 1.00:1, 0.75:1 (trying to keep the maths simple...)

First gear would really only be used when towing or hauling - it fits in the "Granny low" class. It's good for getting a load moving, but not worth much for speed. In first gear, you're looking at an output speed of 133-1/3rpm (1000/7.5,) but an output torque of 7,500 pound-feet. This would be further multiplied by the axle gear ratio (invariably numerically higher than 1:1,) so the output torque could be significant. Now you see how those large Diesels can get forty-tonne loads moving without stalling out...

Second gear would net you an output torque of 3,500 pound-feet (again, multiplied by the axle ratio,) with an output speed of 285.7rpm. Now you can turn your wheels a little faster...

Third gear? 1,750 pound-feet at 571.4rpm.

Fourth gear? Direct drive - 1,000 pound-feet at 1,000rpm.

Overdrive is only used on the highway for good reason. By that time, you don't need much torque to keep the load moving (inertia handles the rest for you,) but you need to bring up output speed so you can turn your wheels faster. OD, in this case, would give you 750 pound-feet at 1333-1/3rpm.

Of course, this is a simplified example - I haven't taken tyre size into account, nor an actualised power output curve, rear axle ratio, ... However, it should give you the idea. I will summarise below

Input Torque Input RPM Ratio Output Torque Output RPM
1000 lb-ft 1000 7.50:1 7,500 lb-ft 133-1/3
1000 lb-ft 1000 3.50:1 3,500 lb-ft ~285-3/4
1000 lb-ft 1000 1.75:1 1,750 lb-ft ~521-2/5
1000 lb-ft 1000 1.00:1 1,000 lb-ft 1000
1000 lb-ft 1000 0.75:1 750 lb-ft 1333-1/3

Have you ever looked at a tractor? I learned to drive ('way back when, I was about seven) on an old Massey-Ferguson. Thing actually had two gearboxes - a six-speed manual (six forward, one reverse, no OD) and a "three-way gear splitter" box behind it (one "underdrive" range, direct drive, and one "overdrive" range. I think the "underdrive" was about 2.5:1, and the overdrive was somewhere around 30%, or 0.70:1)

This actually gave an effective eighteen forward gear ratios and three reverse gear ratios. This can be very useful on a tractor - but not so much on a road car. However, you can get "overdrive" or "underdrive" boxes that fit between the transmission and transfer case to give you more ranges (the "low" range in a transfer case is technically an "underdrive" range - since it's lower - numerically higher - than "direct" drive.)

This is probably more than you were initially asking for, but read over it a few times and it will start to make more sense to you. This is the kind of thing we're talking about when we get heavily into planning to complement an engine mod selection with transmission gearing, axle gearing, overdrive/underdrive, tyre selection, ... for a dual-purpose rig.

Wow! Thanks a lot man, that does help. My axle ratios are off, so i cant really use 5th on the highway much, ironically i can in the city if im on a flat surface doing at least 45mph. Isn't manual trans tech fun????!! Thanks for the help guys
 
emr1101 said:
Wow! Thanks a lot man, that does help. My axle ratios are off, so i cant really use 5th on the highway much, ironically i can in the city if im on a flat surface doing at least 45mph. Isn't manual trans tech fun????!! Thanks for the help guys

Manuals are easy - it's autos that are a pain (hydraulics and such. It's also easier to figure ratios on spur gears than it is to figure for planetary gearsets...)

When you say "off," what do you mean? If you have the AX-15, you probably have 3.07:1 in the rear axle (dumb idea, but they didn't ask me...) unless you've changed it. What gear ratio would work better? Dunno - what tyres are you running?
 
5-90 said:
Same type of gear, just a different ratio.

A "low" gear usually has a (numerically) high ratio - for instance, the "Granny low" in the SM420 runs down around 6.5-7.0:1 This means that the output shaft turns once for every six and a half to seven turns of the input shaft. The reduction in speed is accompanied by an increase in torque.

Transmission ratios run from "low" up to a "direct drive" (1.0:1), and then anything past that is "overdrive". In the case of an overdrive, the ratio will be <1:1 (for instance, the 0.79:1 stated earlier. I'd have to look that up to confirm, but 21-22% sounds about right for the AX-15.)

Some six-speed transmissions have a "double overdrive", where fifth and sixth gears both have a ratio lower than 1:1 (usually something like 0.75:1 and 0.6:1, from what I've seen.)

You saw me mention "% overdrive" - that's simple. If you have a "25% overdrive" on a gearbox, that simply means that the overdrive ratio is 0.75:1 (25% OD = 100%-25% = 75% gear ratio.)

Gear ratios are "input:eek:utput", and are usually expressed as "input:1". This means that for every "input" times the input shaft turns, the output shaft turns once.

Gear ratios numerically larger than 1:1 are torque multipliers, while gear ratios numericall smaller than 1:1 are torque dividers (but they increase output speed relative to input speed.)

Let's take a hypothetical powertrain -
Engine Output: 100 pound-feet at 1000rpm
Transmission: Five-speed manual with ratios of 7.5:1, 3.5:1, 1.75:1, 1.00:1, 0.75:1 (trying to keep the maths simple...)

First gear would really only be used when towing or hauling - it fits in the "Granny low" class. It's good for getting a load moving, but not worth much for speed. In first gear, you're looking at an output speed of 133-1/3rpm (1000/7.5,) but an output torque of 7,500 pound-feet. This would be further multiplied by the axle gear ratio (invariably numerically higher than 1:1,) so the output torque could be significant. Now you see how those large Diesels can get forty-tonne loads moving without stalling out...

Second gear would net you an output torque of 3,500 pound-feet (again, multiplied by the axle ratio,) with an output speed of 285.7rpm. Now you can turn your wheels a little faster...

Third gear? 1,750 pound-feet at 571.4rpm.

Fourth gear? Direct drive - 1,000 pound-feet at 1,000rpm.

Overdrive is only used on the highway for good reason. By that time, you don't need much torque to keep the load moving (inertia handles the rest for you,) but you need to bring up output speed so you can turn your wheels faster. OD, in this case, would give you 750 pound-feet at 1333-1/3rpm.

Of course, this is a simplified example - I haven't taken tyre size into account, nor an actualised power output curve, rear axle ratio, ... However, it should give you the idea. I will summarise below

Input Torque Input RPM Ratio Output Torque Output RPM
1000 lb-ft 1000 7.50:1 7,500 lb-ft 133-1/3
1000 lb-ft 1000 3.50:1 3,500 lb-ft ~285-3/4
1000 lb-ft 1000 1.75:1 1,750 lb-ft ~521-2/5
1000 lb-ft 1000 1.00:1 1,000 lb-ft 1000
1000 lb-ft 1000 0.75:1 750 lb-ft 1333-1/3

Have you ever looked at a tractor? I learned to drive ('way back when, I was about seven) on an old Massey-Ferguson. Thing actually had two gearboxes - a six-speed manual (six forward, one reverse, no OD) and a "three-way gear splitter" box behind it (one "underdrive" range, direct drive, and one "overdrive" range. I think the "underdrive" was about 2.5:1, and the overdrive was somewhere around 30%, or 0.70:1)

This actually gave an effective eighteen forward gear ratios and three reverse gear ratios. This can be very useful on a tractor - but not so much on a road car. However, you can get "overdrive" or "underdrive" boxes that fit between the transmission and transfer case to give you more ranges (the "low" range in a transfer case is technically an "underdrive" range - since it's lower - numerically higher - than "direct" drive.)

This is probably more than you were initially asking for, but read over it a few times and it will start to make more sense to you. This is the kind of thing we're talking about when we get heavily into planning to complement an engine mod selection with transmission gearing, axle gearing, overdrive/underdrive, tyre selection, ... for a dual-purpose rig.

that's an excellent description and lots of really good, to-the-point info
 
5-90 said:
Manuals are easy - it's autos that are a pain (hydraulics and such. It's also easier to figure ratios on spur gears than it is to figure for planetary gearsets...)

When you say "off," what do you mean? If you have the AX-15, you probably have 3.07:1 in the rear axle (dumb idea, but they didn't ask me...) unless you've changed it. What gear ratio would work better? Dunno - what tyres are you running?

Yea im on 3.07s. That is an under geared ration and honestly it doesnt bother me too much. that is on 32" tires, im going to 35s. When i do im going to used 4.10s (prob not the best ratio, but good enough). Reason im doing 4.10s is that im swappin in axles with 4.10 ratios
 
emr1101 said:
Yea im on 3.07s. That is an under geared ration and honestly it doesnt bother me too much. that is on 32" tires, im going to 35s. When i do im going to used 4.10s (prob not the best ratio, but good enough). Reason im doing 4.10s is that im swappin in axles with 4.10 ratios

Yeah - I remember crunching the numbers on this (I'd have to fire up the WABAC to find my notes...) but I seem to recall that 3.73 or 4.10 worked well for tyres up to ~33" for a DD. So, that's not too bad.

3.07 is woefully mismatched to the manual gearbox - I got a marked increase in fuel mileage when I stopped using fifth gear in my 88 (both the Peugeot and the AX-15 in a later conversion. I'll probably go up to about a 4.10 once I get axles I want to swap in.)
 
emr1101 said:
yea those are fine, gear too low and you wont be able to use 1st....

How did you get MORE mpg's by not using 5th?

Because the crankshaft speed @ cruising speed in fifth gear (accounting for axle ratio and using 31" tyres) was well below the peak torque output rpm of the engine - I wasn't lugging the engine, but I did get close sometimes.

I quit using fifth gear, and the vehicle was more responsive and I picked up about 3mpg. I then crunched the numbers and experimented for four months or so, and the reason for getting better mileage made more sense (something I learned in Ground School 'way back when - "Peak Torque = Peak Range." This applies to piston-driven aircraft, but holds for about anything with a piston engine once you know the power output curves.)

For 31" tyres and the OD ratio given in the AX-15, I seem to want to think that the "ideal" axle ratio is ~3.85-3.90:1, meaning either 3.73 or 4.10 gearing should give best results. I'd go with 4.10:1, but I tend to haul and tow a fair bit, so the lower ratio would complement that well.

Lower RPM does not always equal higher mileage - that's just a bill of goods that has been unconsciously sold to us by automotive marketing. They don't come right out and say so, but they keep gearing vehicles to slow crankshaft speeds in O/D at freeway speeds, and most people just don't know any better.

We've bashed this around pretty heavily before - so you can search it up. I'm just not sure what search strings you'd use (something about fuel mileage, coupled with my moniker, and either in OEM tech or Non-Tech.)

The theory is sound, and this has been a known principle for quite a number of years (as I said, I learned it in FAA Ground School back in 1985. My granddad learned it when he took Ground School - ca. 1950. Also, it's covered in quite a few of the "Practical Theory" books I've got around here, mainly The Internal Combustion Engine in Theory and Practice Vol. 1 & 2 by Charles Fayette Taylor, MIT Press.)
 
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